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blowfish posted:is a valid point (plus it means that SA is relevant by the transitive property :v.) As someone in QCS or somewhere said, SA is now more famous now in the things it's spawned than the site itself.
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Jun 23, 2017 23:26
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Dreylad posted:As Nagle argues, Tumblr politics matter as much as 4chan politics insomuch that they themselves aren't important but the kinds of transgressive identity politics they dole out have spawned bigger movements and reactions across the Internet. Being critical of the extremes of identity politics isn't condoning other kinds of criticism that tend to come in the form of the harassment of women and minorities. Nagle herself is a feminist and she criticizes modern ID politics from a feminist perspective. this. i need to pick up the book instead.
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Jun 23, 2017 23:27
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blowfish posted:normal definition: feelgood liberalism that's often divorced from reality and more focused on self-congratulatory circle jerks or making a show of being hostile to Bad PeopleTM without any further attempts at solving or even considering the root causes of why there are too many Bad PeopleTM So, uh, this thread? 'Cos I mean, I'm not trying to be a dickhead but people circularly discussing topics without doing anything of substance is life. It's just a part of how people deal with a lovely world, it's nice to just have a common grumble with people who agree with you and I don't really see anything wrong with that given that there's bugger all any given person can do to change the state of the whole world. If it makes people adhere to not-poo poo ideas on an entirely personal level, that's frankly a net plus as far as I'm concerned. I don't really see a reason to complain about it.
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Jun 23, 2017 23:30
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OwlFancier posted:So, uh, this thread? Yes, of course, and it's fun to ineffectually laugh at silly youtube pepe men (and women!) and call them names. The problem is when people forget that to actually achieve social progress, tactics other than laughing at silly youtube pepes and calling them names are needed to convince people who aren't also already laughing at silly youtube pepes and calling them names.
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Jun 23, 2017 23:34
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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some of us do donate money to progressive candidates and causes and also physically protest. i figured tumblr liberalism would be more the centrist clintonism where you pay lip service to social justice but don't really care about class or inequality in a general sense as you're probably decently well off. just the inability to realize that class and identity politics are fully intertwined. Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Jun 23, 2017 |
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Jun 23, 2017 23:34
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blowfish posted:Yes, of course, and it's fun to ineffectually laugh at silly youtube pepe men (and women!). I don't think people "forget" that, I think that, as always, the overwhelming majority of people are never going to engage in that anyway. And that communities forming around promoting half decent ideas to fairly niche audiences, remains substantially preferable to people adopting lovely ideas or remaining utterly apathetic and simply propping up the lovely status quo. The complaint would make sense if the insular microclimates that you find with say, the more 'avant garde' sex/gender issue communities, were actually hoarding all the hardened revolutionaries who await only the spark of true socialist thought to get them out and instigating the class war but I think what you're observing is simply people who would probably otherwise be fairly disengaged, engaged in a very specific way which makes them frankly very safe people from a progressive viewpoint, they're people who would be very hard pressed to become regressive, that's far better than the default you're working with in society. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Jun 23, 2017 |
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Jun 23, 2017 23:36
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Groovelord Neato posted:some of us do donate money to progressive candidates and causes and also physically protest. OwlFancier posted:I don't think people "forget" that, I think that, as always, the overwhelming majority of people are never going to engage in that anyway. And that communities forming around promoting half decent ideas to fairly niche audiences, remains substantially preferable to people adopting lovely ideas or remaining utterly apathetic and simply propping up the lovely status quo. No, I don't have a problem with people who aren't trying to convince anyone having a circle jerk. I mean cases where people who at least claim to try to change or publicly debate things still act like they're having a private circle jerk, e.g. half the Guardian comment pages 18 months ago being filled by vacuous whingeing about how electing Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader is an insult to all women because electing Corbyn out of a lineup of $TokenCentristMan1, $TokenCentristMan2, $TokenCentristWoman1, $TokenCentristMan3, $TokenCentristWoman2 and actual socially and economically progressive jam man Corbyn was clear evidence for the existence of a sexist Brocialist demographic. suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Jun 23, 2017 |
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Jun 23, 2017 23:39
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Tumblerites didn't come up with privilege theory and microaggressions on their own, it has deeper roots in academia and critical theory, (aka the ~cultural marxists~ of rational fame) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhwePFyB5g8
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Jun 23, 2017 23:40
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsZgkTZZiCk And let the victim-playing begin!
