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Really if you don't stop reading a Spell for Chameleon at the rape trial you've read too far.
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Jun 29, 2017 18:14
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IMHO Vampire gets creepy when the writers lose sight of the fact that Vampires are metaphors for sexual or personal violation via erotic cannibalism and start writing them as actual sexual predators. There's some gray area there but I don't trust NuWhiteWolf to dance that line with any grace.
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Jun 29, 2017 18:14
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Mors Rattus posted:What, not the literal menstruation metaphor in the form of a character that is either beautiful but stupid or intelligent but ugly? unseenlibrarian posted:Really if you don't stop reading a Spell for Chameleon at the rape trial you've read too far.
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Jun 29, 2017 18:20
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Yawgmoth posted:Contradiction in terms a bit, don't you think? But no that didn't stink as hard to me because I could at least play dumb and pretend it wasn't exactly that. When the book itself calls out what it is and makes it a person...
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Jun 29, 2017 18:27
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It literally specifies that her changes in appearance and intelligence are tied to her Menstrual cycle, man. Also the Wikipedia article conveniently omits both that fact and the rape trial.
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Jun 29, 2017 19:00
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So wait do periods make girls ugly and smart or beautiful and stupid?
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Jun 29, 2017 20:12
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Enola Gay-For-Pay posted:So wait do periods make girls ugly and smart or beautiful and stupid? The thing about Anthony is, while I'm not gonna call for the guy to be banned or shame someone who enjoyed Xanth as a kid or whatever, I have to wonder about him considering how often he's returned to this well. If it had been like one novel it would be like, "Well, OK. Literature, man." But it's this all-pervading theme.
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Jun 29, 2017 20:24
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Enola Gay-For-Pay posted:So wait do periods make girls ugly and smart or beautiful and stupid? Either way you look at it you're making a fairly disgusting values judgement. Though I think it's ugly and smart, The wiki is understandably vague about a 40 year old book.
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Jun 29, 2017 20:49
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Vampires-as-metaphor for rape and molestation already meant I wouldn't play Masquerade or Requiem. That's a me thing, and I don't begrudge anybody who enjoyed playing them, especially because everybody I know who played handwaved feeding scenes. But now that it's not subtext, it's actual real over-the-top text? Oh hell no.
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Jun 29, 2017 21:16
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I mean there's a ton of other things a bunch of powerful, often aristocratic parasites could be metaphors for, too.
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Jun 29, 2017 21:18
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Yeah, I was definitely always more interested in Vampires as the Bourgeoisie. Though now I exclusively run Mage, so have Seers for that instead.
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Jun 29, 2017 21:21
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I saw someone on Twitter saying that Werewolf brought the Nazis back/is about Nazis now. Is there anything to that? Is there even a W:tA 5e in the works, or did W10 undo the Revised take of "Garou have purged the Nazis from their ranks and are ashamed/disgusted by the whole thing as a entire race" somehow?
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Jun 29, 2017 21:53
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Last time they were asked about Werewolf they talked about bringing back "the neo-fascist ecoterrorist" part of them.
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Jun 29, 2017 22:07
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Making werewolves the bad guys of late 90s action movies is good.
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Jun 29, 2017 22:11
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Since OWOD werewolf was a parable about rigidly reinforced blood purity being the only way to save the world, I'm not sure what we mean by Nazi here?
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Jun 29, 2017 22:15
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The Get of Fenris were actual, literal, nazis for large swaths of first and second edition. Their 3rd edition book was 50% "For fucks sake we're not nazi's anymore" and 50% "We're sorta just overbearing Minnesotan parents that want to see our kids live up to their potential." Also the over-emphasis on blood purity was sorta the downfall of the Garou nation.
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Jun 29, 2017 22:36
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Mors Rattus posted:Last time they were asked about Werewolf they talked about bringing back "the neo-fascist ecoterrorist" part of them. No temptation to stop my WW boycott, then.  Kurieg posted:Their 3rd edition book was 50% "For fucks sake we're not nazi's anymore" and 50% "We're sorta just overbearing Minnesotan parents that want to see our kids live up to their potential." Kurieg posted:Also the over-emphasis on blood purity was sorta the downfall of the Garou nation.
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Jun 29, 2017 23:06
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Kurieg posted:It literally specifies that her changes in appearance and intelligence are tied to her Menstrual cycle, man.
