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Well I guess it's hard to keep a 20-minute song interesting without the occasional solo, so it's easy to see why that association exists. Of course, good compositional skills are equally important because the rest of the song has to be good too.
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Jun 20, 2017 13:43
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Earwicker posted:I think sometimes prog fans tend to forget is that there important musical skills beyond pure instrumental technique that are just as important in terms of making good music, but which aren't going to necessarily come across as "technically proficient" in terms of instrumental performance, especially because prog is one of those genres that has a lot of "everybody gets a solo" songs, for better or worse Yeah, I think this is just a dumb thing to talk about to keep the prog thread from falling off the first page of NMD (or it would do that if there were more than 12 posts a day in NMD). Like this morning in the shower I was thinking Ian Anderson might be a good example for the topic, cause I don't think anyone would ever hold him up as some virtuoso flautist, and he's hardly a technically gifted singer -- but who cares? I don't think the songs would be improved by more face-melting flute solos.
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Jun 20, 2017 14:37
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Earwicker posted:I think sometimes prog fans tend to forget is that there important musical skills beyond pure instrumental technique that are just as important in terms of making good music, but which aren't going to necessarily come across as "technically proficient" in terms of instrumental performance, especially because prog is one of those genres that has a lot of "everybody gets a solo" songs, for better or worse Primus are one of the greatest bands of all time so I don't see the issue. The idea that any one instrument is "supposed" to have a specific role at all times seems antithetical to progressive music, doesn't it? Prog bassists (hell, bassists in general) don't have to be like Les Claypool but they don't have to be like Peter Hook or Tina Weymouth either (all of whom are great in their own ways).
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Jun 20, 2017 14:39
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6iMrT_xpKo This is kinda bad but I could see myself having fun at one of these shows.
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Jun 20, 2017 14:58
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Henchman of Santa posted:The idea that any one instrument is "supposed" to have a specific role at all times seems antithetical to progressive music, doesn't it? Prog bassists (hell, bassists in general) don't have to be like Les Claypool but they don't have to be like Peter Hook or Tina Weymouth either (all of whom are great in their own ways). That's not really my point. I'm saying that just because a bassist sticks to more of the traditional role of a bassist in a rhythm section, it doesn't necessarily mean they lack technical proficiency, just that they aren't playing in a way that would show it off which - in most cases - is totally appropriate. I listened to Primus a lot in high school and yeah Les and the others are very good musicians but to me they sounded more and more like a gimmick that was outwearing its welcome, and all of his other projects seemed barely listenable to me meanwhile there are promiment figures in prog who aren't really musicians at all, Peter Sinfield and Brian Eno, though the latter is technically proficient in a number of other senses, just not on any particular instrument also Boz Burrell obviously was no virtuoso but the bassline in Sailor's Tale is so good he gets an automatic pass Earwicker fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 15:32
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Earwicker posted:I think sometimes prog fans tend to forget is that there important musical skills beyond pure instrumental technique that are just as important in terms of making good music, but which aren't going to necessarily come across as "technically proficient" in terms of instrumental performance, especially because prog is one of those genres that has a lot of "everybody gets a solo" songs, for better or worse https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-5hLiZnJhU The music was definitely built around Tony Levin's presence, though, and you can't just stick that style into Moonchild and have it work.
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Jun 20, 2017 16:01
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So I just saw KC and holy poo poo what a loving set, the three drummer thing is loving awesome and Gavin Harrison's work especially is just wild. It's funny to me though, because prog is so notorious for its excess that KC's shows are about as minimalist as it gets. Tony Levin is pretty much the only one who so much as bobs his head. Fripp is almost the anti-rockstar, he seems to move as little as humanly possible, basically disappearing on to the stage like another mic stand or something.
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Jun 20, 2017 19:38
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ELP and Pink Floyd are famous for their excesses, but that's because they had a mad virtuoso (Keith Emerson) and two architects (Roger Waters, Nick Mason) among them!
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Jun 20, 2017 20:30
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Cymbal Monkey posted:So I just saw KC and holy poo poo what a loving set, the three drummer thing is loving awesome and Gavin Harrison's work especially is just wild. It's funny to me though, because prog is so notorious for its excess that KC's shows are about as minimalist as it gets. Tony Levin is pretty much the only one who so much as bobs his head. Fripp is almost the anti-rockstar, he seems to move as little as humanly possible, basically disappearing on to the stage like another mic stand or something. P@ is pretty mobile, but RF and BR are after all, GC influenced. Gavin has his own natural roboticness
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Jun 20, 2017 21:25
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Is trey gunn doing anything these days?
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Jun 20, 2017 22:34
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BigFactory posted:Is trey gunn doing anything these days? Tours with P@ sometimes, does Touch Guitar Circle, just published the THRAK score book. Probably more but I missed seeing him in Seattle last week.
