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WampaLord posted:Johnny in The Room is the purest expression of Mary Sue I can think of.
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Jun 26, 2017 15:01
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Lightning Lord posted:IMO the real meaning of Mary Sue is a character who sweeps into an existing thing and steals the limelight completely and has the characters from the original milieu fawn over them, etc it's thanks to maximus landis lord of idiots misuing the term in regards to rey that it spread around the net.
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Jun 26, 2017 15:03
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Groovelord Neato posted:it's thanks to maximus landis lord of idiots misuing the term in regards to rey that it spread around the net. No it's been used all over the place to mean "any character competent in a way a fiction protagonist is, especially a woman" way before that
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Jun 26, 2017 15:06
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WampaLord posted:To me, the problem is pacing. In A New Hope, we see Luke block one drone shot with the Force, and then he does the one big shot at the end. He didn't start doing really cool poo poo on the regular until he trained with Yoda, in an entirely separate movie.. Same. The problem with Rey isn't that she's a Mary Sue (she's not), it's just that I think there's nothing compelling about her story. Is she gonna train with Luke and get better? Who gives a poo poo, she's already good enough to beat her darkside counterpart. Is she going to redeem Kylo Ren? I have enough trouble with Darth Vader's redemption, and Ren's body count is even higher already.
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Jun 26, 2017 15:07
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Lightning Lord posted:Is your namesake a Mary Sue? He's the super rad king of a dying race of magical noble warriors who are the last thing standing between the world and total devastation Yes, but also it's a name that sounds cool so I stole it.
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Jun 26, 2017 15:09
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Groovelord Neato posted:it's thanks to maximus landis lord of idiots misuing the term in regards to rey that it spread around the net. Yes, and people are far more willing to level that complaint against a female character than a male, despite said female having very little to separate them from other idealised 'overly perfect' male protagonists. Which was my original point, I don't care for the term and even with these competent characters, sometimes that's not the point in a particular narrative.
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Jun 26, 2017 15:09
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Jonas Albrecht posted:Same. The problem with Rey isn't that she's a Mary Sue (she's not), it's just that I think there's nothing compelling about her story. Is she gonna train with Luke and get better? Who gives a poo poo, she's already good enough to beat her darkside counterpart. Is she going to redeem Kylo Ren? I have enough trouble with Darth Vader's redemption, and Ren's body count is even higher already. I wish they really pushed the idea that Ren had his rear end kicked before that fight. Yeah, it's there but they left some reasonable doubt that let people get away with saying Rey's Superman now Jonas Albrecht posted:Yes, but also it's a name that sounds cool so I stole it. That's the origin story of my username too
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Jun 26, 2017 15:12
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Maluco Marinero posted:Yes, and people are far more willing to level that complaint against a female character than a male, despite said female having very little to separate them from other idealised 'overly perfect' male protagonists. Which was my original point, I don't care for the term and even with these competent characters, sometimes that's not the point in a particular narrative. Right. No one calls Tom Cruise's character in War of the Worlds a Mary Sue, despite being much closer to the model. In particular the scene where he's walking by a seasoned mechanic and instantly tells him what's wrong with the car. Or how he's the best boat loader, or how he's the one who notices the birds on the craft and tells the army guys to fire...
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Jun 26, 2017 15:13
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My character's name is Darkendo Void, he has a dark and troubled past on his way to surpassing WhaleBot to claim his rightful place as the True Pedant
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Jun 26, 2017 15:15
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kylo ren was heavily injured before their fight and the movie points that out very obviously. he also just killed his dad. he also didn't want to kill her.
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Jun 26, 2017 15:21
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Maluco Marinero posted:Yes, and people are far more willing to level that complaint against a female character than a male, despite said female having very little to separate them from other idealised 'overly perfect' male protagonists. Which was my original point, I don't care for the term and even with these competent characters, sometimes that's not the point in a particular narrative. Real Mary Sues are bad characters. Boring & irritating, a black hole that taints the realization of other characters by forcing them to orbit. When a character is labeled a Mary Sue they're being called a bad character that hurts the story. I dont think there's any narrative that actually requires a mary sue to pull off....
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Jun 26, 2017 15:22
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There are some but they're bad narratives that really shouldn't be told.
