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Bob le Moche posted:... I assumed when people say there are no elections in Venezuela they are in fact aware of the 2013 presidential election and the 2015 parliementary, and I don't need to point out that they happened. No, they say there are no elections in Venezuela because the government cancelled two electoral processes last year for absolutely no reason. That's why they say there are no elections in Venezuela. Let me repeat: Venezuelans should have gone to the polls twice last year for two different elections, and neither one happened because the government decided it did not want those elections to happen. To put it more accurately: there are elections in Venezuela only when the government wants elections, not when the Constitution says there must be elections. That's worse. The very forces that you are describing as bad and undesirable are in control in Venezuela today. That's why people have been out protesting the government for 90 consecutive days now. You're arguing in defense of the very things that you claim to be against. If you haven't done so already, read Orwell's "Animal Farm".
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Jun 29, 2017 19:55
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Bob le Moche posted:I don't really expect to change the minds of any of you folks who are being super vocal against me in this thread. All I hope is that once things eventually play out the way that I laid out above, and when most of you suddenly go completely silent about the situation, some people will question why they didn't see all this coming and hopefully will decide to think more critically and to try to stop this all from happening again in the future. By your own logic here, we could just say the PSUV intended the country of Venezuela to end up in the situation we see today. We could say Chavez himself guided a kleptocratic government in defrauding the entire nation, disguising his motives by "buying off" the poor with unsustainable programs built to fail. This would resolve the debate in just the same way you have justified your own conclusions. That does not make either argument correct.
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Jun 29, 2017 20:04
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Chuck Boone posted:To put it more accurately: there are elections in Venezuela only when the government wants elections, not when the Constitution says there must be elections. That's worse. I take it that he doesn't see this as a bad thing because he views it as protecting the country and its institutions against the imperialists. Unfortunately, good intentions don't work in practice; systems do. And this basically amounts to axing the safety rails built into the system to protect the populace against a corrupt ruling class. Even if you thought that Maduro was capable and good-intentioned, this should be incredibly worrisome.
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Jun 29, 2017 20:17
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madeintaipei posted:We could say Chavez himself guided a kleptocratic government in defrauding the entire nation, disguising his motives by "buying off" the poor with unsustainable programs built to fail. That's uh, exactly what happened. The socialist, anti-imperialist angle was intended to defend the government from scrutiny, Chavez was never about ideology and all he wanted was to seize power and stay there. I mean, do you seriously think there's anybody in the government right now that is not massively rich? The president himself, through his wife Cilia Flores, has something like 30 family members in different positions of the government. You could argue that at least Chavez wasn't like that and it all started with Maduro (Despite Chavez' family, particularly his daughters, being Saudi princess rich), fine, I'll be willing to make that concession. It still means there is no ideological argument for supporting the Venezuelan government as it currently stands, to do so would mean to ignore a huge part of the situation like what Bob is doing, he's raving about this invisible enemy when a clear and present one has been destroying the country for 5 years straight. ryde posted:I take it that he doesn't see this as a bad thing because he views it as protecting the country and its institutions against the imperialists. Unfortunately, good intentions don't work in practice; systems do. And this basically amounts to axing the safety rails built into the system to protect the populace against a corrupt ruling class. Even if you thought that Maduro was capable and good-intentioned, this should be incredibly worrisome. He's clearly not that stupid. He knows where the polls currently stand, that's why he wouldn't risk an election, no matter how rigged. There's no way he can win without cheating. fnox fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Jun 29, 2017 |
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Jun 29, 2017 20:18
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Its hard to know what Chavez's actual intentions were, but its entirely possible to guide the country into a kleptocracy with good intentions, and even some combination of good intentions and competence. I always get a bit squeamish when people frame it this way, because it feels like they're saying "We can try it again and next time it will work because we'll elect good people." Except that you can't guarantee that, which is why you want systems at the forefront and not people or parties. Its why I criticized the expropriation tactics of the government; not because I'm against socialism or worker ownership, but seemingly the method by which those property seizures happen is a recipe for fast-tracking your political class to a kleptocratic class.
