EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

The very basis of leftism is "idpol", the politics of forging class identity and from it class solidarity. And that's all oppressed classes fighting for their rights together, even if old writings focused way too much on just the white identity.

# ? Jun 24, 2017 04:38

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# ? May 29, 2024 22:32

Kassad: Nov 12, 2005; It's about time.

Shibawanko posted:

feminism makes a lot more sense to me in a place like Japan for example

Yep, no need for any of that feminism over here in Europe, no siree!

:geno:

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# ? Jun 24, 2017 04:38

feller: Jul 5, 2006

lollontee posted:

Would it make it okay for me to criticise idpol if I told you I was bisexual? Or do I need to be black in addition? Well, here's a black guy on chapo if that makes you feel better, they talk about idpol at some point. I draw my social values from the civil rights thing, and just because I don't explicitly say so every time I criticise idpol doesn't mean I'd like to bring back the old lovely times. Also maybe in the future consider not bitching about the race of someone presenting criticism.

The problem with idpol isn't the values of human rights, the problem is that it simply doesn't inspire. You don't motivate people with liberal dribble about how were all different and individuals and all that bollocks. Some actual worker turns up at a meeting and all he hears is gay rights this and patriarchy that and how muslims are wonderful, how does that help him when he's about to lose his job because they're moving the factory to Poland or whatever? He might agree that gays shouldn't be bullied to suicide in school, he might not care about the immigrants with whom he now has to compete for cleaning jobs, but so what? What happens next? If all we care and talk about is individual rights and migrants, how exactly is that going to lead to a change in the relations of power we're under, or help him fight for his job? It doesn't is how.

And when that guy brings up the fact that he can't earn a living wage anymore since he has to compete with immigrants in a race to the bottom for wages, he gets called a racist fascist bassist and roundly booed out of the room. You take that athmosphere, that attitude in the party, and you wonder why is that workers don't vote socialist anymore? That (white and homophobic of course) isn't going to walk out of a party meeting with his life transformed, thinking his suffering and struggle is part of something greater than him, that he has people who got his back. That he's part of the working class, struggling together.

Idpol doesn't go anywhere. It doesn't tell us how to build a political movement, it doesn't inspire people to struggle. There's a limited number of hours in a day, and if you spend it all championing the cause of individual(istic) minority groups, that's not magically going to transform into a mass movement. Individual rights are great and I'm a beneficiary of them, but gay rights are not something that's going to motivate workers into making sacrifices when there's no common denominator to bind them together as one. In short, gently caress idpol.

Also, hapy juhannus errybody!

This is gently caress you just got mine which is a fun new version I have to admit.

# ? Jun 24, 2017 05:01

Goa Tse-tung: Feb 11, 2008; ;3; Yams Fan

lollontee posted:

Individual rights are great and I'm a beneficiary of them, but gay rights are not something that's going to motivate workers into making sacrifices when there's no common denominator to bind them together as one. In short, gently caress idpol.

this was a massive straw man you took down, nicely done!

# ? Jun 24, 2017 05:17

Kurtofan: Feb 16, 2011; hon hon hon

Mikl posted:

France, if you really don't want Corsica, we'll be glad to take her off your hands. Just sayin'.

hah, not sure you thought this through :v:

# ? Jun 24, 2017 08:28

Kurtofan: Feb 16, 2011; hon hon hon

http://www.lemonde.fr/m-perso/article/2017/06/23/legislatives-le-village-aux-100-d-abstention_5150177_4497916.html

100% abstention in a village in the Drome

Edit: :ussr:

http://www.lemonde.fr/auvergne-rhone-alpes/drome,26/pennes-le-sec,26228/elections/legislatives-2017/

Kurtofan fucked around with this message at 08:56 on Jun 24, 2017

# ? Jun 24, 2017 08:48

YF-23: Feb 17, 2011; My god, it's full of cat!

