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Qrr posted:So we're all very excited for the next episode, but I think we're ignoring the most important part of the update. It's most likely a Higurashi reference, the way the character who becomes Bern dies in many fragments is by being disembowelled. The character is also associated with cats (as is Bern) and the character implied to be Featherine was there for all of it.
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Jun 30, 2017 23:14
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So who else saw the pile of raw meat and thought Ange was coming back to the game board layer?
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Jun 30, 2017 23:26
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EagerSleeper posted:Followed closely by Tii-san, the tea master who ensures that the mansion guests are in a good enough mood to cooperate in the story. I do my best
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Jul 1, 2017 00:10
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ZiegeDame posted:So who else saw the pile of raw meat and thought Ange was coming back to the game board layer? hosed up that my first though seeing meat was the fact that Bern and Lambda ate Ange's remains too, this game really molds innocent minds to devilish conclusions. 
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Jul 1, 2017 00:38
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EagerSleeper posted:Everything is a metaphor in this game, including the Chiester Corp, who represent the winchester shotguns on the island. By this logic, it stands to reason that for every single object on the island, there can be a corresponding character associated with it. Next chapter character predictions include Tabako-chan, a character that represents Hideyoshi's cigarettes that he's always smoking. Followed closely by Tii-san, the tea master who ensures that the mansion guests are in a good enough mood to cooperate in the story. Don't even get me started on Taifūn-sama, leader of the storm and each individual raindrop that gets their own character as well.  Beautiful
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Jul 1, 2017 00:52
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EagerSleeper posted:Everything is a metaphor in this game, including the Chiester Corp, who represent the winchester shotguns on the island. By this logic, it stands to reason that for every single object on the island, there can be a corresponding character associated with it. Next chapter character predictions include Tabako-chan, a character that represents Hideyoshi's cigarettes that he's always smoking. Followed closely by Tii-san, the tea master who ensures that the mansion guests are in a good enough mood to cooperate in the story. Don't even get me started on Taifūn-sama, leader of the storm and each individual raindrop that gets their own character as well. Hah. A chorus of ahaha.wav would be impressive to see. I should also remind people that forgot that the Chiesters are also very very likely references to the band rabbits that Maria had in episode 4. Graylien posted:It's most likely a Higurashi reference, the way the character who becomes Bern dies in many fragments is by being disembowelled. The character is also associated with cats (as is Bern) and the character implied to be Featherine was there for all of it. I in no way remembered her being associated with cats. This of course means I should go over Higurashi again.
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Jul 1, 2017 01:28
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resurgam40 posted:it'd be fine if they were one offs or one note, but nobody's proved to be that. resurgam I'm laughing, not at you, but the idea that this complaint about Umineko basically boils down to "oh my god, so much character development! too many seemingly gimmicky characters that grow into well-rounded, three-dimensional people! it's too much!" EagerSleeper posted:However, judging by ShKannon's situation, it's possible for multiple characters to be tied to each thing. You can finally have a dissociative mackerel with multiple personalities. You can have as many characters on this one island as the eye can see. You can fit even more on top of that too because vision is a nonobjective perception of reality. Infinite characters. Infinite anime. Infinitely ahahaha'ing. Imagine. I can imagine it and it is GLORIOUS.
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Jul 1, 2017 01:50
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Cyouni posted:
ProfessorProf posted:
More than just "very very likely," I think?
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Jul 1, 2017 02:31
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"C, cowards!! Hey, let go of me, rabbit band!!"
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Leave my mackerels alone!
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Jul 1, 2017 02:32
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Color me surprised then, I was certain that the Chiesters were just a shotgun reference. 
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Jul 1, 2017 02:44
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Cyouni posted:Hah. A chorus of ahaha.wav would be impressive to see. https://polsy.org.uk/play/yt/?vurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DKLdbqSGVTQE
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Jul 1, 2017 02:45
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Cyouni posted:I in no way remembered her being associated with cats. This of course means I should go over Higurashi again. Tbf it's been a very long time since I read it too, so maybe I'm the one getting confused. Clearly the answer is more Higurashi either way though.