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Jun 21, 2017 03:18
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Recently i've been listening to a lot of this Russian band called ZGA who are primarily an industrial group, but it turns out they have a couple of albums that are more like RIO avant prog kind of songs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAyR5r4WESs
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Jun 21, 2017 04:38
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BigFactory posted:Yeah, I think this is just a dumb thing to talk about to keep the prog thread from falling off the first page of NMD (or it would do that if there were more than 12 posts a day in NMD). Ian may not be a classically trained flautist, but the guy has mad chops.
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Jun 22, 2017 02:01
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Hit me with your best zeuhl, guys, preferably not entirely Magma.
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Jun 22, 2017 02:46
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Well, it's about as close to a Magma album as you can get without it officially being one, but Jannick Top's Soleil d'Ork is essential, particularly because it has the full, unedited version of Mekanik Machine. I remember liking Guapo and Koenjihyakkei the most of the Magma-unaffiliated zeuhl bands I've listened to, but it's been long enough that I need to reacquaint myself.
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Jun 22, 2017 03:39
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BigFactory posted:I think you could make an argument for Adrian Belew, especially in the early days. He brought a looseness to a band that might be kinda stuffy otherwise. I still can't get over this. Andrian Belew is a monster player.
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Jun 22, 2017 03:50
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Cymbal Monkey posted:Hit me with your best zeuhl, guys, preferably not entirely Magma. Shub Niggurath is cool https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHK-5pLrBN0 also maybe check out a band called Yeti or at least their first album and demo, the second album is apparently different in style but I've not heard it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5Rbu4eMPAI
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Jun 22, 2017 05:12
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This Zeuhl band popped up in my Spotify Discover Weekly list just this week! They're Italian, I believe. Universal Totem Orchestra https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YL-rCvmdAk
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Jun 22, 2017 11:47
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Iucounu posted:I still can't get over this. Andrian Belew is a monster player. Adrian looks like he's having fun playing (he is) and maybe people mistake that for being an amateur and not A Serious Musician. He doesn't read music and never counts. He just knows how things go. I mean you try counting Discipline. He just plays it.
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Jun 22, 2017 12:47
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Cymbal Monkey posted:Hit me with your best zeuhl, guys, preferably not entirely Magma. You might want to give Eskaton a try. Looking it up on Youtube to get the link, I see that it offers me Weidorje as well.
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Jun 22, 2017 12:48
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there are tons of technically proficient musicians who don't read music. maybe it's more rare in the prog world but being able to read music is in no way necessary for being a very good instrumentalist (though it certainly helps a lot)
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Jun 22, 2017 14:32
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Earwicker posted:there are tons of technically proficient musicians who don't read music. maybe it's more rare in the prog world but being able to read music is in no way necessary for being a very good instrumentalist (though it certainly helps a lot) He had to explain it to Zappa. Zappa ended up inviting him to spend each weekend at his house where Frank would show him everything they were practising the next week, then they did Monday-to-Friday with the whole band. So Frank Zappa thought he was worth it.
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Jun 22, 2017 15:16
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I took it back!
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Jun 22, 2017 15:55
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you have to personally go to that prog rock camp in upstate ny and apologize
Earwicker fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Jun 22, 2017 |
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Jun 22, 2017 16:00
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Earwicker posted:you have to personally go to that prog rock camp in upstate ny and apologize He was a very nice man the one time I said hi to him before a show, so I'm sure he would graciously accept my apology.
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Jun 22, 2017 18:00
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I love prog and I'm happy to immerse myself in absurd overblown concept albums but can't find any warm place in my heart for musical theatre. It feels like I'm a huge snob and a hypocrite, really. I can't find any reasonable argument why there's a significant enough difference between two pompous musical storytelling art forms for one to enthuse me and the other to leave me totally cold.
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Jun 22, 2017 18:55
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Tsaedje posted:I love prog and I'm happy to immerse myself in absurd overblown concept albums but can't find any warm place in my heart for musical theatre. It feels like I'm a huge snob and a hypocrite, really. I can't find any reasonable argument why there's a significant enough difference between two pompous musical storytelling art forms for one to enthuse me and the other to leave me totally cold. I don't think they're very similar? like most good prog isn't really focused on storytelling anyway.
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Jun 23, 2017 00:08
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Also outside of the narrative aspect, most musical theatre showcases vocal talent far more than instrumental talent, and since the vocal performances involve dramatic elements like dialog between characters, it's going to be delivered in a clear way that is kind of specific to musical theatre - and if you don't like that style of singing it's probably going to be hard to get into.
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Jun 23, 2017 00:15
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Not really sure why I posted that to be honest, I was musing out loud, I guess. I think there is definitely overlap though, obviously more on the Ayreoney side than the King Crimson. I guess that's the central problem of lumping everything under a "prog" umbrella
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Jun 23, 2017 00:35
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I was going to latch onto the vocal style thing as well. I hate 90% of Broadway singing, it just irks me. (I'm only just starting to figure out opera for similar reasons.) Prog vocalists usually aren't nearly as focused on projecting/enunciating or showcasing remarkable vocal talent -- not to say they aren't bombastic, but it's a different kind of bombastic, I guess.