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Jun 23, 2017 23:41
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blowfish posted:Yeah, I mean things like half the Guardian comment pages 18 months ago being filled by vacuous whingeing about how electing Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader is an insult to all women because electing Corbyn out of a lineup of $TokenCentristMan1, $TokenCentristMan2, $TokenCentristWoman1, $TokenCentristMan3, $TokenCentristWoman2 and actual socially and economically progressive jam man Corbyn was clear evidence for the existence of a sexist Brocialist demographic. or people saying how they cried at wonder woman despite the movie being not actually feminist at all. where were all these people when way more feminist and much better film mad max fury road was out?? the reaction to wonder woman brought this to mind: https://twitter.com/historyinflicks/status/839732795706593281
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Jun 23, 2017 23:41
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Fados posted:Tumblerites didn't come up with privilege theory and microaggressions on their own, it has deeper roots in academia and critical theory, (aka the ~cultural marxists~ of rational fame) This also, I have yet to encounter anything decried as SJW insanity that is actually wrong, you can argue that it should be secondary to your preferred cause, but I don't feel able to argue against stuff like that. It's probably correct. I can't bring myself to be incensed about people being a little irritating while also being correct.
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Jun 23, 2017 23:43
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blowfish posted:No, I don't have a problem with people who aren't trying to convince anyone having a circle jerk. I mean cases where people who at least claim to try to change or publicly debate things still act like they're having a private circle jerk, e.g. half the Guardian comment pages 18 months ago being filled by vacuous whingeing about how electing Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader is an insult to all women because electing Corbyn out of a lineup of $TokenCentristMan1, $TokenCentristMan2, $TokenCentristWoman1, $TokenCentristMan3, $TokenCentristWoman2 and actual socially and economically progressive jam man Corbyn was clear evidence for the existence of a sexist Brocialist demographic. I find it rather strange to characterize that as "tumblr liberalism" rather than just "liberalism" That's textbook bourgie middle class liberalism, it's old as the bloody hills. Like the graun isn't tumblr, it's the world's longest running case study on well off liberal idiots with too much access to education and not enough actual brain cells nor the economic pressure to develop a facsimile of them. It's not a progressive paper, it's not an anything paper except for a mouthpiece for a small section of the population that loves to have opinions without having either the experience or depth of academic rigor to substantiate them. It's a paper written by the chattering classes, for the chattering classes, about things that only the chattering classes could sincerely appreciate. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Jun 23, 2017 |
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Jun 23, 2017 23:46
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Archer666 posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsZgkTZZiCk cyber abuse victim carl is really going to be raking it in on the patreon this month no hypocrisy going on there ofc
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Jun 23, 2017 23:48
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can't believe those jews in the warsaw ghetto attacked those german soldiers after whining about oppression. hypocrisy much?
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Jun 23, 2017 23:50
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Why won't this woman I've stalked for literal years treat me with respect? Why can't she be sane and rational about this?
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Jun 23, 2017 23:55
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Groovelord Neato posted:can't believe those jews in the warsaw ghetto attacked those german soldiers after whining about oppression. hypocrisy much? So much for the tolerant left.  I've always thought Tumblr liberalism was things like otherkin and describing yourself as a demiromantic pansexual gray-A nymphomaniac or whatever. You know, the fringes of the fringe that are so out there the only real world place you're going to see them is a bunch of high schoolers just starting to establish their own distinct identities around poo poo that doesn't matter but hey, that's high school right? 
