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Alchenar posted:It's legitimate for someone to complain that a game is badly designed and forces cheesy strategies while using a cheesy strategy that they have to in order be competitive. There's no hypocrisy there (although maybe a little more self-awareness would be good). Maybe I wasn't terribly clear but my point is that it's not legitimate to use this case as an example because neither 'cheesy' strategies are actually effective. All-elite-infantry and All-flier builds are both bad builds that lose to balanced ones. The game mechanically discourages both builds but neither player realises it. Instead the poster asks for army composition rules to make unbalanced builds forbidden... if those unbalanced builds defeat his chosen build. That the other player is an arsehole is probably true, as is some builds being annoying to play against even if they are ineffective, but that's not the title and the topic of the thread. The topic was the player's belief that dwarves can reliably defeat vampires with this one neat trick and CA MUST DO SOMETHING. That's just hilariously untrue. Fangz fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Jun 29, 2017 |
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Jun 29, 2017 15:23
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Erm all flyer builds do not lose to more balanced ones. For a while the top leaderboard guy would only run ~8 hawk riders + hidden waystalkers. I assume he only stopped because he got bored because I don't see him at #1 any more. I'd say it's still the best army comp if you want to win 99% of your games. You can only lose if the enemy guesses your strategy and counter picks perfectly, but that is applicable to any build. If you keep the waystalker on hold fire you will never find and kill him to start the 'no ground units' penalty. When you come across an idiot rear end army like that just disconnect and save yourself some time.
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Jun 29, 2017 15:38
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What would Vampires do to counter that? Just bring a shitload of bats sight unseen?
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Jun 29, 2017 15:39
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Varghiests should easily win an aerial fight.
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Jun 29, 2017 17:01
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:What would Vampires do to counter that? Just bring a shitload of bats sight unseen? Pretty much. Bats counter gyrocopters surprisingly well. I think it's because they have very high density as a unit so they have the entire bat troop hitting 4 big models.
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Jun 29, 2017 17:20
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reddit of course is pushing devs to adopt tabletop style force limits idiots
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Jun 30, 2017 01:02
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Talks for unit caps reminds me of the good ol' days of Loan Sword Ashigaru spam, and the eternity it took to implement unit caps in Shogun 2 
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Jun 30, 2017 01:18
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Tiler Kiwi posted:reddit of course is pushing devs to adopt tabletop style force limits that might actually be cool though
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Jun 30, 2017 01:46
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Can't speak for multiplayer, but I wish there was some kind of limit in single player because the game gets super boring when you snowball into fat stacks of cash and can crush every AI force with trivial ease using your all-elite super army. This series in general would be about 10x better if it focused harder on trying to get you into more balanced fights throughout the entire campaign, and something along these lines could help with that.
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Jun 30, 2017 01:56
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As long as it's not using the literal force structures of tabletop.
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Jun 30, 2017 01:56
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They just need to allow unlimited #s of low level core units but scale up cost per unit after 5 of the same unit for higher tier units. They did similar structures in previous titles' multiplayer. I don't think it should be in single player.
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Jun 30, 2017 02:26
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Tardcore posted:that might actually be cool though As. Someone unfamiliar with the tabletop game, could you please expand on this?
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Jun 30, 2017 02:45
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Basically, you're only allowed a certain number of units of a given class in your armies, so one HQ or Lord or whatever you want to call it, maybe two, like six generic foot troops like swordsmen and crossbows, three or so elites like demigryphs, so on. I don't remember the exact ratios, but that's the idea.
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Jun 30, 2017 04:06
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Got the game on Steam sale, started up an Empire campaign to learn the ropes and before I knew it it was 3a.m. One... more... turn... 
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Jun 30, 2017 04:13
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Vargs posted:Can't speak for multiplayer, but I wish there was some kind of limit in single player because the game gets super boring when you snowball into fat stacks of cash and can crush every AI force with trivial ease using your all-elite super army. This series in general would be about 10x better if it focused harder on trying to get you into more balanced fights throughout the entire campaign, and something along these lines could help with that. Have you considered not building full elite armies in your single player campaign?