Identity politics is important, but it is no replacement for class politics. What makes idpol "problematic" is that huge portions of the centre-left have dropped class politics and adopted identity politics as a substitute. In that context idpol becomes symbolic of the abandonment of class politics and it is unsurprising that a lot of people kneejerk against it in response.

But ultimately true socialist politics would have to embrace identity politics as well. Class consciousness cannot ever be exclusionary, and the only way to achieve that is through identity politics, through embracing your fellow worker. Racism, sexism, and various phobias get in the way of that.

# ? Jun 24, 2017 09:10

unpacked robinhood: Feb 18, 2013; by Fluffdaddy

Mikl posted:

France, if you really don't want Corsica, we'll be glad to take her off your hands. Just sayin'.

Don't forget to give them a shitload of special snowflake fiscality otherwise they go all pissy.

# ? Jun 24, 2017 09:44

Kurtofan: Feb 16, 2011; hon hon hon

we dont take kindly to taxes in these parts :bahgawd:

(well except the revolutionary tax of course)

theres a house in my grandparents village supposedly cursed because that's where the tax collector set up shop in the olden days

interesting video:

http://www.ina.fr/video/RAF02009406

a neighbour often told me "que dieu te b�nisse/que dieu le b�nisse" (may god bless you/may god bless him"), I never thought of it has a good luck charm (as explained in the video) against the ochju (mauvais oeil/malocchio)

bonus picture:

Kurtofan fucked around with this message at 10:07 on Jun 24, 2017

# ? Jun 24, 2017 09:46

Collateral Damage: Jun 13, 2009

Kassad posted:

Yep, no need for any of that feminism over here in Europe, no siree!

The nordic countries have a considerably broader definition of domestic violence than most other European countries which tends to skew these statistics. And unlike large parts of (mainly eastern) Europe there isn't a social stigma against reporting it.

Not saying the fight for women's rights is over, far from it. But comparing countries like this is pretty useless because there are many more factors at play.

# ? Jun 24, 2017 11:56

Kurtofan: Feb 16, 2011; hon hon hon

haha the corsican mps want to form a regionalist group in the assembly with overseas mps and jean lassalle :allears:

i hope they do it

gently caress i hope they do it

https://twitter.com/FTViaStella/status/878557435119718400

Kurtofan fucked around with this message at 12:38 on Jun 24, 2017

# ? Jun 24, 2017 12:29

Kassad: Nov 12, 2005; It's about time.

Collateral Damage posted:

The nordic countries have a considerably broader definition of domestic violence than most other European countries which tends to skew these statistics. And unlike large parts of (mainly eastern) Europe there isn't a social stigma against reporting it.

Not saying the fight for women's rights is over, far from it. But comparing countries like this is pretty useless because there are many more factors at play.

I only meant to show that domestic violence is prevalent in Europe and thus that feminism is very much needed here and not just in "a place like Japan". The image just struck me as useful since it showed stats for all EU countries which shows that the problem exists in all of them. Even ignoring what you pointed out about better reporting in Scandinavia, the average being 33% is horrendous.

# ? Jun 24, 2017 12:43

orange sky: May 7, 2007

So who's gonna be the scapegoat for another random roaming mob in Germany?

We're they Buddhist?

# ? Jun 24, 2017 12:47

GaussianCopula: Jun 5, 2011; Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

This is the guy that duped the UK into committing economic suicide

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/878328992599728128

Kinda makes you think how these people were able to basically rule the world just 150 years ago.

Kassad posted:

I only meant to show that domestic violence is prevalent in Europe and thus that feminism is very much needed here and not just in "a place like Japan". The image just struck me as useful since it showed stats for all EU countries which shows that the problem exists in all of them. Even ignoring what you pointed out about better reporting in Scandinavia, the average being 33% is horrendous.

I'm not sure how quotas for board members (or a whole slew of other feminist issues) are going to help with domestic violence, as I don't think a lot of wives get beaten because they did not make it on the board of a company.