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Jun 29, 2017 23:18
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counterspin posted:Since OWOD werewolf was a parable about rigidly reinforced blood purity being the only way to save the world, I'm not sure what we mean by Nazi here? It really depends what section of which edition you're reading. Like many oWoD things, it is both that and its complete opposite depending on who has the word processor. And then sometimes there'd be the person who'd have it be both at once because the gameline was Apocalypse and everything was going to poo poo at once so why not.
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Jun 29, 2017 23:56
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Had an elder NPC that I ran who could only feed from the unbaptized, which back when he was Embraced was just infants or children. He got around it for the most part by 1) happily feeding from his Kindred foes since he was Embraced to help fight the Sabbat and 2) me not bringing up constantly.Nessus posted:In principle, a Ventrue neonate who found out that they could only feed on children would be a good-rear end run of personal horror. In practice, the character would either be a cartoon villain or would be presented as a Noble Pedophile a la Piers Anthony or something. The first sort of blood that you feed on after the Becoming is finished - the Revised clanbook says that it's once the fledgling has some control over it's faculties/isn't near constant hunger frenzy, when its sire takes it out and about for a feeding walkabout. And, yes, keeping yourself constantly on the fringe of frenzying is described as an effective method for getting around this. It is, however, not an effective solution in anything but the short term. Probably where they got the mechanics for switching your feeding types in V20. Nessus posted:I just hope once in a while there's a Ventrue who ends up frenzying and having to be put down because their blood requirement is something impossible to get even if you're rich and powerful. Same clanbook had that happen to an Elder during the destruction of Carthage I think, or something similar. Basically he ended up killing off his food source and fell in to torpor. Woke up several centuries later when the area had been resettled and found he could feed on the people there now. Kurieg posted:The Get of Fenris were actual, literal, nazis for large swaths of first and second edition. The Book of Auspices had the Ahroun chapter narrated by a -FURIOUS- Get Ahroun that got famous for going around killing off the Nazi Get and would beat the poo poo out of Ahroun's that got too big for their britches. Which, I think, was a callback to one of the comics. citybeatnik fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Jun 30, 2017 |
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Jun 29, 2017 23:59
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Feeding on the Unbaptized almost feels like it'd be cheating nowadays, at least in the USA. I mean there's a lot of catholics but that's like "Women" as opposed to "Redhaired women".
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Jun 30, 2017 02:19
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Speaking historically, it still wouldn't doom you to babies - you'd just be feeding on heathens or playing dice on any random peasant. Like most would probably be baptized but far from all, there was a relatively sizable minority of unbaptized people just due to interdicts and priest shortages.
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Jun 30, 2017 02:25
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Mors Rattus posted:Speaking historically, it still wouldn't doom you to babies - you'd just be feeding on heathens or playing dice on any random peasant. Like most would probably be baptized but far from all, there was a relatively sizable minority of unbaptized people just due to interdicts and priest shortages. Which, being a Ventrue, you'd be the kind of person with the means to follow around.
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Jun 30, 2017 02:31
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I should specify that I meant "unbaptized children and infants". Made the character specifically to gently caress with the sort of person that would take the Feeding Restriction flaw for the online game I developed.
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Jun 30, 2017 02:36
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citybeatnik posted:The Book of Auspices had the Ahroun chapter narrated by a -FURIOUS- Get Ahroun that got famous for going around killing off the Nazi Get and would beat the poo poo out of Ahroun's that got too big for their britches. Which, I think, was a callback to one of the comics. TB:Get Rev has a sentence to the effect of "Look, if you find one of the nazi get. please, let us know. So we can kill them and get back to the actual business of saving the loving world."
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Jun 30, 2017 04:16
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Kurieg posted:Their 3rd edition book was 50% "For fucks sake we're not nazi's anymore" and 50% "We're sorta just overbearing Minnesotan parents that want to see our kids live up to their potential." They are a tribe of stereotypical football parents in revised.
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Jun 30, 2017 04:27
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:They are a tribe of stereotypical football parents in revised. Overbearing Minnesotan Parents, like i said.
