|
ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:Gross oversimplification of the situation. if only there were a way to build...more... operating rooms?
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 06:40 |
|
|
ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:Unless major efforts were made to train more medical professionals, and a decent amount of money invested in the system it would suffer the same fate as the NHS. Oh no, anything but that. Do you know that there's a difference between the NHS and single payer?
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:11
|
|
|
ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:Unless major efforts were made to train more medical professionals, and a decent amount of money invested in the system it would suffer the same fate as the NHS. As opposed to waiting on an insurance preauth, appealing an auto denial and then scheduling months out? The "big delays" in socialized medicine complaint from Americans assumes that they mean big delays in addition to the delays in the current system. They're not, it's all pretty similar and most of it he triage anyways (see: "why did I have to wait hours in ER!")
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:12
|
|
|
the fate of the NHS: ridiculously better numbers than us in literally everything except for five-year survival rates on some of the rarer kinds of cancer
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:12
|
|
|
Ze Pollack posted:the fate of the NHS: ridiculously better numbers than us in literally everything except for five-year survival rates on some of the rarer kinds of cancer Ok lets invite some of the people from UKMT in here and ask them about how good of an idea it is to hand the government control of health care when the country just elected a literal fascist dictator and one of the parties like punishing poor people for fun.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:16
|
|
|
ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:You don't seem to understand that Healthcare is a limited resource. Really thought this was a successful attempt to be humorous when you first posted it, but no, it's really the line you've chosen. Our strategic healthcare reserves are running on fumes, and soon we shall reach Peak Healthcare. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:17
|
|
|
ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:Ok lets invite some of the people from UKMT in here and ask them about how good of an idea it is to hand the government control of health care when the country just elected a literal fascist dictator and one of the parties like punishing poor people for fun. turns out they run a government health-care service poorly. the thing is, the incentive structures are such that even they cannot make it worse than our system, because even the most rapacious poor-murdering prick is confronted with the economic reality that it will actually cost them more to offer minorities less healthcare. it's been ten years of right-wing rule over there, man. the NHS still brutally kicks our asses, in both money spent per capita and number of people dying in agony that could have been averted.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:20
|
|
|
it is a reasonable point that single-payer is dangerous while the republican party exists how you deal with that problem, however...
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:22
|
|
|
Single payer doesn't have to mean government run hospitals.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:23
|
|
|
it's like waiting for the old rich dudes to die and convincing the younger rich dudes that they won't survive an actual prole revolution so it's in their best interest to start caring for the poor
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:24
|
|
|
Reik posted:Single payer doesn't have to mean government run hospitals. The difference between government run and the government is the only effective consumer is sort of a potato/pahtato thing. It's not really all that meaningful in practice.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:25
|
|
|
There is no actual consistent definition of single payer other than "what I imagine the mostest leftist health care is". People consistently call US Medicare single payer even though it is a system with multiple payers
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:28
|
|
|
ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:Ok lets invite some of the people from UKMT in here and ask them about how good of an idea it is to hand the government control of health care when the country just elected a literal fascist dictator and one of the parties like punishing poor people for fun. I've heard the NHS has some problems, but is it really worse than the AHCA/BCRA for the poor? That would be pretty interesting. Also, what's the UKMT? Google says the United Kingdom Mathematics Trust, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:30
|
|
|
Nationalized insurance is not nationalized healthcare. Think of any other government organization, and imagine if it was replaced with an industry of competing private service providers on contract. Say....the Navy. Seems like there'd be some significant differences.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:31
|
|
|
Hi, British person from the UKMT here. I've had abdominal pain for almost two weeks. In that time, I've had 3 doctors appointments, 1 A&E visit, and a bevy of tests which included a couple of ultrasounds and gotten two lots of prescription pills. All this cost me a grand total of £0. The NHS is loving great, and that's despite being systematically underfunded for several years now by our rightwing Government.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:31
|
|
|
Sir Kodiak posted:Also, what's the UKMT? Google says the United Kingdom Mathematics Trust, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. It's a thread.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:31
|
|
|
ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:Ok lets invite some of the people from UKMT in here and ask them about how good of an idea it is to hand the government control of health care when the country just elected a literal fascist dictator and one of the parties like punishing poor people for fun. I believe you will find that people in the UK overwhelmingly would prefer the NHS over our ghoulish system, MIGF. Serene Dragon posted:Hi, British person from the UKMT here. I've had abdominal pain for almost two weeks. In that time, I've had 3 doctors appointments, 1 A&E visit, and a bevy of tests which included a couple of ultrasounds and gotten two lots of prescription pills. See?
