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ManofManyAliases posted:The bank could give a poo poo whether the game/whatever is finished or not. All they care about is CIG's opportunity and ability to pay back the debenture; it's about credit-worthiness. CIG must have shown the bank that they are capable of doing so. Let's see, it says here you haven't made a game in 15 years, you were fired from the last game publisher for overspending and under-delivering while being 3 years behind schedule, you bankrupted Ascendant pictures, you were responsible for the war crime known as "Wing Commander the Movie", you got sued by Kevin Costner for 8 million dollars and lost, your current game is years behind schedule, your only funding comes from presales of in game assets which can be refunded at any point prior to delivery of said game, said game also has no release date but is estimated to be 3 years away, you have an estimated overhead cost of 3 million dollars per month, your funding from presales is trending downward, your lawyer was involved in questionable buisness practices with another company that went bankrupt, your EP in the UK is your brother and your VP is your pornstar wife. Well you sound very credit-worthy! We'll just need you to put up everything you have, every thing you've made and everything you will make as collateral and we'll loan you about a month and a half's worth of bill payments.
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Jun 28, 2017 22:16
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MinorInconvenience posted:CIG says most of their money is in USD and EUR since that is where they raise their money (USA and Germany). The GBP is still 5 cents less than the prior 52 week's (i.e., post-Brexit vote) GBP:USD exchange rates and near the bottom of the prior 52 week's GBP:EUR exchange rates. Seems weird to pay 2.5% interest plus any transaction fees for what has to be only a few million GBP loan for a loan that is likely less than a year (the credits are yearly, I believe) (especially since F42 apparently earns/spends over 15GBP/year). A 2.5% interest rate on 5 million GBP would be 125,000 GBP. Is the pound going to fluctuate that much in a year to make it worthwhile? Yeah no, it feels a little weird, as you say, the term of the loan sounds like less than or equal to 12 months. But then forex hedging is not my area, so who knows... Anyone heard any rumours regarding the size of the loan?
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Jun 28, 2017 22:20
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ManofManyAliases posted:The bank could give a poo poo whether the game/whatever is finished or not. All they care about is CIG's opportunity and ability to pay back the debenture; it's about credit-worthiness. CIG must have shown the bank that they are capable of doing so. So do the bank care whether the game is finished or not?
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Jun 28, 2017 22:21
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hot balls man no homo posted:Let's see, it says here you haven't made a game in 15 years, you were fired from the last game publisher for overspending and under-delivering while being 3 years behind schedule, you bankrupted Ascendant pictures, you were responsible for the war crime known as "Wing Commander the Movie", you got sued by Kevin Costner for 8 million dollars and lost, your current game is years behind schedule, your only funding comes from presales of in game assets which can be refunded at any point prior to delivery of said game, said game also has no release date but is estimated to be 3 years away, you have an estimated overhead cost of 3 million dollars per month, your funding from presales is trending downward, your lawyer was involved in questionable buisness practices with another company that went bankrupt, your EP in the UK is your brother and your VP is your pornstar wife.
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Jun 28, 2017 22:22
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hot balls man no homo posted:Let's see, it says here you haven't made a game in 15 years, you were fired from the last game publisher for overspending and under-delivering while being 3 years behind schedule, you bankrupted Ascendant pictures, you were responsible for the war crime known as "Wing Commander the Movie", you got sued by Kevin Costner for 8 million dollars and lost, your current game is years behind schedule, your only funding comes from presales of in game assets which can be refunded at any point prior to delivery of said game, said game also has no release date but is estimated to be 3 years away, you have an estimated overhead cost of 3 million dollars per month, your funding from presales is trending downward, your lawyer was involved in questionable buisness practices with another company that went bankrupt, your EP in the UK is your brother and your VP is your pornstar wife.
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Jun 28, 2017 22:26
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spacetoaster posted:So if Chris Roberts goes to jail do you think the cultists will keep sending him gifts? I think so. Yeah, soap on a rope 
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Jun 28, 2017 22:28
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How could anyone think that SC funding is solid and reliable. The tracker is smoke and mirrors, mixing loan money with pledges/purchases and not deducting refunded money. And it's just not a reliable source of income, period- nobody has to give CIG money if they don't want to, and they aren't, as we are seeing now. Like even hardcore backers have to run out of poo poo to buy at some point. How many duplicates of something can you own? e: there are so many reasonable doubts to be had about the integrity of this project and to not heed or even acknowledge them signifies a much greater psychological issue
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Jun 28, 2017 22:31
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Rudager posted:Yep, and the bank was so confident they would play it back that they only took everything of value as collateral instead of just the tax credit! Sorry to inform you but that's a pretty standard agreement for a bank like Coutts. You can often collateralize more for securing a lower rate.