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Jul 1, 2017 03:06
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So, since we have a hiatus here before Prof starts on the next episode, I think I'm going to go back and revise my earlier theories of the episodes with new information (specifically, S = K; thankfully I already had S = B). Hell, this hiatus might even last a whole twenty, maybe thirty minutes! Plenty of time. Episode One: Original theory here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3790134&pagenumber=65&perpage=40#post468846693 First murders: Sayo kills all the other people but stays alive herself. She probably just comes by as Shannon and asks them to check out the shed one at a time, then shoots them there. She paints the door with a symbol, then dresses as Kanon to tell everyone that Something is Up At The Old Murder Shed. Hideyoshi is paid off to pretend she's dead there, but she isn't present at all. Once this has been done, she effectively becomes the extra person that Battler theorizes must exist, except that she still possesses a master key. They don't touch much in there, they just close things back up again. A thorough search is never conducted, which is why the fake Shannon deception works; they never even see a body. I believe these murders (and almost all of the murders) are committed with the guns, incidentally. Any other stuff is post-mortem mutilation. I had the motivations backwards before, too; it's Sayo's murder plot with Eva and Hideyoshi as accomplices. We've already been told they're scummy and need money. Kanon pretends to be broken up about Shannon. Or maybe he really is upset that that identity is gone. Either way. Eva accuses Natsuhi of faking a visit to Kinzo... which she actually did. No special explanation necessary here. Natsuhi only claimed to see him as part of the deception of pretending he's alive, which isn't directly related to the murder plot at all. So the next step in the plot is that Sayo takes is to wipe out Eva and Hideyoshi, probably because she doesn't trust them. Which she shouldn't, since they throw suspicion on the servants. S=K=B makes this locked room a lot easier; Kanon and Genji paint the symbol on the door, then cook up a story about finding it chained shut. Kanon takes a detour to the basement to chuck Kinzo's dead deceased corpse into the incinerator, then gets wire cutters and cuts the chain (which wasn't really set) while Kumasawa is freaking out about the symbol. The room was never closed to begin with, so not difficult to murder them here. Then Kanon goes to "investigate" the smell and fakes a mortal wound on himself. Nanjo helps him sell the idea that he's dead. Genji puts a letter on the table to motivate Natsuhi to divide up the people in the room. Sayo kills all the servants, but leaves Maria alive. Then she challenges Natsuhi and kills her in the hallway. After that, the Disaster happens and everyone dies. Episode Two: Original theory here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3790134&pagenumber=42&perpage=40#post467443863 First, the appearance of Beatrice. Sayo dresses up as Beatrice and runs around cackling. Not a big problem. Next, the Chapel Candy Murders. We had some extra red on this one later, so I think the most likely answer to how the "closed room" worked is that the Chapel wasn't actually locked in the first place. This is before we started getting guarantees about how every room was a perfect closed whatever. Everyone went in there, Sayo shot them, and then spent as much time as necessary setting up their corpses to look like candy had burst out of their stomachs. Simple. Jessica and Kanon are together in a room alone. Kanon kills her, then gives up on the Kanon identity completely and leaves the room. Kanon is "dead", but the person who once included Kanon continues. The fight with Beatrice's minions is a symbolic representation of Sayo's inner struggle about what to do here. My original theory about Rosa playing games with the keys is probably unnecessary at this point, knowing what we know. I think Rosa is still in on it, but less directly. She separates the children and servants to make things simpler, and she pretends the chapel door is locked. She isn't actively murdering people herself, though. "Kanon" but not Kanon appears and does some murders; this is probably just Sayo not wearing a servant disguise. Obviously this is going to look weird to people who are used to her dressing up as someone; she looks a bit like Kanon but not exactly. Genji helps hide the bodies before reporting to everyone else that Bad poo poo Is Going Down. George and Shannon die in a room together. I think this is a genuine Shannon corpse since Battler literally looked through her head, so it's probably a murder/suicide, which means Sayo is actually gone as of this point. Sayo murders Gohda and George. Not being able to deal with having done the latter, she then kills herself as well. She