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Jun 30, 2017 04:40
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citybeatnik posted:The first sort of blood that you feed on after the Becoming is finished - the Revised clanbook says that it's once the fledgling has some control over it's faculties/isn't near constant hunger frenzy, when its sire takes it out and about for a feeding walkabout. It's been a long time since I've read CB: Ventrue, but I was thinking that it wasn't so much the first blood a Ventrue fledgling drinks of their own volition as it was that, very early in their unlife, they taste something that just resonates with them, somehow- it's not a deficiency, to their minds, so much as it is that there's a particular sort of person whose blood is perfectly aligned with that Ventrue's palate and to consume anything else is as disgusting a thought as drinking liquid poo poo. Once they find their brand, they're locked in and not only is that the only blood they can drink, it's the only blood they'd ever want to drink.
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Jun 30, 2017 04:49
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Pope Guilty posted:It's been a long time since I've read CB: Ventrue, but I was thinking that it wasn't so much the first blood a Ventrue fledgling drinks of their own volition as it was that, very early in their unlife, they taste something that just resonates with them, somehow- it's not a deficiency, to their minds, so much as it is that there's a particular sort of person whose blood is perfectly aligned with that Ventrue's palate and to consume anything else is as disgusting a thought as drinking liquid poo poo. Once they find their brand, they're locked in and not only is that the only blood they can drink, it's the only blood they'd ever want to drink. You're correct, and that's what i was hamfistedly trying to get at. The "walkabout" is the sire following along with them while the childer hunts down that taste.
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Jun 30, 2017 04:55
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Mendrian posted:IMHO Vampire gets creepy when the writers lose sight of the fact that Vampires are metaphors for sexual or personal violation via erotic cannibalism and start writing them as actual sexual predators. There's some gray area there but I don't trust NuWhiteWolf to dance that line with any grace. JohnnyCanuck posted:Vampires-as-metaphor for rape and molestation already meant I wouldn't play Masquerade or Requiem. That's a me thing, and I don't begrudge anybody who enjoyed playing them, especially because everybody I know who played handwaved feeding scenes. I thought Requiem handled this really nicely. Sure, the Daeva may get up to some freaky stuff. And the Ventrue might mind control you into doing something horrible. But they actually handle the issue with a bit of tact and point out (in character in some books) how utterly horrible the characters realize they are and how it fucks them up in the head. One supplement mentioned that even elders secretly feel like poo poo stains for doing the things they do unless they're a hair away from going draugr. The problems and guilt that comes with having to feed on people is probably one of the bigger factors in why most requiem vampires end up so messed up in the long run. Sometimes they self-sabotage without even realizing it. Of course, even the Daeva could approach things without going on rape sprees. This new take on the OWoD is uh...Yeah. Where the gently caress did they even get that idea? Archonex fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Jun 30, 2017 |
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Jun 30, 2017 05:24
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cptn_dr posted:Yeah, I was definitely always more interested in Vampires as the Bourgeoisie. I've been working on a one-shot for convention play where the characters are all volunteer staff with knowledge of the supernatural at a local feminist organization, who patrol the streets to protect women from vampires. I've written one character as a Marxist Feminist who holds that vampires are the ultimate expression of capitalism because they live as parasites on the well-being of women-as-a-class-in-the-Marxist-sense. Women being, in her eyes, especially vulnerable to vampire attacks because of how society marginalizes their voices and robs them of power. The only way to really solve the problem of vampire predation would be the violent restructuring of the current state of affairs into a classless society.
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Jun 30, 2017 10:12
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Since we're chiming in about Vampire in general, my favorite thing about it was always Vampires are parasites in more ways than one. Literal, blood suckers, yes but they also use human beings as pawns to do their work for them, draining them away from society. The more vampires/the longer they inhabit a area, the more the whole social structure begins to decay and stagnate. Things are withered and maybe that contributes to more hedonistic behavior by people in order to feel alive again. Not sure I'm conveying my point clearly but hopefully I am! It's definitely a vibe I picked up while playing Bloodlines and reading some old Masquerade books. "This town used to be fun, not anymore. Santa Monica is dead, man."
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Jun 30, 2017 16:09
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crime fighting hog posted:Since we're chiming in about Vampire in general, my favorite thing about it was always Vampires are parasites in more ways than one. Literal, blood suckers, yes but they also use human beings as pawns to do their work for them, draining them away from society. The more vampires/the longer they inhabit a area, the more the whole social structure begins to decay and stagnate. Things are withered and maybe that contributes to more hedonistic behavior by people in order to feel alive again. They also (at least in Masquerade) inevitably make things worse through sect politics and the Jyhad. Sabbat cities like, say, Baltimore or Mexico City become even more violent and run down because your average low-level shovelhead has low Humanity and no qualms about indulging in extreme violence.