But actually reducing domestic violence is of course very important and I don't see it as part of identity politics.

orange sky posted:

So who's gonna be the scapegoat for another random roaming mob in Germany?

We're they Buddhist?

Which mob?

# ? Jun 24, 2017 13:58

Collateral Damage: Jun 13, 2009

Kassad posted:

Even ignoring what you pointed out about better reporting in Scandinavia, the average being 33% is horrendous.

I definitely agree. I'm not saying the Nordics/France/Netherlands/UK should have lower numbers in that map, rather that it's more likely that the true number is higher than presented for everyone else.

# ? Jun 24, 2017 14:00

Shibawanko: Feb 13, 2013

Kassad posted:

I only meant to show that domestic violence is prevalent in Europe and thus that feminism is very much needed here and not just in "a place like Japan". The image just struck me as useful since it showed stats for all EU countries which shows that the problem exists in all of them. Even ignoring what you pointed out about better reporting in Scandinavia, the average being 33% is horrendous.

I didn't say that it didn't make sense in Europe, I meant that having seen a situation in Japan, where a lot of violence against women and objectification of women really is a result of ingrained cultural habits and ignorance, it makes more sense to practice the kind of feminism that focuses on female identity in that kind of place. I remember after the Tohoku earthquake for example, a local governor sent back an aid package of menstrual pads because "this is not the time for sex". Men and women are treated utterly differently in public discourse in Japan, on TV and so on, without any embarrassment. I don't think that this is really the case in Europe. What I'm saying is that there is a time and place for identity, but not every problem is solved by talking about identity in the way idpol does.

# ? Jun 24, 2017 14:06

Hambilderberglar: Dec 2, 2004

https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-homepage/28716/eu-leaders-agree-start-enhanced-cooperation-defence_en

That was fast. Why can the EU only move with some loving pep in its step when they have a crisis breathing down their neck?

# ? Jun 24, 2017 14:46

Mikl: Nov 8, 2009; Vote shit sandwich or the shit sandwich gets it!

unpacked robinhood posted:

Don't forget to give them a shitload of special snowflake fiscality otherwise they go all pissy.

We already give special fiscality to Sicily and Sardinia. And Trentino. And Friuli. What's one more region? :yeah:

# ? Jun 24, 2017 14:47

YF-23: Feb 17, 2011; My god, it's full of cat!

Hambilderberglar posted:

https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-homepage/28716/eu-leaders-agree-start-enhanced-cooperation-defence_en

That was fast. Why can the EU only move with some loving pep in its step when they have a crisis breathing down their neck?

Curb your enthusiasm, EU leaders agreeing that they should do a thing is not the same thing as actually doing the thing.

# ? Jun 24, 2017 15:11

Hambilderberglar: Dec 2, 2004

YF-23 posted:

Curb your enthusiasm, EU leaders agreeing that they should do a thing is not the same thing as actually doing the thing.

My optimism is primarily on the topic of having agreed to something. Usually even that is like pulling teeth. Especially on the issue of defence, but now that Britain's being shown the door I guess the biggest spoiler against has left.

Optimism aside, the EU's (emerging) development as a hard power actor is interesting and I really wonder where we will end up after two terms of the Trump presidency on issues like strategic autonomy.

# ? Jun 24, 2017 15:14

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Hambilderberglar posted:

My optimism is primarily on the topic of having agreed to something. Usually even that is like pulling teeth. Especially on the issue of defence, but now that Britain's being shown the door I guess the biggest spoiler against has left.

Optimism aside, the EU's (emerging) development as a hard power actor is interesting and I really wonder where we will end up after two terms of the Trump presidency on issues like strategic autonomy.

Only two terms?

# ? Jun 24, 2017 15:21

Hambilderberglar: Dec 2, 2004

blowfish posted:

Only two terms?