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Jun 28, 2017 22:32
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ManofManyAliases posted:The bank could give a poo poo whether the game/whatever is finished or not. All they care about is CIG's opportunity and ability to pay back the debenture; it's about credit-worthiness. CIG must have shown the bank that they are capable of doing so. First post on the page. Better post some cat tax. Or maybe you could care less.
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Jun 28, 2017 22:34
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C-Bangin' it 
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Shanghaied posted:Yeah no, it feels a little weird, as you say, the term of the loan sounds like less than or equal to 12 months. But then forex hedging is not my area, so who knows... Anyone heard any rumours regarding the size of the loan? I originally estimated 5 million GBP because the size of F42's tax credit last year appeared to be a little north of 3 million GBP. Just a little theory-crafting.
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Jun 28, 2017 22:34
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ManofManyAliases posted:Sorry to inform you but that's a pretty standard agreement for a bank like Coutts. You can often collateralize more for securing a lower rate. Yeah if the bank thinks that you won't be able to pay. Then this is true.
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Jun 28, 2017 22:35
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ManofManyAliases posted:Sorry to inform you but that's a pretty standard agreement for a bank like Coutts. You can often collateralize more for securing a lower rate. It's a standard agreement for any bank that don't actually expect the customer to be able to pay back, but who has a couple of assets they could sell off at a profit. For a bank like Coutts, it's just not that common that their type of customer would be in such dire straits.
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Jun 28, 2017 22:37
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ManofManyAliases posted:The bank could give a poo poo whether the game/whatever is finished or not. All they care about is CIG's opportunity and ability to pay back the debenture; it's about credit-worthiness. CIG must have shown the bank that they are capable of doing so. Unfortunately I think you'll find that CIG isn't going to care about whether the game is finished or not either. The bank doesn't care about the game being finished, the bank cares about CIG being solvent and the only way they're going to achieve that is by releasing the game. Yeah, true, at some point they're going to get a tax rebate which will be enough to pay off the debt so assuming the get that then the bank is never going to reposes the game - however, there is literally no reason CIG would take a loan like this if they didn't need to. The tax rebate isn't going to be all that big either, and we know their burn rate per month is in the millions. So think about what has to be happening to CIG's finances here. They're going to get a tax rebate, but they can't wait for it because they'll have run out of money, so they need the money now. They'll want to minimise the interest so they wouldn't have taken out a loan like this until the last minute. How big is the gap between them running out of money and getting the tax rebate? Does this loan cover the gap? If not, they must release in order to pay off the loan. If it does, then as soon as the rebate comes in they'll need to use that money to pay back the loan, plus interest - but we know they don't have enough money to last until the rebate, so after they pay back the loan they'll be out of money so they must release. Does anyone know how large their projected tax rebate is? Because if they're running on empty, divide the rebate by their monthly burn rate and that's how long CIG is able to last without releasing the game. Chalks fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Jun 28, 2017 |
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Jun 28, 2017 22:38
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Rudager posted:Yep, and the bank was so confident they would play it back that they only took everything of value as collateral instead of just the tax credit! I hate to agree with MoMA, but if the loan uses floating charge then it is pretty standard for it to cover all assets a company has. The actual issue is that this is supposed to be a company that has plenty of cash at hand, and the reasons that Ortwin gave for not transferring some cash to the UK and instead taking a loan, while possibly true, make them look like a company that doesn't have cash at hand. It was a dumb loving move if they have the cash (to save like half a % at best), and necessary if they don't.
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Jun 28, 2017 22:39
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When you have to resort to crowdfunding because you've famously failed to run a video game company, I think you should try to work within your $153 million budget and not take out loans.
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Jun 28, 2017 22:40
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Couldn't they just have used 5 million $ of their reserve as collateral in addition to the tax refund. Cash at least that should be good enough for a better rate?
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Jun 28, 2017 22:41
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Tank Boy Ken posted:Yeah if the bank thinks that you won't be able to pay. Then this is true. Look, I can see your company is in trouble. Now, we can loan you the value of the tax credit against the guaranteed value of the credit as collateral with a crazy high interest rate OR we can offer you a lower interest rate (still very high) if you use your company as collateral. You'd be saving so much money! *Banker visibly salivates* *Banker takes collateral after you miss one payment*
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Jun 28, 2017 22:44
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Tank Boy Ken posted:Couldn't they just have used 5 million $ of their reserve as collateral in addition to the tax refund. Cash at least that should be good enough for a better rate? That's the thing, they behave like a company that doesn't have the money. Which is not the best idea when you're entirely dependent on the good-will of the backers. We don't know the actual loan details, but it does look fishy, which is all that should have taken to avoid that deal if they have the money. In other words, this is yet again a "how incompetent do you think they are?" kinda thing, but this time if you think Ortwin was dumb, it means they are in a better position than otherwise. trucutru fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Jun 28, 2017 |
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Jun 28, 2017 22:45
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Tank Boy Ken posted:Couldn't they just have used 5 million $ of their reserve as collateral in addition to the tax refund. Cash at least that should be good enough for a better rate? If they had that kind of reserve, sure. What do you think the odds are that they expect a huge surge in pre-purchases “once” 3.0 is “out” and/or demo:ed (again) somewhere around CitCon?