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Jun 23, 2017 23:55
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Groovelord Neato posted:can't believe those jews in the warsaw ghetto attacked those german soldiers after whining about oppression. hypocrisy much? Cyber abuse of a public figure is an awful thing, but comparing it to a Jew in the Holocaust might be stretching a bit heh? There is also a different and funny brand of political rational that I haven't seen in this thread yet: The Tankie Rational! In this classic video FinnishBolshevik explores why Stalin wasn't that bad as the lying capitalists would have you believe. It has population graphs and everything. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQkTcmfy2QM
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Jun 23, 2017 23:58
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Dapper_Swindler posted:Quinn,,, reading her various blogs/tweets/social media even the long eron thing. she strikes me as kinda of a lovely person who uses people and throws them away. i know people like her personally, my ex was one. they are toxic as gently caress people who make you feel like poo poo constantly. it sadly wouldn't surprise me if half the stuff the ex said was true. that being said, it should never have gone public and she didn't deserve that level of poo poo. Do we need poo poo like this? This is gross and basically the same poo poo a "rational" would say, in fact, the whole tone of the thread is getting a little "rational-esque" You basically are saying that her ex is right here, gently caress you.
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Jun 24, 2017 00:00
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Fados posted:Cyber abuse of a public figure is an awful thing, but comparing it to a Jew in the Holocaust might be stretching a bit heh? twas a joke my dear. Fados posted:In this classic video FinnishBolshevik explores why Stalin wasn't that bad as the lying capitalists would have you believe. It has population graphs and everything. there was some goon who used to defend communist regimes by misusing statistics and he got burned harder than anyone i've ever seen when someone posted something like "it's [poster's] greatest weakness, someone who knows anything at all"
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Jun 24, 2017 00:01
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There is a contingent of Tumblr-dwelling (and other places) people for whom the term 'social justice warrior' applied, as they were belligerently determined to fight perceived oppression no matter how actually oppressive it actually was. Those people had good intentions but a useless as poo poo way of handling it. They're the kind of people who would push a black person out of the way to call a fellow white person a racist and tell them why, while telling the black person to shut up while they dealt with it. The modern usage of 'SJW' is an example of the right wing co-opting and misusing progressive terminology to push an agenda. By and large the people who complain about 'Tumblr leftism' are not actually people who use Tumblr but are aware of the toxic arm of its community and choose to vastly overstate its size and outreach to further their own political view. e:grammr Tesseraction fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Jun 24, 2017 |
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Jun 24, 2017 00:02
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Dreylad posted:As Nagle argues, Tumblr politics matter as much as 4chan politics insomuch that they themselves aren't important but the kinds of transgressive identity politics they dole out have spawned bigger movements and reactions across the Internet. Being critical of the extremes of identity politics isn't condoning other kinds of criticism that tend to come in the form of the harassment of women and minorities. Nagle herself is a feminist and she criticizes modern ID politics from a feminist perspective. I've been reading a media scholar named Whitney Phillips who just released a new book about memes and internet discourse called The Ambivalent Internet. Her understanding of the internet is that it's basically built on bullying as entertainment, whether down to the depths of 4chan or just on the surface of the now-dead Gawker or all those viral videos of parents humiliating their kids in "funny" ways. Her thesis is that it's all about turning people into objects that are entertaining, and I think there's an argument to be made that links Philip's broad understanding of the internet with the specific teen culture war between tumblr and 4chan, that the internet as a medium dehumanizes its objects. That could be really obvious, but I have only recently come to realize the political significance of the internet culture war. https://www.amazon.com/Ambivalent-Internet-Mischief-Oddity-Antagonism/dp/1509501266 https://www.amazon.com/This-Cant-Have-Nice-Things/dp/0262028948 I AM GRANDO fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Jun 24, 2017 |
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Jun 24, 2017 00:04
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Groovelord Neato posted:some of us do donate money to progressive candidates and causes and also physically protest. OwlFancier posted:I find it rather strange to characterize that as "tumblr liberalism" rather than just "liberalism" "Corbyn is divisive, not statesmanlike, and due to his insistence on being moderately yet distinctly left cannot unite the country to achieve more freedoms, prosperities and rights like a ~reasonable $TokenCentrist~ with no discernible political opinions who represents the low-fat version of everything anyone could possibly be for or against" is IMO a classical bourgie-as-gently caress liberal stance. "Corbyn is a man, voted in by an unspecified mass of sexist men no matter his socially progressive leanings, and is therefore worse than $TokenCentrist" is lovely idpol that totally misses the point but makes for a great self-congratulatory comment to show how ~socially aware~ you are. Obviously, arguments similar to the latter would have already existed before (Tumblr users didn't invent the arguments they barely understand, as you pointed out), but I do have the distinct and totally not anecdotal ( ) experience that this line of "reasoning" has become more commonGroovelord Neato posted:or people saying how they cried at wonder woman despite the movie being not actually feminist at all. where were all these people when way more feminist and much better film mad max fury road was out??  harsh but true, and agreed that mad max fury road is extremely feminist (but because it's called mad max fury road it can't possibly be feminist you see)
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Jun 24, 2017 00:07
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Ah good, we've reached the point where we tell women they're doing feminism wrong, cool
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Jun 24, 2017 00:11
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lol when i told a guy fury road was more feminist than wonder woman i was accused of mansplaining. (it also is more feminist so don't pull that bullshit)
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Jun 24, 2017 00:12
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Thread, turn left.