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Jun 29, 2017 20:24
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Bob le Moche posted:I know this very well and what I'm talking about is the events that led to this situation. I assumed other people knew this already and I didn't have to explain it, just like I assumed when people say there are no elections in Venezuela they are in fact aware of the 2013 presidential election and the 2015 parliementary, and I don't need to point out that they happened. Please continue about the CNE canceling the recall referendum against Maduro because ?????, and please tell us about the constituent assembly where a few hundred random people chosen by Maduro get to choose the next constitution instead of the people, as mandated by the current constitution. Please tell us about the regional elections scheduled for last year that were postponed for ????? reasons and may happen in December this year, but who knows. Please tell us about the massive voting irregularities — which may be true, but if so, why did the CNE never move forward on a new election or on normalizing the Amazonas deputies? Please, do tell. At least you are more engaging than Borneo Jimmy, who would never respond to a single point (besides masses of mostly-unrelated copy and paste text) and who thought things were fine and dandy in Venezuela and everyone here was lying. E: Unfortunately, you are right in that if the opposition was in power, things would still be a mess in Venezuela. However, at least then there is a possibility for change when the ruling power is not so deeply entrenched. PSUV will fight to the death to keep their corrupt paws on the oil money. If there is another election in Venezuela, which seems highly doubtful if the new constitution is allowed to pass, the new rulers would (a) at least be supported by popular vote, and (b) not be so comfortable in their seats. Also you can probably go to the Middle East thread to see about people who were against Morsi, and how they felt before/after Sisi took power in the coup. It is hopefully not a roadmap for Venezuela. Saladman fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Jun 29, 2017 |
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Jun 29, 2017 20:27
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fnox posted:That's uh, exactly what happened. The socialist, anti-imperialist angle was intended to defend the government from scrutiny, Chavez was never about ideology and all he wanted was to seize power and stay there. I mean, do you seriously think there's anybody in the government right now that is not massively rich? The president himself, through his wife Cilia Flores, has something like 30 family members in different positions of the government. Cease fire! I understand all that, truly. My comment was rhetorical, aimed at bringing Bob around a little. You bring up good points! I cannot say it is enjoyable reading about what has been happening to the Venezuelan peoples in here, but I appreciate that you all are posting! Even our local news (US, Tampa Bay) parroted the PSUV line after the helicopter incident, I don't think many people here realize what is actually going on.
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Jun 29, 2017 20:30
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God drat it, see 50 new posts and think the dumbass's helicopter adventure actually caused something to snap and it's just everyone arguing with some idiot who got word that Venezuela went to hell and decided to chime in with his extensive knowledge of the situation consisting of "Chavez good, US bad" to Venezuelans.
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Jun 29, 2017 20:45
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Chuck Boone posted:If you haven't done so already, read Orwell's "Animal Farm". "I used to think socialism was good until I read the book with talking animals written by a guy who gave a list of suspected communist to the UK government" You say we are on the same side, but I don't know what you believe a revolution looks like or how it goes down. I don't think you understand the violence of the reaction revolutions face, the complete breakdown of society that happens, and the authoritarian measures that become necessary for every side involved. Socialists will only ever be allowed to try to change things within the existing framework so much until capitalist opposition escalates and things break out in open war. When this becomes the case, the very legitimacy of state institutions are up in the air. I mentioned the separation of powers thing because I wanted to point out that the judiciary was acting within its powers back then when it ruled against the National Assembly, and that I wish the same thing was imaginable in other countries. Maybe you don't care because you believe that things were already too compromised and that the process was already illegitimate at that point. That's understandable, but if that's what you think then it means you also agree that things necessarily play by different rules now and that the process cannot be expected to continue without being hampered. I didn't want to get too bogged down in details about the specific situation in Venezuela because those details really don't have much weight on my own position, which is that non-Venezuelans should study and expose their own governments' stake in the situation and oppose intervention. But since we got to this point I will say one more thing: I believe Maduro is on extremely precarious ground, he has no real support from any foreign powers (the idea that Cuba has any influence is kind of a joke), certainly no support from the private sector or any other ruling class faction in Venezuela, and even other leftist factions oppose him. It's very expensive and takes a lot of effort to sustain an "authoritarian" state. The only support that Maduro still has at this point is from groups and social organizations that are loyal to the Bolivarian revolution and see him as its defender, and as the last line of defense against the dictatorship of the right-wing. It doesn't matter whether that's true or not, if Maduro wants to stay in power, if he wants to hold back the opposition, those are the only groups he can count on, and the only thing that he can do is continue to try to empower and appease them. At this point though, I think it's very unlikely that this will succeed. Maduro is losing support and will probably be defeated, and when that happens, unfortunately, the balance of power will probably be such that things will keep getting worse for those among the Venezuelan people who are the most vulnerable. madeintaipei posted:By your own logic here, we could just say the PSUV intended the country of Venezuela to end up in the situation we see today. We could say Chavez himself guided a kleptocratic government in defrauding the entire nation, disguising his motives by "buying off" the poor with unsustainable programs built to fail. This would resolve the debate in just the same way you have justified your own conclusions. That does not make either argument correct. Even if this is true, and for the sake of argument I am always willing to concede the most cynical and pessimistic possibility, even if this is true, the situation where Chavez was an opportunist who got power for himself by "buying off" the poor is still one where the most poor and disempowered were able to exert more power and have more influence on the actions of their government than they ever could under a capitalist regime. I think the people should have power over their government, and the government should be forced to seek to appease the people. This will always be preferable to me over hypocritical paternalism and arguments about needing to protect the masses from themselves.