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Jun 23, 2017 01:16
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Besides Tommy, Jesus Christ Superstar is probably the most "prog rock" musical. But that's probably because it was written to be a rock opera in the style of the late 60s psychedelic genre of the time, and the main riff to "heaven on their minds" is also very similar to Pink Floyd's "let there be more light" which is one of the reasons Roger Waters hates Andrew Lloyd Weber, the other reason is the pretty blatant Echoes riff ripoff (riffof?) on Phantom of the Opera, but to be fair it is just a descending and ascending chromatic scale so it's hard claim "ownership" of that.
Gianthogweed fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Jun 23, 2017 |
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Jun 23, 2017 01:26
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Back in high school, I had to share a bus to a theatre competition with a guy who kept rehearsing his song from a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde musical the whole way, and that's still all I can think of when I hear Man-Erg. I love Peter Hammill in other contexts (and having seen VdGG in 2012, holy poo poo, his voice hasn't aged a day), but sometimes I can't help but get that cringy feeling of vicarious embarrassment when listening to his music.
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Jun 23, 2017 02:07
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Earwicker posted:you have to personally go to that prog rock camp in upstate ny and apologize Sorry we're full this year already. Pete Levin is coming and were having a jazz jam session with him and Tony in the cafe on Wednesday. Not sure when the Beatles sing-along with Ade and Gary Slick will be this year at the campfire.
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Jun 23, 2017 02:46
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Gianthogweed posted:Besides Tommy, Jesus Christ Superstar is probably the most "prog rock" musical. But that's probably because it was written to be a rock opera in the style of the late 60s psychedelic genre of the time, and the main riff to "heaven on their minds" is also very similar to Pink Floyd's "let there be more light" which is one of the reasons Roger Waters hates Andrew Lloyd Weber, the other reason is the pretty blatant Echoes riff ripoff (riffof?) on Phantom of the Opera, but to be fair it is just a descending and ascending chromatic scale so it's hard claim "ownership" of that. Phantom is probably more closely a ripoff of Rick Wakeman's Judas Iscariot. Earwicker posted:there are tons of technically proficient musicians who don't read music. maybe it's more rare in the prog world but being able to read music is in no way necessary for being a very good instrumentalist (though it certainly helps a lot) Speaking of, Bill Bruford has said that no one in Yes could read music until Wakeman joined.
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Jun 23, 2017 02:55
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There are very few rock musicians that know how to read music. The percentage in prog is probably a little higher but not by much.
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Jun 23, 2017 03:11
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Anecdotally: I can read music, but I'm so slow at it that it's not worth it. An awful lot of people who play instruments probably fall into the same boat.
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Jun 23, 2017 04:07
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Yep, me too. It's never mattered since every band I've been in, we've either done tabs or chord charts. Honestly, it would be a nice skill to have, but imo functional knowledge of how to play chords and how to go between chords in whatever style/instrument you play is far more important (at least for non-classical music)
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Jun 23, 2017 05:08
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Tsaedje posted:I love prog and I'm happy to immerse myself in absurd overblown concept albums but can't find any warm place in my heart for musical theatre. It feels like I'm a huge snob and a hypocrite, really. I can't find any reasonable argument why there's a significant enough difference between two pompous musical storytelling art forms for one to enthuse me and the other to leave me totally cold. As a non-theatre person who works off and on for a theatre company as their live sound guy, I have this problem a lot. (at one of our old venues, I'd often be the first one there in the afternoon before a show, so I'd just camp my seat in the booth and crank up the tunes on the big speakers and I literally did once have a cast member go "...Phantom?" halfway through Echoes. I was about ready to throw something at him.) My main problem is that---and the problem is is that I don't have the music theory knowledge to properly dissect how this works---but there's something about music from musicals, either it's the keys, the changes, the scales, something that really screams out "SHOWTUNE" and I can't put my finger on it, but whatever it is, it makes my skin crawl. It just feels completely facile. It might partly be the vocal performance, where everything is enunciated to death, but it's the instrumental stuff, too, I dunno. You can definitely hear it, like, do a blindfold test, and within like four bars of intro, you can tell whether something's pop music or show music.
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Jun 23, 2017 09:59
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also re: reading music, I once had a lineup of my band (which only ever played in my apartment because I am a dumb and bad with brain problems) that included a person who griped mightily from behind her keyboard about not having sheet music and just being told the changes. I then pulled out some sheet music I'd printed out for a song I wanted to try anyway (DEVO's Gates of Steel) and she basically acted like she couldn't read it. I haven't read sheet music since high school band, but I also mostly just play rhythm guitar and drums for two- to three-chord rock songs.
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Jun 23, 2017 10:04
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Jeff Waynes War Of The Worlds 
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Jun 23, 2017 11:38
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