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Jun 24, 2017 00:12
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the last like ten posts were about how liberals are too far to the right.
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Jun 24, 2017 00:13
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"tumblr feminism" is a term meant to pigeonhole people. other than using the label tumblr, there's no cohesive way to tie "them" all together.
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Jun 24, 2017 00:13
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OwlFancier posted:What is "tumblr liberalism" in this context and why is it bad? I don't know if this is what is being referred to, but I find there's a certain strain of liberalism that seems to genuinely enjoy the idea of being correct and cares far more about laying burns on conservatives than actually creating concrete positive change. The main reason I notice this is that this is basically how I was until the end of college or so. Even though I wouldn't have admitted it at the time, on some level I truly enjoyed the Bush years because it was honestly fun to make fun of conservatives and point out their latest gently caress-ups. There was some comfort in knowing I was right and these other people were evil and wrong. I've noticed a resurgence of this same attitude since Trump was elected. It is transparently obvious that many liberals actually enjoy being able to make fun of the president's latest dumb tweets, and they like the feeling of "being part of something big/important" that comes from being part of the ~#resistance~ or whatever. I think part of the reason there's a backlash is that the people who focus heavily on laying burns on Trump usually don't focus much on any sort of positive change that goes beyond thwarting Republican malfeasance. So you end up with people who are deeply unhappy with the status quo who see a bunch of financially secure liberals treating politics as some sort of fun debate and ignoring the issues that concern them. You then sometimes end up with these people making the association between liberals like this and social issues, which results in them thinking of said social issues as being somehow opposed to their own concerns. This is of course nonsense, but it's at least partially the unfortunate result of liberals neglecting to address issues like wealth inequality, etc. edit: I think Contrapoints illustrates this issue pretty well. He frequently discusses social issues and is even genderqueer himself, but he is received far more positively by many non-SJW peopple than other "SJW" Youtubers, and I believe this is at least partly because he makes an honest attempt to explain his positions (rather than just wanting to lay down sweet burns) and also makes it clear that he is aware that there are other serious problems with the status quo. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Jun 24, 2017 |
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Jun 24, 2017 00:15
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landgrabber posted:"tumblr feminism" is a term meant to pigeonhole people. other than using the label tumblr, there's no cohesive way to tie "them" all together. it's good that we were actually talking about how feminists are weak-willed wimminfolk in need of a good red pilling rather than something else then, in addition to focusing on strawman people who state "attack helicopter (specifically NH90 TTH Caïman, recon loadout but with a crate of wine and baguette for the post-battle celebrations in the trunk)" as their gender e: Ytlaya posted:I don't know if this is what is being referred to, but I find there's a certain strain of liberalism that seems to genuinely enjoy the idea of being correct and cares far more about laying burns on conservatives than actually creating concrete positive change. The main reason I notice this is that this is basically how I was until the end of college or so. Even though I wouldn't have admitted it at the time, on some level I truly enjoyed the Bush years because it was honestly fun to make fun of conservatives and point out their latest gently caress-ups. There was some comfort in knowing I was right and these other people were evil and wrong. Better put than I could at this time of day
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Jun 24, 2017 00:16
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Groovelord Neato posted:lol when i told a guy fury road was more feminist than wonder woman i was accused of mansplaining. Gosh, surely art can't mean different things to different people, my interpretation is the only correct one, beep boop
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Jun 24, 2017 00:16
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i take it you haven't seen both movies.