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Jun 30, 2017 16:25
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Requiem explicitly says that vampires are essentially corruptive. They corrupt everything they touch, parasitically drawing the life and joy out of it over time. When vampires are around, poo poo goes to hell just because vampires make that happen to organizations and places they get involved in. Not really because of any magic, so much as the natural behaviors of self-preservation and feeding tend to make it happen.
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Jun 30, 2017 16:27
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Mors Rattus posted:Requiem explicitly says that vampires are essentially corruptive. They corrupt everything they touch, parasitically drawing the life and joy out of it over time. When vampires are around, poo poo goes to hell just because vampires make that happen to organizations and places they get involved in. Not really because of any magic, so much as the natural behaviors of self-preservation and feeding tend to make it happen. "Enter freely and leave some of the happiness you bring!"
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Jun 30, 2017 16:59
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Blockhouse posted:the thing that really galls me even as someone with about as much attachment to VTM and the oWoD at large as I have to a spider that might be crawling around in my bathtub at five in the morning is the insane insistence on bringing up VTM's legacy like it's a justification for everything they're doing and a reassurance that they're totally right all the time This is one of the many things that piss me off about how they're handling it as well (and i've yoinked the captain america comment to quote elsewhere), Swedracula's sole involvement was 7 months working on a failed WoD MMO. And no one else at White Wolf has any history or involvment. They've hired Hite but I can only assume he's still getting up to speed, because he's never released anything anywhere near as poo poo and badly written as that playtest. Or has any involvement in the responses, because he deals with customers/consumers way, way better than WW are.
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Jun 30, 2017 17:06
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PST posted:This is one of the many things that piss me off about how they're handling it as well (and i've yoinked the captain america comment to quote elsewhere), Swedracula's sole involvement was 7 months working on a failed WoD MMO. And no one else at White Wolf has any history or involvment. They've hired Hite but I can only assume he's still getting up to speed, because he's never released anything anywhere near as poo poo and badly written as that playtest. Or has any involvement in the responses, because he deals with customers/consumers way, way better than WW are. I can only assume that Kenneth Hite is only on board as a hired gun to hammer out some game rules and then grab his check and move on. I have liked his stuff in general historically, and was excited about him being on this project. Can't win them all, I guess. 
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Jun 30, 2017 17:16
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Kavak posted:Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh. I'm pretty sure his boss, Tobias Sjogren, is not terribly concerned. But you want to let him know that you are, his e-mail, once again, is Tobias dot Sjorgren at white-wolf dot com. Martin Ericsson's e-mail may follow the same pattern. If it needs to be said, try not to threaten, insult, or attack. Well. You can probably threaten a boycott, but you hopefully know what I mean. Polite concern is generally more productive than vulgar diatribes.
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Jun 30, 2017 17:33
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Roark posted:They also (at least in Masquerade) inevitably make things worse through sect politics and the Jyhad. Sabbat cities like, say, Baltimore or Mexico City become even more violent and run down because your average low-level shovelhead has low Humanity and no qualms about indulging in extreme violence. Setting up effective reform measures and firing/jailing corrupt officials is described as a scorched earth policy when the Camarilla is about to lose a city to the Sabbat. It's a highly effective one but leaves the city basically a no man's land until you can resume the cycle of bribery and blackmail.
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Jun 30, 2017 17:46
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citybeatnik posted:Setting up effective reform measures and firing/jailing corrupt officials is described as a scorched earth policy when the Camarilla is about to lose a city to the Sabbat. It's a highly effective one but leaves the city basically a no man's land until you can resume the cycle of bribery and blackmail. Yea I loved how massive sweeping and lasting reform was basically the Camarilla's nuclear option. It totally fits because obviously they benefit from a corrupt city but just the image of some elder vampire paying for ads about how one of his proxies has been taking money from one of his other proxies to help yet another of his proxies profit under the table is pretty hilarious. "Senator Davis has been working with United Chemical to sell local land rights to their shell company so they can expand operations without any oversight!" "How do you know?" "I'm paying off Davis and am on the board of United Chemical!"
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