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YF-23 posted:Liberal capitalists use it as an argument, and it's an attractive one to make so it gets adopted by others easily. It is a bad argument, however, because it implicitly erodes the humanitarian argument; if we should be accepting of refugees because they're good for the economy, and it turns out that they're bad for the economy, the person that made the initial argument now has to either back away from supporting a welcoming attitude to refugees, or fall back to the humanitarian argument which renders it secondary. Well, you see, that's the problem - people have to resort to economical arguments because that's all that works with the right wing - "IS THIS GOOD FOR MY POCKETS? NO? gently caress YOU!" You can't really use humanitarian arguments (which, in fact, are THE reason we should help refugees) with someone who only cares about his own financial status
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Jun 22, 2017 13:02
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GaussianCopula posted:You see, the article you linked talks about an migrant whose "Duldung" expired, which means in the eyes of the German state he is no refugee and never was. If he were a refugee the German state would care for him. Perhaps they should be forced to wear some badge, like say, a yellow arrow, to show that they are merely "migrants" and not "refugees" and therefore do not deserve any sort of help or empathy. Imagine if someone would confuse them with people who need help! It'd be terrible!
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Jun 22, 2017 13:04
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Cat Mattress posted:Checks and balances.
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Jun 22, 2017 13:05
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Invented to cripple the state against powerful monied interests. 
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Jun 22, 2017 13:16
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Cat Mattress posted:Perhaps they should be forced to wear some badge, like say, a yellow arrow, to show that they are merely "migrants" and not "refugees" and therefore do not deserve any sort of help or empathy. Imagine if someone would confuse them with people who need help! It'd be terrible! Even illegal migrants are entitled to help from the state until they are deported - unless they want to prevent the state from enacting decisions by the state and therefore go underground, in which case it's very difficult for the state to help them, because they are actively preventing the state from having contact with them.
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Jun 22, 2017 13:28
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Invented to cripple the state against powerful monied interests.    liked this posts
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Jun 22, 2017 13:30
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orange sky posted:Well, you see, that's the problem - people have to resort to economical arguments because that's all that works with the right wing - "IS THIS GOOD FOR MY POCKETS? NO? gently caress YOU!" The problem is that, well, this is the sort of thing that pulls people from the left to the centre. They try to sell an argument they themselves don't necessarily believe in to people that might believe it, and over time start believing it themselves. The argument that immigrants are good for the economy should never be the primary argument for welcoming immigrants and refugees. You can use it to supplement the humanitarian argument, but if you ever start actually focusing on it, you're going to get a lot of people thinking "we should do what's best for the economy" instead of "we should do what's right", and when those two might no longer coincide they'll stick with the former rather than the latter.
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Jun 22, 2017 13:44
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R. Mute posted:Said the Dutchman. We haven't elected into power anyone quite as preposterous as those countries. Yet. Edit: Actually I just remembered the antics of some of the LPF ministers. gently caress this loving country. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Jun 22, 2017 |
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Jun 22, 2017 13:59
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Phlegmish posted:What is the reason that he's not allowed to be a nationalist? Amazingly, not every politician is obligated to be either a postmodern idpol leftist or a liberal (and usually both at the same time). If there were more Mélenchons, the left probably wouldn't have lost half its electorate to the far right. Nationalism is 'idpol', its loving Ur 'idpol'.
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Jun 22, 2017 14:28
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khwarezm posted:Nationalism is 'idpol', its loving Ur 'idpol'.
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Jun 22, 2017 14:52
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GaussianCopula posted:Even illegal migrants are entitled to help from the state until they are deported - unless they want to prevent the state from enacting decisions by the state and therefore go underground, in which case it's very difficult for the state to help them, because they are actively preventing the state from having contact with them. Is this a joke? Are you joking? No, of course you're not. You genuinely do believe that people you deny aid and shelter to have only themselves to blame for starving.
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Jun 22, 2017 16:00
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lollontee posted:Is this a joke? Are you joking? No, of course you're not. You genuinely do believe that people you deny aid and shelter to have only themselves to blame for starving. The state can't help you if you don't want any contact with the state - this should be pretty obvious.
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Jun 22, 2017 16:08
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GaussianCopula posted:The state can't help you if you don't want any contact with the state - this should be pretty obvious. No, no it should not be. I only wonder what really lies behind your apparent incapacity to imagine why anyone would object to resettlement so much as to not board the train car. Except that I don't, really.