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Jun 29, 2017 20:47
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Bob le Moche posted:"I used to think socialism was good until I read the book with talking animals written by a guy who gave a list of suspected communist to the UK government" The whole point of Animal Farm is that assholes and tin pot dictators wrap themselves in socialism to distract The People while they loot the place and become the exact thing they claimed they were going to replace. See: Venezuela
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Jun 29, 2017 20:50
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Xae posted:The whole point of Animal Farm is that assholes and tin pot dictators wrap themselves in socialism to distract The People while they loot the place and become the exact thing they claimed they were going to replace. Yes I have read the book thank you. I've also read The Foutainhead and The Gulag Archipelago, and yet here I am.
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Jun 29, 2017 20:55
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2013: the elections are fair they reflect the will of the people and our completely fair and free electoral process 2015: actually ignoring the vote of the people is good folks
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Jun 29, 2017 20:58
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Bob le Moche posted:"I used to think socialism was good until I read the book with talking animals written by a guy who gave a list of suspected communist to the UK government" No one who posts in this thread, except MyIGF (who seems honestly like a rather unstable individual), is advocating for a revolution / coup. Everyone just wants the government to follow the constitution, e.g. allowing a recall, allowing elections on a normal schedule, etc. Most protestors want that too, which you can see evidence for in that it's an INCREDIBLY non-violent protest movement, with nearly all (though not 100%!) of violence being committed on the government's side. Similar trends can be seen e.g. in Turkey, where many left-wing and centrist people protested against the military coup last July, even though it meant supporting Erdogan's dictatorial tendencies. Bob le Moche posted:I didn't want to get too bogged down in details about the specific situation in Venezuela because those details really don't have much weight on my own position, which is that non-Venezuelans should study and expose their own governments' stake in the situation and oppose intervention. But since we got to this point I will say one more thing: I believe Maduro is on extremely precarious ground, he has no real support from any foreign powers (the idea that Cuba has any influence is kind of a joke), certainly no support from the private sector or any other ruling class faction in Venezuela, and even other leftist factions oppose him. It's very expensive and takes a lot of effort to sustain an "authoritarian" state. The only support that Maduro still has at this point is from groups and social organizations that are loyal to the Bolivarian revolution and see him as its defender, and as the last line of defense against the dictatorship of the right-wing. It doesn't matter whether that's true or not, if Maduro wants to stay in power, if he wants to hold back the opposition, those are the only groups he can count on, and the only thing that he can do is continue to try to empower and appease them. At this point though, I think it's very unlikely that this will succeed. Maduro is losing support and will probably be defeated, and when that happens, unfortunately, the balance of power will probably be such that things will keep getting worse for those among the Venezuelan people who are the most vulnerable. Everything you've said here is probably accurate, including the last sentence. However, at least a change in leadership means things can potentially get better in the long run, whereas Maduro has no plan whatsoever to turn the government around. For instance, if you take money from subsidies and take away gasoline, electricity, water, etc. from poor people and use it to invest in roads, at least you have some roads. Obviously this is a terrible way to do it (but something a right wing government would likely do, not that the Venezuelan opposition is right wing—it's full spectrum). I think you also massively over-estimate how much impact foreign governments have on Venezuela's domestic policy. Still, I'll bring it up at my next meeting with my representatives here in central Europe 
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Jun 29, 2017 20:59
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we need to listen to the will of the Venezuelan people in country except for this one major instance when they expressed an opinion I don't like
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Jun 29, 2017 21:01
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Zikan posted:2013: the elections are fair they reflect the will of the people and our completely fair and free electoral process 2013: the elections are a sham and PSUV controls the outcome 2015: actually the elections are fair they reflect the will of the people and our completely fair and free electoral process Very nice of Maduro to relinquish the control he had over the electoral process Zikan posted:we need to listen to the will of the Venezuelan people in country except for this one major instance when they expressed an opinion I don't like No we need to listen to the will of the Venezuelan people which is why we should hope for money and foreign power to be kept out of the equation as much as possible
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Jun 29, 2017 21:03
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Bob le Moche posted:I didn't want to get too bogged down in details about the specific situation in Venezuela because those details really don't have much weight on my own position, I wish you'd said this earlier. If you're going to insist in giving your (profoundly misinformed) opinions about a subject that by admission you don't care to learn about, then we have nothing to talk about.