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Jun 28, 2017 22:46
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Chalks posted:Does anyone know how large their projected tax rebate is? Because if they're running on empty, divide the rebate by their monthly burn rate and that's how long CIG is able to last without releasing the game. MinorInconvenience posted:the size of F42's tax credit last year appeared to be a little north of 3 million GBP Tank Boy Ken posted:Couldn't they just have used 5 million $ of their reserve as collateral in addition to the tax refund. Cash at least that should be good enough for a better rate? Yeah but why would you borrow if you already have the same amount of cash to post as collateral? Ortwin says it's all part of forex hedge, but since he also called it a discount loan, we know the term is most likely short (<12 months), so unless you are expecting MAJOR fluctuations in the USD/GBP and EUR/GBP rates in the next 12 months, it doesn't seem to be worth the cost. Hence why people say CIG is running into liquidity problems.
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Jun 28, 2017 22:53
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Tippis posted:It's a standard agreement for any bank that don't actually expect the customer to be able to pay back, but who has a couple of assets they could sell off at a profit. For a bank like Coutts, it's just not that common that their type of customer would be in such dire straits. If CIG were a real, healthy and normal company, collateral for a loan like this would likely only be the company's cash and accounts receivables (like a standard revolver loan). The company's PP&E would ordinarily not be security for such a loan. MoMA is kinda sorta wrong.
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Jun 28, 2017 22:53
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MinorInconvenience posted:MoMA is kinda sorta wrong. Shocking.
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Jun 28, 2017 22:55
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ManofManyAliases posted:The bank could give a poo poo whether the game/whatever is finished or not. All they care about is CIG's opportunity and ability to pay back the debenture; it's about credit-worthiness. CIG must have shown the bank that they are capable of doing so. I think the loan stuff is a fuss over nothing because it was obvious that time and money was fast running out before this, pressure is mounting and CIG are capable of producing nothing average, never mind good. Even producing something bad like Star Marine takes them years and two attempts. If there wasn't a legal requirement in the UK to register it, we wouldn't even know about. Please continue to explain how them taking out a loan after raising 153 million dollars is no big deal though as personally I find your attempts to justify it hilarious. If you get a spare minute list the Star Citizen ships you still own, as that's funny too. AP fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Jun 28, 2017 |
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Jun 28, 2017 22:56
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Shanghaied posted:
That seems far too low. If that's true then this rebate loan would only last them one month and it would mean that CIG would need to release the game before the end of the year or go bust. Bad as their situation seems, every estimate of their finances that we've seen have put them at around 20 million or more still remaining. There's no way they'd take out a loan with such steep collateral for just 3 million with 20 million in the bank.
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Jun 28, 2017 23:00
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Chalks posted:Bad as their situation seems, every estimate of their finances that we've seen have put them at around 20 million or more still remaining. There's no way they'd take out a loan with such steep collateral for just 3 million with 20 million in the bank. Wait, no, my own estimates put the at around 0 remaining. Because if you don't think that, after 5 years, they are not living hand to mouth then you haven't ever had a boss like Chris Roberts.
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Jun 28, 2017 23:03
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you will all be eating crow when the EU fractures and causes the value of currency to fluctuate so much that CIG now rules the mad max wasteland somehow because ship jpegs are worth more than gold.
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Jun 28, 2017 23:05
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MinorInconvenience posted:CIG says most of their money is in USD and EUR since that is where they raise their money (USA and Germany). The GBP is still 5 cents less than the prior 52 week's (i.e., post-Brexit vote) GBP:USD exchange rates and near the bottom of the prior 52 week's GBP:EUR exchange rates. Seems weird to pay 2.5% interest plus any transaction fees for what has to be only a few million GBP loan for a loan that is likely less than a year (the credits are yearly, I believe) (especially since F42 apparently earns/spends over 15GBP/year). A 2.5% interest rate on 5 million GBP would be 125,000 GBP. Is the pound going to fluctuate that much in a year to make it worthwhile? Nope, that was my point. This is someone cashing in a future payment through the dodgy finance equivalent of Amscot. Most pessimistic valuation of Sterling was 1.20 last year, but that's into 'run' territory; gains made from any fluctuation would be within the margin of fees. BMan posted:I love that the best explanation citizens have come up with is "Don't worry guys, CIG isn't broke, they're just using the borrowed money to speculate on the forex market
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Jun 28, 2017 23:08
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Chalks posted:That seems far too low. If that's true then this rebate loan would only last them one month and it would mean that CIG would need to release the game before the end of the year or go bust. We'll have to see the actual loan agreement to know for sure really. Ortwin claims that the loan is only an advance for the expected video game tax relief payment, but the tax relief is only one part of the collateral (which probably also includes whatever mo-cap equipment they used to make  , incidentally). They could have posted extra collaterals to secure a better rate, or Ortwin could have lied and the loan is much bigger.