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:38
|
|
|
axeil posted:I believe you will find that people in the UK overwhelmingly would prefer the NHS over our ghoulish system, MIGF. I'm not comparing it to our current system. I'm comparing it to other forms of reform.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:42
|
|
|
didn't hawaii already have some form of single payer.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:48
|
|
|
Doc Hawkins posted:Nationalized insurance is not nationalized healthcare. If the government is the only one paying for services, it's not like a hospital can enter a different similar market. It's a large fixed capital cost that is effectively controlled by its only customer. You can get the benefit of free market competition when the goods/services the government is the sole buyer for are very similar to other things on the market, such that a potential contractor can switch between working for the government and working for private industry. In fact it might just be a little worse with no real benefit: it's much easier to siphon off corrupt payments with private contractors in the mix than when everyone's a government employee. But the hospital is still entirely under the control of the political process (except to the extent it can be an interest group that wags the dog, essentially). Its much more of a details issue than a real meaningful difference.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:49
|
|
|
Serene Dragon posted:Hi, British person from the UKMT here. I've had abdominal pain for almost two weeks. In that time, I've had 3 doctors appointments, 1 A&E visit, and a bevy of tests which included a couple of ultrasounds and gotten two lots of prescription pills. Funny how we get outright gloating from Brits and Canadians about their healthcare every single time this subject comes up but we somehow still believe socialized/universal healthcare is either secretly terrible or completely impossible.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:49
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/braddjaffy/status/879720322563538944
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:50
|
|
|
esquilax posted:There is no actual consistent definition of single payer other than "what I imagine the mostest leftist health care is". People consistently call US Medicare single payer even though it is a system with multiple payers See also people using Single Payer, Single Provider and Univeral Healthcare is interchangable terms.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:54
|
|
|
ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:Ok lets invite some of the people from UKMT in here and ask them about how good of an idea it is to hand the government control of health care when the country just elected a literal fascist dictator and one of the parties like punishing poor people for fun. If you think Theresa May is a fascist dictator, you should try reading US news sometime, or even worse, Russian. She's a typical Tory. And that sucks, but she's no dictator (wouldn't give her as much as even odds of being in power next year.) Sir Kodiak posted:I've heard the NHS has some problems, but is it really worse than the AHCA/BCRA for the poor? That would be pretty interesting. Bollocks is it worse than the BCRA. That is a healthcare system of "no healthcare for the poor" so how could it be better? British people constantly complain about the NHS, but that's because it needs constant voter interest not to be gradually whittled away by Tory cuts. Don't confuse "complaining about something" with "not liking something" especially where the British are involved. I think a lot of Americans are imagining something grim with seven year waiting lists for breast cancer, and dour, crowded wards. In fact, UK hospitals and doctors' offices look and function pretty similar to US ones. Including waiting times. It's not as if you just swan into a private US doctor's at the very minute of your appointment, is it? You get to wait.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:57
|
|
|
Rhesus Pieces posted:Funny how we get outright gloating from Brits and Canadians about their healthcare every single time this subject comes up but we somehow still believe socialized/universal healthcare is either secretly terrible or completely impossible. I'm not gloating, at least not intentionally. I am also upset and angry that the Democrats, the supposed progressive party, won't back anything remotely close to the NHS, or single-payer. I want all Americans to be able to do exactly what I did in these past two weeks. You guys all deserve universal healthcare too and I wish you had politicians willing to fight for it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 16:57
|
|
|
ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:Ok lets invite some of the people from UKMT in here and ask them about how good of an idea it is to hand the government control of health care when the country just elected a literal fascist dictator and one of the parties like punishing poor people for fun. I'm a Canadian living in the US right now and have had significant experience with health care in both countries. There's no comparison between the two systems, American health care is worse hands down. It's an expensive complicated mess and I'm honestly surprised Americans put up with it. You should feel bad about the terrible system you allow to continue to exist. Keep in mind that Canada just came out of 10 years of Conservative-rule (to say nothing of the Mulroney years), so you can't even blame it all on the Republicans. The arguments people make in these kinds of threads about how single-payer or universal healthcare is unrealistic or too hard to implement are kind of silly.That's not to say it's easy, I'm just saying Canada is a provincial backwater so if even we can do it you definitely can too.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 17:22
|
|
|
If the us attempts to implement single payer and it fails greatly how long will it be before a reasonable healthcare system is ever implemented in the country? if ever?
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 17:34
|
|
|
BarbarianElephant posted:I think a lot of Americans are imagining something grim with seven year waiting lists for breast cancer, and dour, crowded wards. This is, in fact, exactly what many Americans imagine socialized medicine is like. It's honestly gotten into urban legend territory where everyone "knows" someone with a family member who died of cancer they could have caught had they not been on the waiting list for a checkup for years.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 17:38
|
|
|
The best system for the US would be a "public option" rather than doing an NHS and the government saying to all doctors "You work for us now." That ain't gonna happen. But if all US citizens can rely on the government for a reasonably priced plan which can use its power to negotiate prices, then the whole cost spiral can be arrested without scared citizens having to immediately leave their trusted workplace plans.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 17:40
|
|
|
Hulk Krogan posted:This is, in fact, exactly what many Americans imagine socialized medicine is like. It's honestly gotten into urban legend territory where everyone "knows" someone with a family member who died of cancer they could have caught had they not been on the waiting list for a checkup for years. The NHS are ridiculously good at caring for my father's diabetes. He goes to regular checkups and his health has been fantastic since he was diagnosed - he has got a new lease of life. My mum had a worrying symptom a while back that might have been cancer, and the NHS was testing her so fast she couldn't blink (turned out to be nothing) - no waiting lists. My elderly uncle suffered a rare form of cancer and the NHS not only sent him to the top expert in the country, but paid to put him up in a hotel, too, because it is a long journey for him (recovery so far has been perfect.) Remember that all this was completely free (apart from a token fee for prescriptions which none of them paid as they are all over 60.) For most people, the NHS is fantastic. Not everyone though. No big organization is amazing all the way through. You can find horror stories if you are looking, some hospitals are bad - but for the average person, it is top notch.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 17:46
|
|
|
axeil posted:I believe you will find that people in the UK overwhelmingly would prefer the NHS over our ghoulish system, MIGF. Oh, is that what's going on here?