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Jun 30, 2017 04:55
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Psycho Landlord posted:Basically, you're only allowed a certain number of units of a given class in your armies, so one HQ or Lord or whatever you want to call it, maybe two, like six generic foot troops like swordsmen and crossbows, three or so elites like demigryphs, so on. I don't remember the exact ratios, but that's the idea. Core had a minimum of 25%, not a maximum. Then up to 25% lords, 25% heroes, 50% special, 25% rare. This game doesn't have rare or special as categories so I doubt that'll ever happen. It'd be neat to have some kind of more interesting army building mechanic, though. In TW I've never liked how easy it is to have doomstacks late game, but also the early game fights that are often tensest, it sucks how those are often decided by stacks of basic dudes. For example I just finally completed a dwarf campaign, by the time I could build anything fancier than a cannon or longbeards Grimgor was wiped and Drakenhof was razed. I've got to march across the map for operation elf holocaust to use my higher tier units.
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Jun 30, 2017 05:04
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:Have you considered not building full elite armies in your single player campaign? Purposefully taking suboptimal choices in a strategy game kindof defeats the point. There really needs to be more limits or drawbacks to doomstacking. I think the optimal would be earlier access to high tech units but a mechanism that limits their availability greatly.
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Jun 30, 2017 05:14
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Expecting to be challenged by an ai who isn't massively cheating is funny and also years away
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Jun 30, 2017 05:18
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SickZip posted:Purposefully taking suboptimal choices in a strategy game kindof defeats the point. Elite doomstacks are already suboptimal. You are paying significantly higher upkeep for an army that the ai will purposefully avoid because it knows it can't win. Having a weaker army that can lure the ai to engage, and then winning through superior tactics, is the optimal way to play.
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Jun 30, 2017 05:22
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I always though Total War games would have much more strategic battles if you didn't get to specifically recruit your armies, you just stuck money in a bucket and mashed "recruit army" and you got a stack appropriate to the settlement and amount of money you spent.
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Jun 30, 2017 08:46
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Gort posted:I always though Total War games would have much more strategic battles if you didn't get to specifically recruit your armies, you just stuck money in a bucket and mashed "recruit army" and you got a stack appropriate to the settlement and amount of money you spent. If CA implemented this system and the AI recruited for me like it does for itself I'd never play a TW game again.
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Jun 30, 2017 08:50
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hmmm lets see what the AI gives me oh cool, 3 savage orcs and 12 savage orc arrer boys oh cool 3 spearmen and 8 pisoliers
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Jun 30, 2017 09:16
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Shogun 2 had unit limits in multiplayer and it was good. I'm still kinda weirded out that they put so little effort into mp since shogun 2.
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Jun 30, 2017 09:20
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hemale in pain posted:Shogun 2 had unit limits in multiplayer and it was good. I'm still kinda weirded out that they put so little effort into mp since shogun 2. AFAIK they didn't consider it to be enough of a return on investment. It was definitely cool and I think the co op elements would really suit warhammer, but I'd prefer rad single player way before anything else.
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Jun 30, 2017 10:25
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AttitudeAdjuster posted:If CA implemented this system and the AI recruited for me like it does for itself I'd never play a TW game again. You're just afraid of my brave new world of all-artillery armies
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Jun 30, 2017 10:52
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AttitudeAdjuster posted:If CA implemented this system and the AI recruited for me like it does for itself I'd never play a TW game again. If they did something like this it shouldn't be random. It should be determined based on the total size of a settlement (combined number of settlement levels say, with capital weighted higher) and what buildings have been built and then with a little screen to allow you to tweak it somewhat in the direction of your liking (kind of like CK1 where you could choose to divide up favor and privileges between the aristocracy, clergy and burghers in a province with each one increasing the portion of certain units while reducing the portion of others)
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Jun 30, 2017 11:04
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Gort posted:You're just afraid of my brave new world of all-artillery armies Specifically a brave new world filled with Stegadons firing lasers.