probably uses a gun, but rigs it so it's out of the way, and then Genji hides it once they break into the room. (Battler is distracted.) Note that in her case, the stake is NOT found in her head, it's just lying next to her. After this, the Disaster kills everyone. We still haven't gotten any details on exactly what that is, incidentally; I've proposed a fire and someone else had a theory about an explosion. Whatever it is, it's set up in advance, so it still happens. Rosa probably knows this is set up and tries to escape, but fails. Episode Three: Original (partial) theory here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3790134&pagenumber=58&perpage=40#post468130842 The first twilight on this one is pretty interesting. First, Sayo kills all the victims that aren't actually her or Kinzo. She puts them in various rooms and locks the doors with her master key, distributing the other keys as necessary. Sayo dresses as Shannon and goes to the first room, then locks herself in. The order of the rooms is determined by the letters, so this isn't particularly difficult. Nanjo won't let anyone close and examines her. He claims that she's dead and they all leave. She then changes to the Kanon outfit and moves to the last room, then locks herself in there. Same thing happens again. So she's actually faked her death twice on this one. She can still claim Kanon and Shannon are dead in red, though, because she's "killed" those fake personalities. All that's left are Sayo and Beatrice. On the second twilight, Eva kills Rosa so she can keep the gold to herself. Maria is a witness and has to die as well. Eva can then pretend it's the work of the same person, because it follows the pattern. Kyrie gets suspicious of her, though, and confronts Hideyoshi in the other house with Rudolph as backup. Eva sneaks out to meet up with them there, a gunfight ensues. Three of them die as a result. Eva plants stakes in them to continue the story that the original murderer did it, then sneaks back into the house. Later, Eva strangles Krauss and Natsuhi. She might have tricked them into separate areas first, or maybe drugged them (she did say she was going to make them coffee). Then she dumps their bodies. Meanwhile, Sayo "resurrects" Shannon by dressing up as her again, then lures George in and murders him. Eva somehow blinds Jessica (not 100% on this one, maybe a failed assult?). Sayo pretends to be Kanon long enough to lure her away from the action, then kills Nanjo. Eva kills Battler and escapes. The Disaster kills everyone else. Episode Four: Original theory: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3790134&pagenumber=91&perpage=40#post470217404 Krauss gathers everyone in the dining hall. Sayo, as the official head of the family (since I think she's found the gold at this point), is the new "Kinzo" and appears to give a speech. Probably largely about murder. Maybe tea? I dunno. She offers to take some of the adults to see the gold and, in the meantime, sends Kumasawa and Gohda to play a "prank" on the kids by claiming weird magic poo poo happened. She locks the adults into the weird Beatrice Prison, where little gold exists. Then she goes back to the room and shoots the poo poo out of everyone remaining there, smashing in half their heads post-mortem, to match the story that Kumasawa and Gohda were told. She then forces the adults to make various phone calls, tricking the kids outside. She goes out and, dressed as Shannon, kills George. Then she changes into Kanon's outfit and gets Jessica to make a phone call as well, then kills her, then gives up the identity of Kanon ("killing" him). Then she kills all the remaining people in the prison except Kyrie, who is made to make a phone call to Battler and then murdered. She goes to the shed and of course the other servants let her in, at which point she murders them, swaps the keys, and leaves. She then poisons Maria and leaves the body with her mother. Then she switches to the Beatrice outfit, gets a bit drunk, and throws a bit of a shitfit at Battler. Once she sees that he doesn't remember her, she kills everyone that's left, then goes out and commits suicide-by-gun. (Battler didn't really search the area, so she could pretty much drop it wherever or use a rope to pull the trigger remotely.) Kanon's body is never discovered because he has no separate body from Shannon's. Then the Disaster kills Battler. idonotlikepeas fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Jul 1, 2017 |
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Jul 1, 2017 03:10
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idonotlikepeas posted:Hell, this hiatus might even last a whole twenty, maybe thirty minutes! help, I'm being called out
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Jul 1, 2017 03:17
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ProfessorProf posted:help, I'm being called out If you don't like it, stop making all other LP threads look bad.