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Jun 22, 2017 16:21
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GaussianCopula posted:The state can't help you if you don't want any contact with the state - this should be pretty obvious. A=A
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Jun 22, 2017 16:43
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S=S
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Jun 22, 2017 17:46
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GaussianCopula posted:So why is Greece doing the wrong thing and forcing refugees into prostitution instead of actually taking care of them?  e: jesus loving christ! GaussianCopula posted:You see, the article you linked talks about an migrant whose "Duldung" expired, which means in the eyes of the German state he is no refugee and never was. If he were a refugee the German state would care for him.
MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Jun 22, 2017 |
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Jun 22, 2017 20:14
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Einbauschrank posted:He really seems keen on undoing 70 years of amitié franco-allemand and the mutual development of European integration. Not being able to bear the sight of a symbol of the European attempt to overcome lovely nationalism in a national parliament makes you look like a lovely nationalist. It's the kind if stuff you'd expect from UKIP or the AfD. For the life of me I can't understand why there doesn't seem to be a "hard left wing" europhile politician in the entire continent when the workers movement was internationalist from the start and only by pooling and negotiating together can the european workers get critical mass to defy the status quo. I serious can't understand why the left doesn't try to coordinate and mutually support like it used to. You'd imagine it would be much easier nowadays what with instant communication and not being on the run from literal fascist governments. The system can still be fixed, the only way forward is to fix it as the alternative of throwing everything to the dogs and everyone for itself once again like in the old days would be too terrible to imagine. Yet we're going at it on our own and being taken out piecemeal. It's clearly not working so whyyyyyyyyyyyyyy? You'd expect there would be someone, even if they got few votes but there's seemingly no one. e: By the way I'm not talking about organizing an insurrection but poo poo like trying to homogenize worker protection laws, salaries, fiscal evasion, taxation of capital and corporations, etc throughout Europe, same way trade unions organize to negotiate with the capital owners. MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Jun 22, 2017 |
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Jun 22, 2017 20:25
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MeLKoR posted:For the life of me I can't understand why there doesn't seem to be a "hard left wing" europhile politician in the entire continent when the workers movement was internationalist from the start and only by pooling and negotiating together can the european workers get critical mass to defy the status quo. I serious can't understand why the left doesn't try to coordinate and mutually support like it used to. You'd imagine it would be much easier nowadays what with instant communication and not being on the run from literal fascist governments. The system can still be fixed, the only way forward is to fix it as the alternative of throwing everything to the dogs and everyone for itself once again like in the old days would be too terrible to imagine. Yet we're going at it on our own and being taken out piecemeal. It's clearly not working so whyyyyyyyyyyyyyy? You'd expect there would be someone, even if they got few votes but there's seemingly no one. It's very simple - the rich countries don't want international socialism because if you average out the standard of living even the relatively poor people in those countries would be worse off and in the poor countries they have experience with socialism/communism and it's not remembered to fondly.
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Jun 22, 2017 20:41
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It's called socialism in one country, look it up.
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Jun 22, 2017 20:44
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GaussianCopula posted:It's very simple - the rich countries don't want international socialism because if you average out the standard of living even the relatively poor people in those countries would be worse off and in the poor countries they have experience with socialism/communism and it's not remembered to fondly. Oh Brave New World where closing off tax heavens and putting and end to Dutch-Irish and similar poo poo is now dangerous marxism. We go, singing and laughing, racing to the bottom.
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Jun 22, 2017 20:46
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MeLKoR posted:Oh Brave New World where closing off tax heavens and putting and end to Dutch-Irish and similar poo poo is now dangerous marxism. We go, singing and laughing, racing to the bottom. You are aware that Wolfgang Schäuble is leading the fight in this respect - no need to elect some corrupt lefist
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Jun 22, 2017 21:54
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It still is a good question though. The hard left seems unable to form some sort of EU-wide movement so of course the globalist soft left/neolibs fill that void. I'm sure a lot of people would support a more socialist movement if it didn't mean throwing their European friends or family under the bus as you go. How many Alsaciens would be drawn to Mélenchon, save for the fact that they know people across the Rhine or like to go shopping there? Etc.
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Jun 22, 2017 22:03
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The EU governments have done their darnest to delegitimise pro European left movements like SYRIZA and Podemos so it really shouldn't be much surprise.
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Jun 22, 2017 22:28
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Deltasquid posted:It still is a good question though. The hard left seems unable to form some sort of EU-wide movement so of course the globalist soft left/neolibs fill that void. I'm sure a lot of people would support a more socialist movement if it didn't mean throwing their European friends or family under the bus as you go. How many Alsaciens would be drawn to Mélenchon, save for the fact that they know people across the Rhine or like to go shopping there? Etc. The international socialist movement tore itself apart in ideological battles from the 50's onward and then in the aftermath in the 80's created an exclusive self-satisfied club for extermely woke assholes. Not exactly an atmospere conducive for wide, mass-based movements capable of organizing the cooperation of vast numbers of people with differing opinions, based on compromise and commonality as workers. The Left did a lot of damage to itself with identity politics in 90's, and we're only just now starting to recover. Practical questions of actually building a political movement tended to take a back seat when party leadership was more interested in chasing out vile Trotskyists and (more recently) secret racists and misogynists. Give it a bit of time, maybe consider getting out there and helping to build those organizations. They do actually need to be built first, before they can be used to organize a movement, as I'm sure you know. A lot of what was built in the first half of the century got neglected and just plain fell apart because nobody gave a poo poo in the meantime, and we've got a lot of rebuilding to do.