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Jun 30, 2017 11:24
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KPC_Mammon posted:Elite doomstacks are already suboptimal. You are paying significantly higher upkeep for an army that the ai will purposefully avoid because it knows it can't win. 1000% true in every Total War game ever made. Even just having multiple armies of weaker or mixed units is better than doom stacking from an optimization point of view. Optimal TW play always revolves around making GBS threads out basic units forever, and it's boring as poo poo. One of the best things about Warhammer is each starting dude having at least one of two cool units that you get to use from the start. Except Azhag of course, because ah ha ha Azhag.
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Jun 30, 2017 11:47
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Yeah the elite units that the heroes start with was a great addition. Franz' Reiksguard and Gelt's Greatswords are the real regiments of renown.
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Jun 30, 2017 11:56
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You could do it as packages. Town x is set up for cavalry so you buy a package of knights and also get their associated plebs. Would help the army comp of the ai because you maybe couldn't get artillery without also getting other stuff. Works thematically in the main TW games because end game all elite armies barely existed. Gives a mechanical reason to see weaker units late game. It's a lot more interesting to be made to work with weaker units because they come with the package too.
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Jun 30, 2017 12:22
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Won't you just buy your cav and disband the pointless plebs?
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Jun 30, 2017 12:28
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its a lot of effort to reduce player agency and idk why you think itd be fun at all e: and I still use weaker units all the time, late game, because its nice to be able to have a home defense army that doesn't eat a bunch of cash doing nothing most of the time, among other reasons
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Jun 30, 2017 12:42
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Fangz posted:Won't you just buy your cav and disband the pointless plebs? Maybe you pay upkeep on the package rather than the unit so that doesn't help
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Jun 30, 2017 13:04
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There's a new ritual clue today. The prize this time is a choose your own adventure thing. I've died several times but if there's any way to win I haven't found it.
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Jun 30, 2017 13:50
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Apparently getting to the cave in the new text adventure 100% confirms skaven.
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Jun 30, 2017 14:24
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ad090 posted:Apparently getting to the cave in the new text adventure 100% confirms skaven. Oh very much so. If you don't bring a torch you fall and die while being swarmed by endless furry things. Bringing a torch means you get ganked by a Gutter Runner instead. Also descriptions of warpstone bullets and war machines and various other things. Not that Skaven were ever in doubt. edit: Apparently the "good" ending is you stumbling across a room full of Skaven and managing to shout S-! before getting knifed in the back several dozen times. madmac fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Jun 30, 2017 |
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Jun 30, 2017 14:33
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So I'm thinking we can expect Dark Elf roster reveal and Skaven announcement this month? Possibly tied in with footage of a DE vs Skaven quest battle. Just in time for the Age of Sigmar's second birthday 
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Jun 30, 2017 14:40
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 basically skaven invaded a lizardman city from underground and killed them all, and they're mining warpstone and doing rat things. your ending is death by rat, death by rat, death by lots of falling/lots of rats/ or death by killer pot it does confirm some kind of eshin rat dude with a vanishing act, and warpstone, and warpstone bullets. no real surprises.
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Jun 30, 2017 14:46
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You wanted rats, there are the rats.
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Jun 30, 2017 14:51
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Ra Ra Rasputin posted:Thinking of picking up either Beastmen or Woodelves on sale to try in steel faith, which one is the more fun and challenging of the campaigns, I heard woodelves were sorta overpowered easymode and would like a challenge. Both have extremely powerful unit buffs through the commander skill trees, Elves are fun but have kinda a lovely starting position, they only get godlike when you've absorbed the other elves which is an insane pain in the rear end unless you just wait until you can confederate them later. Beastmen are probably my favourite faction but are also quite easy once you get the hang of them, their ambushing hordes mean you can evade and pick fights incredibly easy and their large number of vanguard units mean even if the ambush doesn't spring you can be up in people's grill immediately. They're my favourite because they're the most focussed faction IMO, all about speed and charges and CA weren't afraid to give you some extremely strong campaign buffs to that end. Plus its fun to have your lord rush with the gors while a kill-team of a Gorebull and minotaurs (or two kill teams) just shatter everything on the opposing side thats remotely threatening. e: I am extremely hype to play skaven. I'm going to install all the mods that give them 400 unit size. Communist Thoughts fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Jun 30, 2017 |
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