They'll run Mike Pence in 2024 as Donald's mental deficiencies become more pronounced and he cracks under the stress of his job. Or remove term limits. I'm not sure.

# ? Jun 24, 2017 15:30

Pinch Me Im Meming: Jun 26, 2005

Mikl posted:

We already give special fiscality to Sicily and Sardinia. And Trentino. And Friuli. What's one more region?

Sign here.

# ? Jun 24, 2017 16:03

Kurtofan: Feb 16, 2011; hon hon hon

Mikl posted:

We already give special fiscality to Sicily and Sardinia. And Trentino. And Friuli. What's one more region?

no wonder italy is a mess

# ? Jun 24, 2017 18:23

Squalid: Nov 4, 2008

Hambilderberglar posted:

My optimism is primarily on the topic of having agreed to something. Usually even that is like pulling teeth. Especially on the issue of defence, but now that Britain's being shown the door I guess the biggest spoiler against has left.

Optimism aside, the EU's (emerging) development as a hard power actor is interesting and I really wonder where we will end up after two terms of the Trump presidency on issues like strategic autonomy.

So does this mean next time France decides it needs to put R�publique centrafricaine back in its place or stomp some uppity Touareg, Germany will have to pay for it? Or is there going to be complicated EU negotiations before any military action with every micro state able to play spoiler?

# ? Jun 24, 2017 20:29

Hambilderberglar: Dec 2, 2004

Squalid posted:

So does this mean next time France decides it needs to put R�publique centrafricaine back in its place or stomp some uppity Touareg, Germany will have to pay for it? Or is there going to be complicated EU negotiations before any military action with every micro state able to play spoiler?

We're going to build Francafrique and make Germany pay for it!
I assume EU battlegroups will eventually need to be the sole competency of the EU, if for no other reason than I don't really see the current feelgood scenario of integrated units in the form of the NL-DE corps or its ilk being anything more than trial balloons for the idea of multinational forces (under the auspices of a common EU foreign policy).

# ? Jun 24, 2017 22:57

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Hambilderberglar posted:

We're going to build Francafrique and make Germany pay for it!
I assume EU battlegroups will eventually need to be the sole competency of the EU, if for no other reason than I don't really see the current feelgood scenario of integrated units in the form of the NL-DE corps or its ilk being anything more than trial balloons for the idea of multinational forces (under the auspices of a common EU foreign policy).

And, ultimately, they need to be able to deploy at the order of a hopefully more democratic EU executive, over the objections of random member states. It's no good having an EU battlegroup that can't actually go have a battle until enough pork has been put Belgium's way or whatever, sovereignty needs to be transferred to the EU in this regard.

# ? Jun 25, 2017 00:17

Squalid: Nov 4, 2008

blowfish posted:

And, ultimately, they need to be able to deploy at the order of a hopefully more democratic EU executive, over the objections of random member states. It's no good having an EU battlegroup that can't actually go have a battle until enough pork has been put Belgium's way or whatever, sovereignty needs to be transferred to the EU in this regard.

Sooo more or less a United States of Europe? With centralized control over both economic and military foreign relations, what sovereignty would be left to the constituent states?

Squalid fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Jun 25, 2017

# ? Jun 25, 2017 01:14

Hambilderberglar: Dec 2, 2004

blowfish posted:

And, ultimately, they need to be able to deploy at the order of a hopefully more democratic EU executive, over the objections of random member states. It's no good having an EU battlegroup that can't actually go have a battle until enough pork has been put Belgium's way or whatever, sovereignty needs to be transferred to the EU in this regard.

Belgiums pork is its continued existence rather than being partitioned like a contemporary Poland. You aren't wrong on any of this, which is why the current EUBGs are essentially worthless from an operational standpoint. Im hoping there are enough occasions for lessons learned between it and NATO exercises that once we do start deploying integrated units that at least we will have basic operational realities figured out. Or a pan european procurement system.