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Jun 26, 2017 15:23
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Lightning Lord posted:IMO the real meaning of Mary Sue is a character who sweeps into an existing thing and steals the limelight completely and has the characters from the original milieu fawn over them, etc You must be talking about the famous baby 'arry Potter
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Jun 26, 2017 15:33
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Dmitri-9 posted:You must be talking about the famous baby 'arry Potter Except that he frequently makes mistakes, is aware that it's only a twist of fate and no merit of his own that made him the hero, and his friends and allies are frequently better than him at things? (This one is just a pet peeve of mine. I'm not even that much of a Harry Potter fan)
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Jun 26, 2017 15:40
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Dmitri-9 posted:You must be talking about the famous baby 'arry Potter Children's adventure stories are full of "self-insert" characters, after a fashion, in that they're meant to be easy for kids to identify with and project themselves into. "Regular everyday kids" who are simultaneously chosen and special combine relatability with material for an exciting adventure and also the kind of power fantasy that appeals to kids. Luke Skywalker arguably fits this category, though I don't know if it's a misunderstanding to call it a mary sue.
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Jun 26, 2017 15:41
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Tangential to Youtube Intellectuals- are there suggestions for geek culture personalities that are good and not problematic? I quite enjoy game/movie reviews, news, and commentary, but hate running into some toxic chucklefuck. Like, the 'Screw Attack' is as edgy a channel as I give a poo poo to listen to, and that's mostly because Death Battle is neat nerd fantasy fulfilment. I follow Kotaku, The Know, LGR, Cinemassacre, and Channel Awesome. Pleaset don't tell me LGR, AVGN, and Guy With the Glasses are all Milkshake Ducks. More on topic: Does anybody else find it cringeworthy the term 'Youtube Intellectual' evokes people like Sargon and not, I don't know... Vsauce? PBS Idea Channel/Spacetime/It's OK to be smart/etc.? Braincraft? Veritasium? Numberphile? Smarter Every Day? CGP Grey? Kurzgesagt? Any of the Green brothers channels? I get so much of my entertainment from Youtube these days, and these channels make me incredibly optimistic of Youtube's capacity for improving education. Only think keeping be believing 'Youtube is a net good for society' 
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Jun 26, 2017 16:09
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JVNO posted:Tangential to Youtube Intellectuals- are there suggestions for geek culture personalities that are good and not problematic? I quite enjoy game/movie reviews, news, and commentary, but hate running into some toxic chucklefuck. Like, the 'Screw Attack' is as edgy a channel as I give a poo poo to listen to, and that's mostly because Death Battle is neat nerd fantasy fulfilment. As far as I know, LGR seems cool, as well as AVGN, though Mike Matei is a total dick. I don't think Doug is "problematic" just an idiot who couldn't run a business well, though I'm sure there's plenty of people who worked for him who have beef. As for good reviewers, I like Joseph Anderson, he's not political/problematic at all and does really good long form video reviews of games.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:12
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aware of dog posted:Can everyone just stop using the term Mary Sue in general, it's really stupid to use it outside of the context of self-inserts and fan fiction, and an obviously gendered insult at that.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:14
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I like Bob's takedowns of Cinemasins's "Everything Wrong With" videos.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:16
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JVNO posted:More on topic: Does anybody else find it cringeworthy the term 'Youtube Intellectual' evokes people like Sargon and not, I don't know... Vsauce? PBS Idea Channel/Spacetime/It's OK to be smart/etc.? Braincraft? Veritasium? Numberphile? Smarter Every Day? CGP Grey? Kurzgesagt? Any of the Green brothers channels? I get so much of my entertainment from Youtube these days, and these channels make me incredibly optimistic of Youtube's capacity for improving education. Only think keeping be believing 'Youtube is a net good for society' Numberphile and Smarter Every Day have a communicator who isn't afraid to draw on academics and others to tell them what's going on, they make no claim to their own superior intellect.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:21
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JVNO posted:Tangential to Youtube Intellectuals- are there suggestions for geek culture personalities that are good and not problematic? I quite enjoy game/movie reviews, news, and commentary, but hate running into some toxic chucklefuck. Like, the 'Screw Attack' is as edgy a channel as I give a poo poo to listen to, and that's mostly because Death Battle is neat nerd fantasy fulfilment. LGR is cool. Check out his buddy PushingUpRoses btw WampaLord posted:Mike Matei is a total dick.  Who What Now posted:I like Bob's takedowns of Cinemasins's "Everything Wrong With" videos. Shaun and Jen did a couple of these too
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Jun 26, 2017 16:31