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Jun 22, 2017 23:36
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YF-23 posted:The EU governments have done their darnest to delegitimise pro European left movements like SYRIZA and Podemos so it really shouldn't be much surprise. Nothing is preventing some europhile left-wing politician in Spain from publicly and privately establishing contacts and try to create a common platform/vision with europhile left-wing politicians in Slovenia, the Netherlands and Croatia. You don't need an EU parliament group to organize with people from other countries and create a popular movement. The problem is that they just aren't there, what real left wing politicians there are are invariably euroskeptic if not europhobic and the europhiles are neoliberal "socialists" at best. Wasn't "workers of the world, unite" supposed to be like a core element of left ideology? MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Jun 23, 2017 |
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Jun 23, 2017 01:24
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MeLKoR posted:Nothing is preventing some europhile left-wing politician in Spain from publicly and privately establishing contacts and try to create a common platform/vision with europhile left-wing politicians in Slovenia, the Netherlands and Croatia. You don't need an EU parliament group to organize with people from other countries and create a popular movement. The problem is that they just aren't there, what real left wing politicians there are are invariably euroskeptic if not europhobic and the europhiles are neoliberal "socialists" at best. DiEM is a thing.
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Jun 23, 2017 01:26
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YF-23 posted:DiEM is a thing. Shame that Varoufakis will forever be remembered as the man that bluffed with nothing in his hand and got called out on it.
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Jun 23, 2017 01:29
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MeLKoR posted:For the life of me I can't understand why there doesn't seem to be a "hard left wing" europhile politician in the entire continent when the workers movement was internationalist from the start and only by pooling and negotiating together can the european workers get critical mass to defy the status quo. In all the former Soviet state, left wing policies are associated with Russian oppression and therefore will never be supported in any way, shape, or form for the foreseeable future. Then you have a few western countries that make their wealth from tax fraud, so their entire way of life is based on siding with the FYGM types of the entire continent; they too will never support real left-wing policies. Every major decision in Europe requires unanimous approval, ergo, left-wing reforms of the EU are entirely impossible. If you're a left-wing europhile, you either realize that and your European project can only be possible if you destroy the actually existing European Union on the hope that a new one can be built on its ashes, or you're too dumb to ever succeed at becoming relevant.
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Jun 23, 2017 01:30
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MeLKoR posted:Shame that Varoufakis will forever be remembered as the man that bluffed with nothing in his hand and got called out on it. According to wiki, it's more like he got stabbed in the back: Later he explained that he decided to resign during a meeting with the Prime Minister, on the night of the referendum, during which he discovered that the Prime Minister, instead of being energised by the "No" vote, declared to Varoufakis his decision to acquiesce to the troika's terms. Unwilling to sign such a "surrender" document, Varoufakis chose to resign.
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Jun 23, 2017 02:07
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It should be understood that both Tsipras and Varoufakis were in the right. Varoufakis wanted to take a risk that would mean staying true to democratic ideals, and Tsipras thought it irresponsible to do something that would put the well being of millions of citizens at even greater risk than otherwise. Ultimately it was a poo poo situation in which Greece held none of the cards. There was no "right" way out. None that Greece could unilaterally pursue.