What do you see as a sufficiently democratically legitimate institution to invest the power of are troops in?

# ? Jun 25, 2017 01:16

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Why would we even want to copy American/French military adventurism, that poo poo's for retards. Just make a mutual defense pact, develop a super weapon that sends Russia into another dimension, and then enjoy an eternity of peace.

# ? Jun 25, 2017 06:45

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

Squalid posted:

Sooo more or less a United States of Europe? With centralized control over both economic and military foreign relations, what sovereignty would be left to the constituent states?

I think the idea behind a (hopefully more democratic) USE would be to drop the sovereignty of the constituent states to zero. I mean, if you want a superstate, go all the way or go bust.

# ? Jun 25, 2017 07:16

Rappaport: Oct 2, 2013

Libluini posted:

I think the idea behind a (hopefully more democratic) USE would be to drop the sovereignty of the constituent states to zero. I mean, if you want a superstate, go all the way or go bust.

I realize the Austrian corporal had some kind of bizarre spell over your people, but that was 70 years ago man, let it go

# ? Jun 25, 2017 07:18

SaltyJesus: Jun 2, 2011; Arf!

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Why would we even want to copy American/French military adventurism, that poo poo's for retards. Just make a mutual defense pact, develop a super weapon that sends Russia into another dimension, and then enjoy an eternity of peace.

Says the descendant of Vikings, about a continent that at one point or another conquered literally every square kilometer of the inhabitable Earth barring like half a dozen countries.

# ? Jun 25, 2017 07:28

Andrast: Apr 21, 2010

SaltyJesus posted:

Says the descendant of Vikings, about a continent that at one point or another conquered literally every square kilometer of the inhabitable Earth barring like half a dozen countries.

Oh right, let's continue doing that then

# ? Jun 25, 2017 07:31

SaltyJesus: Jun 2, 2011; Arf!

It's just a bit funny to limit it to the Americans and the French.

# ? Jun 25, 2017 07:32

Torrannor: Apr 27, 2013; ---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE

Squalid posted:

Sooo more or less a United States of Europe? With centralized control over both economic and military foreign relations, what sovereignty would be left to the constituent states?

It could be like in the USA. Keep the European Parliament, and make a Senate in which each country has one vote.

# ? Jun 25, 2017 08:13

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

SaltyJesus posted:

Says the descendant of Vikings, about a continent that at one point or another conquered literally every square kilometer of the inhabitable Earth barring like half a dozen countries.

The vikings were a religiously persecuted group that attempted mutually beneficial cultural exchanges, but were so often rebuffed by their oppressors that they were forced to arms to defend themselves, though eventually the superior forces of intolerance assimilated them. Don't lump them in with the continuation of the system which destroyed their rich and vibrant culture.

SaltyJesus posted:

It's just a bit funny to limit it to the Americans and the French.

It's because I'm talking about the modern day.

# ? Jun 25, 2017 08:20

Rappaport: Oct 2, 2013

Torrannor posted:

It could be like in the USA. Keep the European Parliament, and make a Senate in which each country has one vote.

They have two, actually, in the US version

# ? Jun 25, 2017 08:20

Deltasquid: Apr 10, 2013; awww...
you guys made me ink!

THUNDERDOME

Torrannor posted:

It could be like in the USA. Keep the European Parliament, and make a Senate in which each country has one vote.

Keep the parliament, reform the Council to only have majority voting (qualified majority voting for a few hot topics if the countries complain about it)

Form a EU-wide army but let the states keep their own national guards so they don't feel too emasculated. But make sure all the cool gadgets and tanks and aircraft carriers and marine divisions built in the future are under EU control so we can start loving up countries abroad like the USA.

# ? Jun 25, 2017 08:35

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# ? May 29, 2024 22:32

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

Torrannor posted:

It could be like in the USA. Keep the European Parliament, and make a Senate in which each country has one vote.

So the EC then

# ? Jun 25, 2017 08:36

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