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Jun 29, 2017 21:03
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The only Animal Farm he knows of is the Fisher-Price version. Also, we're not "non-Venezuelans". I lived in Venezuela for my entire life until last year, where I decided I had enough of the government stripping away my future, defunding the university I was studying in delaying my undergraduate programme by more than a year, diluting my paycheck to pennies, denying me foodstuffs that would be guaranteed in any country in the world and that were once produced locally like milk, chicken, eggs or coffee. They denied my father and grandfather their heart medicine and I started to have to smuggle it into the country so the fuckers at customs wouldn't steal it.
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Jun 29, 2017 21:07
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Bob le Moche posted:2013: the elections are a sham and PSUV controls the outcome glad you agree the elections were free and fair in both instance and thus the government should respect what the democratically elected National Assembly passes
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Jun 29, 2017 21:08
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fnox, have you considered that you might be a member of the middle or upper classes and thus your difficulties aren't worthy of consideration?
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Jun 29, 2017 21:09
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ryde posted:fnox, have you considered that you might be a member of the middle or upper classes and thus your difficulties aren't worthy of consideration? No, I haven't, because I had to sell and abandon loving everything I had and save for a year to make it out, and still I landed in Europe with only my clothes and a couple hundred dollars to my name. The only reason I even made it anywhere was because I got a lot of help from complete strangers, including Goons. Have you ever considered you know jack poo poo about what Venezuela is like and how tortuously difficult life is over there? I still have my parents over there if you want a first hand account, I've been saving all year to get them out. What a great thing to say, "Oh have you ever considered you don't matter?", get the gently caress out. It's even worse for people with less than me, they just starve and die. fnox fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Jun 29, 2017 |
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Jun 29, 2017 21:15
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fnox posted:Also, we're not "non-Venezuelans". I lived in Venezuela for my entire life until last year, where I decided I had enough of the government stripping away my future, defunding the university I was studying in delaying my undergraduate programme by more than a year, diluting my paycheck to pennies, denying me foodstuffs that would be guaranteed in any country in the world and that were once produced locally like milk, chicken, eggs or coffee. They denied my father and grandfather their heart medicine and I started to have to smuggle it into the country so the fuckers at customs wouldn't steal it. No, no, wait: I demand to hear the opinion of a Venezuelan that matches my own, uninformed view of what's happening in the country! (Also, I think that ryder was being sarcastic  )
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Jun 29, 2017 21:19
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fnox posted:Have you ever considered you know jack poo poo about what Venezuela is like and how tortuously difficult life is over there? I still have my parents over there if you want a first hand account, I've been saving all year to get them out. I was being facetious and mocking the characterization of the opposition as a bunch of middle and upper class people (with the implication that their class means their concerns are not worth thinking about). Sorry that it came across wrong.
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Jun 29, 2017 21:23
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You guys need to be careful about the sarcasm when there's idiots in the thread saying that stuff unironically.
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Jun 29, 2017 21:25
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I really do appreciate you guys posting in spite of the morons-it's been an invaluable perspective on events that's hard to find anywhere else.