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Jun 23, 2017 02:22
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Cat Mattress posted:In all the former Soviet state, left wing policies are associated with Russian oppression and therefore will never be supported in any way, shape, or form for the foreseeable future. Then you have a few western countries that make their wealth from tax fraud, so their entire way of life is based on siding with the FYGM types of the entire continent; they too will never support real left-wing policies. Every major decision in Europe requires unanimous approval, ergo, left-wing reforms of the EU are entirely impossible. There are and for a long time have been social democratic governments in Eastern Europe? If your complaint is that there aren't any communist ones, well, uhh, it's not like there are any in the west either, so it's a wash. Even then thanks to ostalgie and similar the far left actually polls slightly better in the east than the west. Not over ~20%, but, well, that's how it is. It's just plain not true that left movements don't exist in the East, kinda a bit bigoted even. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Jun 23, 2017 |
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Jun 23, 2017 02:48
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lollontee posted:The international socialist movement tore itself apart in ideological battles from the 50's onward and then in the aftermath in the 80's created an exclusive self-satisfied club for extermely woke assholes. Not exactly an atmospere conducive for wide, mass-based movements capable of organizing the cooperation of vast numbers of people with differing opinions, based on compromise and commonality as workers. The Left did a lot of damage to itself with identity politics in 90's, and we're only just now starting to recover. Practical questions of actually building a political movement tended to take a back seat when party leadership was more interested in chasing out vile Trotskyists and (more recently) secret racists and misogynists. I seriously, truly despise this 'identity politics is the devil' meme that constantly gets floated around by the whitest of leftists. Its loving bullshit, the left had to change to reflect the demographic changes of the people its meant to represent, the non-white population of Europe and America is way higher than it was in 1950 and by and large they represent the core of the poor, working classes of most of the west. Deal with it, you will not be able to build an effective, wide ranging leftist movement any more unless you make absolutely sure you can get minorities, especially racial ones, on side. As much as people are loath to admit it, movements like Bernie Sanders' learned that the hard way. There's no turning back the clock to a simpler time when people could be a little bit racist or misogynist and it'd all be hunky dory. Personally I'd prefer if things stayed on the current course and not return to Communist parties denouncing Gay Rights or Feminism as Bourgeois distractions. khwarezm fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Jun 23, 2017 |
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Jun 23, 2017 03:28
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Private Speech posted:There are and for a long time have been social democratic governments in Eastern Europe? If your complaint is that there aren't any communist ones, well, uhh, it's not like there are any in the west either, so it's a wash. Yeah, seriously. Those blasted Poles are denying us Socialism? Give me a break, there's no reason in principal why they can't be appealed to anymore than leftism will never spread to the United States because calling someone a Socialist is a dirty word. Maybe don't brand it using explicitly Soviet iconography, that can't be difficult. khwarezm fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Jun 23, 2017 |
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Jun 23, 2017 03:31
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But soviet iconography owns.lol so SOCIALISM doesnt need to be a dirty Word,whats really holding us back is this specific art style and look. Solidarity is a something of a thing to the hard left,its just hard to have solodarity for something actively trying to kill you.
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Jun 23, 2017 07:46
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Cat Mattress posted:If you're a left-wing europhile, you either realize that and your European project can only be possible if you destroy the actually existing European Union on the hope that a new one can be built on its ashes, or you're too dumb to ever succeed at becoming relevant. What makes you think that any new Union wouldn't be just as neoliberal as the current one? The Commission is already a vehicle for worker's rights and consumer protection that some member states loathe, and many procedures in the EU don't even require unanimity. If you were to destroy it and rebuild from the ashes, you'd have a new international organization that is even more consensus-based/intergovernmental than the EU, thus killing your leftist aspirations even harder. If you remove the consensus procedures and replace everything with majority voting, you're turning it into some bizarre super-state that nobody really wants. Almost like you need some sort of grassroots movement to convince people of your ideas. EDIT: and have some faith in your fellow Europeans jfc Deltasquid fucked around with this message at 09:36 on Jun 23, 2017 |
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Jun 23, 2017 09:30
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https://twitter.com/franceinfo/status/878163719359832064 Nobody want to form a parliamentary group with Manuel Valls. 
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Jun 23, 2017 10:09
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Kassad posted:https://twitter.com/franceinfo/status/878163719359832064 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmzOCtsZTW4
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Jun 23, 2017 10:13
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oof i like this article a lot http://www.francetvinfo.fr/election...us_2243827.html pro-read if you want some marcheur tears Kurtofan fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Jun 23, 2017 |
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Jun 23, 2017 10:21
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Kurtofan posted:oof i like this article a lot
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Jun 23, 2017 10:26
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quote:"C’est bien simple, je n’ai plus aucun avenir dans cette ville, se désolait-il. Ma réputation est ruinée, mon avenir professionnel se retrouve plombé. En m’inclinant à cette élection, j’ai tout perdu, absolument tout." This is almost  quote:Sa campagne a été emportée par les scandales. Le Parisien a d'abord révélé qu'il était visé par une plainte pour "violences conjugales" déposée par son épouse. Le candidat, en instance de divorce, a été entendu pendant l'entre-deux-tours au commissariat de police de Neuilly-sur-Seine. Paris-Match a ensuite rapporté qu'une autre plainte avait été déposée à son encontre par une amie de son épouse pour "injures publiques à caractères discriminatoires et menaces". Enfin, Le Parisien a dévoilé l’existence d’un compte offshore dans une banque HSBC de Hong Kong, non déclaré au fisc français Oh wait no it isn't
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Jun 23, 2017 10:30
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