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 17:51
|
|
|
evilweasel posted:If the government is the only one paying for services, it's not like a hospital can enter a different similar market. It's a large fixed capital cost that is effectively controlled by its only customer. You can get the benefit of free market competition when the goods/services the government is the sole buyer for are very similar to other things on the market, such that a potential contractor can switch between working for the government and working for private industry. Well, we'll see. I'm only invested in the distinction to the degree that ThisIsWhy seems ignorant of it. It's not like I want to block Medicare-for-all for the sake of VA-for-all: single payer would help people and is economically and politically achievable, so bring it on.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 17:53
|
|
|
Nocturtle posted:I'm a Canadian living in the US right now and have had significant experience with health care in both countries. I live in Vermont so I'm close to the Canadian border. Our son has some issues with his ears so the specialist recommended tubes to help drain the fluid (both my wife and sister-in-law had similar problems growing up so it's not entirely unexpected). I was a little surprised and somewhat skeptical of the specialist's smug claim that he handles "a lot" of Canadian patients who "don't want to wait a year". Nothing political came up in our conversation so I did a mental-eye roll when he brought it up unsolicited. Is it possible for procedures like that to take so long to be scheduled in Canada?
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 17:54
|
|
|
Offer something like Medicare Advantage to everyone and require all doctors take a certain percent of patients as Medicare Advantage patients, and the higher percent of patients they have from this plan the higher their reimbursements for these patients. In addition to the basic Medicare Advantage plan let people purchase supplemental insurance that is 100% private sector. Also stop all the pharma company and medical device company shenanigans. I'm a fan of a smart single payer system.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 17:55
|
|
|
Healthcare is a limited resource and those Canadians are thieves.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 17:58
|
|
|
Cheesus posted:For the record, I'm a massive single-payer proponent. It honestly depends on the type of procedure, there are admittedly significant wait-times for certain kinds of specialists. If the procedure is cheap enough Canadians close to the boarder might just decide to pay to get it done. A year is not plausible for a relatively simple procedure though.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 18:00
|
|
|
The US already has a single payer system. It's called the VA and there are 6 million people getting care there. They also have a ton more services offered than regular insurance.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 18:02
|
|
|
BarbarianElephant posted:The best system for the US would be a "public option" rather than doing an NHS and the government saying to all doctors "You work for us now." That ain't gonna happen. But if all US citizens can rely on the government for a reasonably priced plan which can use its power to negotiate prices, then the whole cost spiral can be arrested without scared citizens having to immediately leave their trusted workplace plans.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 18:07
|
|
|
Nocturtle posted:It honestly depends on the type of procedure, there are admittedly significant wait-times for certain kinds of specialists. If the procedure is cheap enough Canadians close to the boarder might just decide to pay to get it done. A year is not plausible for a relatively simple procedure though. When people worry about healthcare, they are more worried about things like "Can I get chemo if I get cancer?" than "Can my kid get their ear tubes in 3 days rather than 3 months?" Non-painful, non-urgent procedures are always going to be way down the priority list in a fair healthcare system. It's not fair that a poor deaf kid can't get life-changing cochlear implants because the rich kids' parents can't stand to wait a couple of months for ear tubes to correct minor hearing issues.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 18:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 06:40 |
|
|
BarbarianElephant posted:When people worry about healthcare, they are more worried about things like "Can I get chemo if I get cancer?" than "Can my kid get their ear tubes in 3 days rather than 3 months?" Non-painful, non-urgent procedures are always going to be way down the priority list in a fair healthcare system. It's not fair that a poor deaf kid can't get life-changing cochlear implants because the rich kids' parents can't stand to wait a couple of months for ear tubes to correct minor hearing issues. This is a bad way to think about it because how do I judge what my care is likely to be like if it's serious? I judge it by how it is every day. That's my only experience with it. If I, or my kid, faces much longer waiting periods for non-emergency care in a new health care system I'm going to assume I will face a worse situation if I need more serious care in this new health care system and I'm not likely to be all that mollified by statistics. And that's not an unreasonable assumption: that's how we function all the time. If the system is bad at the little stuff, I'm not going to trust it when it comes to the big stuff because if it fucks up the big stuff I'm hosed.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2017 18:25
|
|