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Jun 29, 2017 21:26
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Acebuckeye13 posted:I really do appreciate you guys posting in spite of the morons-it's been an invaluable perspective on events that's hard to find anywhere else. His leftist shitposting is barely distinguishable from the background noise these days. The only difference is that he is dumb enough to do it in the Venezuela thread. I've lurked in the thread for a while and appreciated the perspective from people living in Venezuela. It helps cut through the massive amount of bullshit floating around on the Internet.
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Jun 29, 2017 22:15
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Chuck Boone posted:I wish you'd said this earlier. If you're going to insist in giving your (profoundly misinformed) opinions about a subject that by admission you don't care to learn about, then we have nothing to talk about. It really is a nice and concise way of saying that he'll simply project his preconceptions and prejudices on the entire situation and drat the facts. It's like debating moral philosophy with someone who believes all morality derives from God and the word of God.
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Jun 29, 2017 22:16
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Munin posted:It's like debating moral philosophy with someone who believes all morality derives from God and the word of God. I try to focus my concern on where I am actually able to make a difference, my own country and its foreign policy, instead of identifying with the interests of my local ruling class and backseat driving other countries where I have no influence. Are you against this because you would rather people like me support our governments intervening against Maduro in Venezuea and backing the opposition?
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Jun 29, 2017 22:28
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Bob le Moche posted:I try to focus my concern on where I am actually able to make a difference, my own country and its foreign policy, instead of identifying with the interests of my local ruling class and backseat driving other countries where I have no influence. Are you against this because you would rather people like me support our governments intervening against Maduro in Venezuea and backing the opposition? Well you're certainly making a difference in this thread! by being terrible
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Jun 29, 2017 22:33
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Today is the 90th day of consecutive protests against the Maduro regime. The opposition organized marches today across the country to the offices of the CNE (the elections body), since the elections for the Constituent Assembly are in one month. There have been 5 fatalities due to unrest yesterday, June 28. There have been no protest-related fatalities reported in the media so far today. Yesterday's fatalities were:
The total number of protest-related dead since the unrest began on April 1 is now 82. I think that my figure may by higher than the official tally by one or two now, but I'm not too sure. The big news today so far has been that the National Bolivarian Police arrested more than 20 students in El Rosal, Caracas. The students had all run into a bank to seek cover from the repression on the streets in the early afternoon. The police chased the students into the bank, robbed them of their personal belongings, and then arrested them all. In the image below you can see some of the arrested students waiting to be taken away: https://twitter.com/NTN24ve/status/880523770175213568 The students were then led into a white, unmarked van to be taken to who knows where. In the video below, the students are shouting the name of their university to the press as they're taken away in the hopes that they might be able to track down who they all are: https://twitter.com/JuanchiParra/status/880497190036279297 In the video below, the students are crammed into the van. As a thick cloud of tear gas engulfs the vehicle, the police officers begin to shut the doors: https://twitter.com/GabyGabyGG/status/880511838882025472 Elsewhere in the city, National Guard soldiers prevented a group of journalists from covering the march to the CNE on the Francisco Fajardo highway. In the video below, the journalists are engulfed in tear gas from a canister that has just been launched at them: https://twitter.com/GabyGabyGG/status/880494094400749569 In the video below, National Guard soldiers shove the journalists away from the highway: https://twitter.com/NDtitulares/status/880491998523863040 In another bit of news, the Supreme Court issued an order yesterday freezing all of the assets of attorney general Luisa Ortega Diaz and barring her from leaving the country. This follows weeks of public statements by the attorney general condemning the regime's brutal repression of the protests. The Public Ministry (which the attorney general heads) formally charged the former commander of the National Guard, General Antonio Jose Benavides Torres, with committing "serious and systematic human rights violations". Benavides Torres was the head of the National Guard until June 21, when he was shuffled into the Chief of the Capital District position. The Public Ministry summed up the crimes committed by National Guard soldiers under Benavides Torres' command in the following way: quote:... excessive use of force during the repression of protests, the use of non-authorized firearms, the improper use of equipment [Note: this could mean using shields to beat protesters, for example], the cruel treatment and torture of detained persons, as well as warrantless raids and damages to property, among others. Munin posted:It really is a nice and concise way of saying that he'll simply project his preconceptions and prejudices on the entire situation and drat the facts. Agreed. I mean, you'd think that a person wanting to affect some kind of positive change on an issue would at the very least try to become informed about the issue, but... EDIT: Here is a video of National Bolviarian Police officers splitting the loo--err, I mean, going over the evidence they confiscated from the students they arrested in El Rosal: https://twitter.com/hcapriles/status/880527542339256321 Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Jun 29, 2017 |
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Jun 29, 2017 22:33
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This country that I have family in is almost down to Syria level of human rights violations and here comes some idiot into the thread saying it isn't so bad and 80% of people are now middle or upper class, next sometime from there calls I will just tell them to cash in their CIA check so they can go buy something to stop their hunger.