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Jul 1, 2017 03:23
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ProfessorProf posted:help, I'm being called out Make the hiatus last a month. That'll teach 'em.
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Jul 1, 2017 03:32
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idonotlikepeas posted:So, since we have a hiatus here before Prof starts on the next episode, I think I'm going to go back and revise my earlier theories of the episodes with new information (specifically, S = K; thankfully I already had S = B).  this is a good post! I went through the episodes too and I think you've pretty much got it.One question about E3: why would Eva plant stakes in Hideyoshi, Kyrie, and Rudolf? Did she have any reason to make the murders seem ritualistic if she was planning on killing most everybody anyway?
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Jul 1, 2017 03:52
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witchcore ricepunk posted:One question about E3: why would Eva plant stakes in Hideyoshi, Kyrie, and Rudolf? Did she have any reason to make the murders seem ritualistic if she was planning on killing most everybody anyway? I think it's a misdirect to keep the other survivors thinking it was someone else. She can't just murder everyone all at once, she's got to pick them off one at a time. That's what all that witch toxin stuff is about (symbolically). So it's important that they not gang up on her, and diverting suspicion is a way of preventing or at least delaying that. It's also useful to keep them afraid as much as possible. Scared people make stupid mistakes.
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Jul 1, 2017 03:54
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idonotlikepeas posted:(Battler didn't really search the area, so she could pretty much drop it wherever or use a rope to pull the trigger remotely.) I don't have it in me to dissect this too much, but this bit still really gets to me. It's basically Hypothetical Gun Disposal Device X. My current best theory for a one-body solution is she shoots herself in front of Maria, who then dumps the gun down the well, returns to the dining room, and poisons herself. "Here Maria, eat this magic candy and lay down next to your mommy and the two of you can be together and she'll be nice to you forever in the golden land." Maria is a pretty messed up kid.
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Jul 1, 2017 03:59
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idonotlikepeas posted:I think it's a misdirect to keep the other survivors thinking it was someone else. She can't just murder everyone all at once, she's got to pick them off one at a time. That's what all that witch toxin stuff is about (symbolically). So it's important that they not gang up on her, and diverting suspicion is a way of preventing or at least delaying that. It's also useful to keep them afraid as much as possible. Scared people make stupid mistakes. Hmmmm, I could see that. My first thought was that she could have left well enough alone since in reality, she didn't kill any of them and could have had a solid alibi just by hanging around Krauss and Natsuhi. And my cynical take is that Hideyoshi dying could only bolster her innocence. But the stakes could have been insurance, I guess? It just doesn't feel super convincing still. I would argue that Sayo was in the mansion at the time, witnessed the shootout, then planted the stakes just to gently caress with the survivors. Same motive as what you're laying out, pretty much. witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Jul 1, 2017 |
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Jul 1, 2017 03:59
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havenwaters posted:Make the hiatus last a month. That'll teach 'em. I did it; doesn't work
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Jul 1, 2017 04:04
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ZiegeDame posted:My current best theory for a one-body solution is she shoots herself in front of Maria, who then dumps the gun down the well, returns to the dining room, and poisons herself. "Here Maria, eat this magic candy and lay down next to your mommy and the two of you can be together and she'll be nice to you forever in the golden land." That's not a bad theory, actually. I hadn't thought of that one. witchcore ricepunk posted:Hmmmm, I could see that. My first thought was that she could have left well enough alone since in reality, she didn't kill any of them and could have had a solid alibi just by hanging around Krauss and Natsuhi. And my cynical take is that Hideyoshi dying could only bolster her innocence. But the stakes could have been insurance, I guess? It just doesn't feel super convincing still. Well, she might have been involved. It's not 100% clear what happened in there, just that four went in and three came out. (I don't imagine she killed Hideyoshi, but she might have gotten one of the others.) The stakes ended up in there somehow; it's conceivable that Sayo could have snuck over and done it, too, I just think it's easier timing-wise for Eva to manage. I have no evidence either way, though.