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Lightning Lord posted:I wish they really pushed the idea that Ren had his rear end kicked before that fight. Yeah, it's there but they left some reasonable doubt that let people get away with saying Rey's Superman now Honestly I don't think it would have mattered. Pain and even injuries are real abstract and difficult to convey without a really obvious gushing wound. Doubly so for nerds who indulge heavily in media where neither really exist at all. It's not surprising that the fact Ren has to pause in the middle of the fight so he can wail on himself to keep going, which is also a bit weird and hard to understand, didn't connect with a lot of people. Really the only thing they probably could have done would be to have some shots, either from Ren's perspective or focused on him, with the generic whining pain noise and blurry pain filters all over it. edit: I mean I guess they could have had closeups of his face and he's gritting his teeth or something? Like that's the other issue, the general way humans express pain don't really mesh well with the character of Murderlord the Living Hateboner. TGLT fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Jun 26, 2017 |
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Jun 26, 2017 16:32
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TGLT posted:Honestly I don't think it would have mattered. Pain and even injuries are real abstract and difficult to convey without a really obvious gushing wound. Doubly so for nerds who indulge heavily in media where neither really exist at all. It's not surprising that the fact Ren has to pause in the middle of the fight so he can wail on himself to keep going, which is also a bit weird and hard to understand, didn't connect with a lot of people. Really the only thing they probably could have done would be to have some shots, either from Ren's perspective or focused on him, with the generic whining pain noise and blurry pain filters all over it. They had Han blow a stormtrooper off his feet and flung way back specifically to show that the bowcaster will gently caress your poo poo up. I thought it was pretty obvious that Kylo was in a bad way. Also he was a whiny nerd and you don't need to be anything special to beat a nerd in a glowstick fight.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:37
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Who What Now posted:Also he was a whiny nerd and you don't need to be anything special to beat a nerd in a glowstick fight. Here I think the problem was Ren doing the most amazing thing ever in the first 5 minutes of the move (freezing the bolt with the Force), which is a great way to set him up as a powerful villain, but is maybe raising the stakes too much.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:41
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WampaLord posted:Here I think the problem was Ren doing the most amazing thing ever in the first 5 minutes of the move (freezing the bolt with the Force), which is a great way to set him up as a powerful villain, but is maybe raising the stakes too much. Honestly in spite of that the impression I always got of Ren is that he's just kind of a loser. I mean he's got the goofy overcompensating lightsaber that to me gives the impression of being only barely functional and spends most of his time doing just kind of pitiful poo poo. Then he gets his poo poo wrecked and fights someone else before he fights Rey, who's meanwhile in max motivation mode which is generally where the Force starts being a serious wildcard.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:51
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Feinne posted:Honestly in spite of that the impression I always got of Ren is that he's just kind of a loser. I mean he's got the goofy overcompensating lightsaber that to me gives the impression of being only barely functional and spends most of his time doing just kind of pitiful poo poo. Then he gets his poo poo wrecked and fights someone else before he fights Rey, who's meanwhile in max motivation mode which is generally where the Force starts being a serious wildcard. Which is why it's weird to show him pulling that off early on. It would be more effective if we slowly realize all his power is projection and he's actually a rookie.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:54
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JVNO posted:I follow Kotaku, The Know, LGR, Cinemassacre, and Channel Awesome. Pleaset don't tell me LGR, AVGN, and Guy With the Glasses are all Milkshake Ducks. Have you thought about Jim Sterling/Jimquisition? He only does videogame stuff, but he's pretty much on the SJW (as in, not being an rear end in a top hat to minorities) boat.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:54
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Jim is who the shitlords would lionise if they actually gave a single poo poo about ethics in videogame journalism.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:57
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Hbomberguy does half mocking of bad youtubers, half talking endlessly about Videogames. I think he gets more views on his gaming stuff actually, though i'd wager he gets more patreon from the social stuff.
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Jun 26, 2017 16:57
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aware of dog posted:Can everyone just stop using the term Mary Sue in general, it's really stupid to use it outside of the context of self-inserts and fan fiction, and an obviously gendered insult at that. mary sue is a gendered insult
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Jun 26, 2017 17:01
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Maluco Marinero posted:To be honest I put absolutely no thought into what male protagonists would be Mary Sue fanfic, but honestly it feels like 'all of them' would be only be slightly hyperbolic. john mclaine has is a lovely father and lovely husband whose wife is super successful in the corporate world and he fucks a lot of poo poo up, I wouldn't say he's super competent
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Jun 26, 2017 17:03
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WampaLord posted:Really the true solution is just to ignore Twitter. Even the good thread favorite youtube intellectuals have some really embarrassingly bad poo poo on their Twitter.