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Jun 29, 2017 23:05
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The National Guard is extorting the families of the students they detained today in the videos Chuck posted earlier. They want them to pay from $500 to $1000 per each of them so they won't get thrown into jail. https://twitter.com/esteninf/status/880558608198410240 This is one of the aspects of the repression that is least talked about. The security forces take every chance to outright rob protesters, as Chuck said, or hold them for ransom. This is so common that it must be sanctioned by their superiors – since they don't get paid well enough (like everyone else in Venezuela) they're probably enticed by the prospect of making fast cash selling phones and the dollars (from the people they detain or kidnap, to be more accurate) in the black market.
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Jun 30, 2017 00:31
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Bob le Moche posted:I try to focus my concern on where I am actually able to make a difference, my own country and its foreign policy, instead of identifying with the interests of my local ruling class and backseat driving other countries where I have no influence. Are you against this because you would rather people like me support our governments intervening against Maduro in Venezuea and backing the opposition? Hmm this seems consistent with your absurd gringosplaning.
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Jun 30, 2017 00:45
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I, for one, am glad that the CIA counts with a dozen less cellphones.
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Jun 30, 2017 01:06
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What does CIA sponsorship even mean in the context of mass demonstrations throughout the country? You can hand out all the money and assistance you like, you can't make the people spontaneously organize, or turn out day after day when the cops are beating them, or firing tear gas at them, or shooting them.
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Jun 30, 2017 01:24
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The arrested students (there are 31 of them) are now in El Helicoide, which is the headquarters of the SEBIN, Venezuela's political police. I forgot to post this video from yesterday. It shows a pro-regime militia firing a pistol at protesters in Maracaibo, Zulia state. Note that as the shooter (in red) runs forward, he's surrounded by at least three police officers who do absolutely nothing: https://twitter.com/Javierito321/status/880229860538560517 There has also been another reported fatality today: a 19 year old named Alberto Figuera. He was shot in the head while protesting against the government in Maracay, Aragua state on Tuesday, and died from his injuries today. Maracay has seen quite a bit of unrest this week. This is a video recorded this evening showing National Guard soldiers firing tear gas directly into an apartment complex: https://twitter.com/YoPabloGarcia/status/880582092425506816 If you've been following the thread, you'll have noticed that the this isn't the first time that the National Guard has fired at homes. This is, of course, completely illegal according both to Venezuelan and international standards. There are people in those buildings (elderly, sick, children) who deliberately stay away from protests in order to not suffer the effects of the gas.
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Jun 30, 2017 01:26
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fnox posted:The only Animal Farm he knows of is the Fisher-Price version. remember its the CIAs fault.
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Jun 30, 2017 03:03
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Classic SAD/SOG tactic of hiding in the house right there, thanks for opening my eyes bob. Now I know only brainwashed bootlickers would have a problem with this government.
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Jun 30, 2017 04:29
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Yes I literally believe that every single person who opposes the government is directly taking orders from the CIA and that the Venezuelan national guard never uses violence against protesters. This is a completely accurate and believable characterization of my position that totally makes you look like a serious person who is generally correct about things.
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Jun 30, 2017 04:50
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Bob le Moche posted:Yes I literally believe that every single person who opposes the government is directly taking orders from the CIA and that the Venezuelan national guard never uses violence against protesters. This is a completely accurate and believable characterization of my position that totally makes you look like a serious person who is generally correct about things. Glad we cleared that up, then. Read the loving thread and learn something before you shitpost again.
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Jun 30, 2017 05:05
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Bob le Moche posted:Yes I literally believe that every single person who opposes the government is directly taking orders from the CIA and that the Venezuelan national guard never uses violence against protesters. This is a completely accurate and believable characterization of my position that totally makes you look like a serious person who is generally correct about things. Did see the post above citing people by name who have lost their lives in Venezuela over the last few days? ¿Por que no te callas?
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Jun 30, 2017 05:07
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