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Jun 24, 2017 00:17
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FWIW I'm not sure if I'm one of the people being called out in the last few posts, but if I am feel free to point out where I've hosed up!
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Jun 24, 2017 00:18
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Here's a great short vid from Dan Olsen about why "Is movie feminist?" is a dumb question to even ask: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb3U6f_qxZ8
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Jun 24, 2017 00:18
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Praseodymi posted:https://twitter.com/ContraPoints/status/878328592815407104 Who's the redhead on the end? I guess I'm glad I don't recognize any of the reactionary half of the table (I thought that was Blaire White and was shocked, but it's someone I haven't heard of before), but I do notice that a big difference between the superteam in general and the reactos is that Lindsay Ellis, Contrapoints, Dan Olson, and Hbomb all have media production and analysis skills and use those in producing videos that are informative and that provide substantive analysis, while the Carls and TL;DRs of the world just fart out hours-long static shots of them reading from their scripts or dumb still-image or lazily animated avatars while they just list their grievances with the world. I mean, Shaun has that skull sometimes but he still cuts his videos together with relevant images and cares about how long they are. Also he has that beautiful voice.
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Jun 24, 2017 00:19
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when someone says "fury road is feminist" they mean "it has feminist themes" language isn't usually used extremely literally. the only feminist bit in wonder woman is the main character is a woman but she's still highly sexualized.
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Jun 24, 2017 00:20
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Ytlaya posted:I think part of the reason there's a backlash is that the people who focus heavily on laying burns on Trump usually don't focus much on any sort of positive change that goes beyond thwarting Republican malfeasance. So you end up with people who are deeply unhappy with the status quo who see a bunch of financially secure liberals treating politics as some sort of fun debate and ignoring the issues that concern them. You then sometimes end up with these people making the association between liberals like this and social issues, which results in them thinking of said social issues as being somehow opposed to their own concerns. This is of course nonsense, but it's at least partially the unfortunate result of liberals neglecting to address issues like wealth inequality, etc. Well that's not nonsense because liberals are opposed to rectifying wealth inequality because economic liberalism is explicitly pro wealth inequality and if someone advertises as a liberal they are almost invariably economically liberal. But I would say it isn't an argument against owning dickheads whenever possible, and again that it has absolutely nothing to do with tumblr and is an extremely well established aspect of liberalism. One which has always been its core tenet, the idea that liberalism should embrace economic leftism and that liberals are somehow at fault for not doing that is the modern, strange idea. Being surprised that they don't is the foolishness in that instance, I think. And I also don't think that tumblr liberalism is a good term because it's already used to describe people who spend an inordinate amount of time complaining that their identity as a transcendent dragon from the future is not recognized by human dominated society, and I don't think that's an argument even on the political spectrum, for all that it may be dressed in political language. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Jun 24, 2017 |
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Jun 24, 2017 00:21
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Groovelord Neato posted:when someone says "fury road is feminist" they mean "it has feminist themes" language isn't usually used extremely literally. the only feminist bit in wonder woman is the main character is a woman but she's still highly sexualized. So wonder woman has no feminist themes?
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Jun 24, 2017 00:21
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Ytlaya posted:
This is turning out to be literally the main strategy of the democratic party elite: Normalize him. Just treat Trump like another Bush, have your attack dogs and late night hosts make fun of his mistakes and in 4 years run another milquetoast centrist and hope you eventually win on the back of your opponent's unpopularity.
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Jun 24, 2017 00:21
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WampaLord posted:So wonder woman has no feminist themes? it's captain america with a woman in place of cap. Fados posted:This is turning out to be literally the main strategy of the democratic party elite: Normalize him. Just treat Trump like another Bush, have your attack dogs and late night hosts make fun of his mistakes and in 4 years run another milquetoast centrist and hope you eventually win on the back of your opponent's unpopularity. the article about the people who rush to be the first to reply to his tweets owns
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Jun 24, 2017 00:21
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Groovelord Neato posted:
And as the videotape leak debacle showed, a lot of times, it can work against you, it can humanize your opponent, make him seem like a flawed common guy, just like "you and me".
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Jun 24, 2017 00:24
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