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Jun 26, 2017 17:05
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Die Hard would be a much shorter film if he was half as over-powered as the average Gary-Stu. Heck his biggest handicap in the movie, being shoeless, is sparked from him feeling ill from the plane journey and being given a folk remedy that he has a go with.
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Jun 26, 2017 17:07
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Dongicus posted:Even the good thread favorite youtube intellectuals have some really embarrassingly bad poo poo on their Twitter. Have any of them pulled an Eichenwald tho?
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Jun 26, 2017 17:07
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WampaLord posted:Which is why it's weird to show him pulling that off early on. It would be more effective if we slowly realize all his power is projection and he's actually a rookie. He's not a rookie though. His fatal flaw is that he's deeply insecure, not that he's incapable. It's why he fucks up and ultimately lets the group escape Jakuu with BB-8 in the first place, and why he fucks off when he captures Rey instead of hanging around to grab BB-8 as insurance. The Last Order probably could have killed them all at the start and he probably could have grabbed BB-8 the second time they fought, but he has an overwhelming need to prove how big and bad and tough he is. edit: poo poo, even his refusal to kill Rey comes out of his desire to do something impressive instead of doing something safe. TGLT fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Jun 26, 2017 |
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Jun 26, 2017 17:11
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AttitudeAdjuster posted:Jim is who the shitlords would lionise if they actually gave a single poo poo about ethics in videogame journalism. This is very true. It's odd to say that I primarily listen to video game stuff from a guy who talks a good bit about ethics in games journalism. It's just that when it's not being used as a cover for harassing women in gaming, the subject is very interesting and not at all shitlordy. Only thing I should add is that at least on his main podcast, Laura Dale's stuff is edgy in the NSFW sense. She reviews a bunch of very odd and very inapprops games, as in the Robert Yang stuff. It's also the only game hype podcast I bother to listen to, since most of the big podcasts I've seen are either just industry front pieces or are run by verified shitlords like Total Biscuit. Also, there's lots of discussion about lower profile games, so if you are interested in the low end of Steam, they go into some diamonds in the shitpile quite a bit. His videogame movie podcast (Spinoff Doctors/Movie Boys) is also very good, but you will not find either of the hosts having much nice to say about the very bad video game spinoff movies they review. But it's not mean in the standard shitlord sense, and more in the "How the hell did this poo poo get filmed?" sense. Them savaging Pixels was a thing of beauty.
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Jun 26, 2017 17:16
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WampaLord posted:Which is why it's weird to show him pulling that off early on. It would be more effective if we slowly realize all his power is projection and he's actually a rookie. Yeah, it was like, "Whoa, super powerful!" but then he gets depowered later on in the movie. It's my secret hope that the twist later in the series is that Snoke is just a despot and not a Force user, and only "turned" Kylo Ren as a psychological weapon against Leia and the others.
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Jun 26, 2017 17:20
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aware of dog posted:And for the record, this includes Luke freaking Skywalker The guy got extremely lucky in the A New Hope and had Obi-Wan guiding him the entire time and Han had to bail him out in the Leia Rescue (Leia out of the three heroes being the most competent interestingly) and at the end by blowing up the Death Star. In the Empire Strikes Back he narrowly survived the battle of Hoth wrecking his ship in the process, messed up his training with Yoda and ran off to save his friends and failed leading to Han being frozen in Carbonite and losing a duel with Vader losing his hand. Only in Return of the Jedi did he approach the broken Mary Sue level with the rescuing of Han from Jabba and even then he had his team backing him up. At the end he hosed up again and nearly succumbed to the Dark Side and only really won because Vader had enough and bodyslammed the Emperor down the exhaust pipe. Rey on the other hand is like a video game character come to life and succeeds in becoming a Jedi in a couple of days and never fucks up which makes for a boring protagonist. Rouge One is a better film than the Force Awakens because at least Jyn is an actual character and not just a audience surrogate for little kids. Intrinsic Field Marshal fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Jun 26, 2017 |
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Jun 26, 2017 17:30
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Is there a Star Wars equivalent of Godwin's law?
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Jun 26, 2017 17:35
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AttitudeAdjuster posted:Is there a Star Wars equivalent of Godwin's law? It probably includes aesthetic evaluation of the prequels.
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Jun 26, 2017 17:37
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