Shanghaied fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Jun 28, 2017 |
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Jun 28, 2017 23:09
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Space Crabs posted:you will all be eating crow when the EU fractures and causes the value of currency to fluctuate so much that CIG now rules the mad max wasteland somehow because ship jpegs are worth more than gold. its the reddit army that will give them strength, as despite having no electrical grid to power computers they will continue to project a 3 month timeline and the faithful will follow
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Jun 28, 2017 23:10
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quote is not edit
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Jun 28, 2017 23:11
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Chalks posted:That seems far too low. If that's true then this rebate loan would only last them one month and it would mean that CIG would need to release the game before the end of the year or go bust. If the loan gets them to Citizen Con, the sale then, plus November & Christmas sales would get them to maybe March-June. Cutting head count would obviously help the most to extend beyond that, if they drastically cut heads they could even get another year or two, but the backer reaction to shutting a studio or two would be very unpredictable for their future income. I don't think you can estimate their remaining cash with any accuracy as I'm sure they've wasted shitloads on stupid decisions that aren't public yet and won't be until the journalists start deep diving all this.
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Jun 28, 2017 23:11
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MinorInconvenience posted:If CIG were a real, healthy and normal company, collateral for a loan like this would likely only be the company's cash and accounts receivables (like a standard revolver loan). The company's PP&E would ordinarily not be security for such a loan. MoMA is kinda sorta wrong. Yeah, and you wouldn't go through Coutts. I wonder if they're leveraged on normal over the counter loans, and had to go this weird escrow route. I can't see any point in attempting to offshore this, although it might be attractive to someone looking to dump some money. Private banking sidesteps some of the rules and opens up 'avenues'. That alone is _odd_.
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Jun 28, 2017 23:13
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I have a friend that once went off the deep end , he became a serious alcoholic and gamblor I was with him at the casino and watched him put $1000 down on roulette , And lose it instantly He then stumbled to the atm and tried to withdraw another 1k , he kept mumbling about how he can make it all back he just needed another grand Cig is basically my drunk as gently caress gambling addicted friend Citizens I just need another 100 million and i can win your hearts I promise , oh where did the first 150 million go ? It doesn't matter this is the here and now ... focus. I need that money to make more money you see. Ok just give me $500 I'll pay you back as soon as I win
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Jun 28, 2017 23:13
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it turns out Coutts CEO is a wing commander fan
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Jun 28, 2017 23:14
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AP posted:I don't think you can estimate their remaining cash with any accuracy as I'm sure they've wasted shitloads on stupid decisions that aren't public yet and won't be until the journalists start deep diving all this. Maybe they have made a killing in the Forex markets and they'll soon become a full-fledged hedge fund. Have you considered that possibility?
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Jun 28, 2017 23:15
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trucutru posted:Maybe they have made a killing in the Forex markets and they'll soon become a full-fledged hedge fund. Have you considered that possibility? You know anything is possible. The sky's the limit with Chris Roberts at the helm But really the thing that should be upsetting to the citizens is: The original pitch was give me your money and I will build the game of your dreams. With full disclosure and accounting to YOU the backers Now it's we will give you the game we decided to make , When we feel like it, we may also use your money for anything we please , Also gently caress you there is no transparency and no full disclosure because we said so :cig:
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Jun 28, 2017 23:19
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Colostomy Bag posted:you could care less. 
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Jun 28, 2017 23:20
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Hav posted:
It's why I suspect there might be other collateral involved here, like someone's personal assets via a guarantee that we can't see.
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Jun 28, 2017 23:29
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Sappo569 posted:You know anything is possible. The sky's the limit with Chris Roberts at the helm This is a pretty amusing and understated point. Given that most big publishers are publicly traded companies, they all have far more open financials than CIG who promised unparalleled transparency.
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Jun 28, 2017 23:40
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Snazzy Frocks posted:it turns out Coutts CEO is a wing commander fan So… 1. Get a refund, citizen. 2. Sell, sell, sell, Coutts shareholders.
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Jun 28, 2017 23:42
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