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Jul 1, 2017 04:07
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Alternate theory: Eva didn't kill anyone directly, but if she had announced that she'd found the gold the killings would stop. (Presumably Battler would see whatever Beatrice wanted him to see.) Since she didn't announce, the killings continue, and metaphorically speaking everyone from that point onward is killed as a result of Eva's greed.
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Jul 1, 2017 04:07
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idonotlikepeas posted:Well, she might have been involved. It's not 100% clear what happened in there, just that four went in and three came out. (I don't imagine she killed Hideyoshi, but she might have gotten one of the others.) The stakes ended up in there somehow; it's conceivable that Sayo could have snuck over and done it, too, I just think it's easier timing-wise for Eva to manage. I have no evidence either way, though. ZiegeDame posted:Alternate theory: Eva didn't kill anyone directly, but if she had announced that she'd found the gold the killings would stop. (Presumably Battler would see whatever Beatrice wanted him to see.) Since she didn't announce, the killings continue, and metaphorically speaking everyone from that point onward is killed as a result of Eva's greed. I think ZD's theory explains why the killings went the way they did in E3. Especially George, which to me seemed very cruel and random for her to do until you wrote that!
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Jul 1, 2017 04:27
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Idonoylikepeas, your thoughts are very similar to mine. It's a little surprising how many things allow multiple possible explanations, rather than the usual "it could only have been the butler!"
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Jul 1, 2017 06:43
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We're between episodes, so that means it's time for a manga highlight post! Episode 6 is drawn by Hinase Momoyama, who did one of the Higurashi episodes and who's god drat great. This manga looks fantastic, and is notably the last episode to have an official localization. The first volume of Episode 7 comes out in October. Chick Beato appears, to everyone's confusion:  Battler takes it well:  Romance subplots:  CHOPSTICKS:  Beato the Elder:  Omake:  Erika fights bravely against evil:  Awkward Loser George:  The Swag Assholes:  Battler in an empty room:  Omake:  Erika's sad backstory:  VS EVA:  VS Kyrie:  VS MARIA:  VS Natsuhi:  Erika makes decisions for herself and for no other reason:  A trash can steps on another trash can:  Nice job, Battler:   The Guest Room Seal:  A trap!:  Great Equalizer:  Welcome to hell:  Bern has some trauma:  Oh! A wedding!:  Shannon VS Kanon:  She back:  The game resumes:  Double Revealed Checkmate:  The final duel:   Epilogue: 
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Jul 1, 2017 13:13
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Manga Erika is a lot less... frilly than art Erika. She almost looks like a different person. Luckily the hosed-up demon faces are still there.
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Jul 1, 2017 14:38
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ProfessorProf posted:Omake: Well, yes, I kind of do, actually, given recent revelations/confirmations. I would think Beatrice would already know, though... or maybe that's only True Beatrice who would. ETA: EagerSleeper posted:If the jewel is Alexandrite, a gemstone that changes color depending on what light is shined on it, it could still match. The manga art has reminded me that Natsuhi also has a neck jewel, which is green like the one on the girl in the new portrait. Not sure what that means, though. Cliff Baby? Confused Llama fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Jul 1, 2017 |
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Jul 1, 2017 15:16
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ProfessorProf posted:We're between episodes, so that means it's time for a manga highlight post! <<Very good!>> Confused Llama posted:The manga art has reminded me that Natsuhi also has a neck jewel, which is green like the one on the girl in the new portrait. Not sure what that means, though. Cliff Baby? I think perhaps that could be a fashion motif within the main branch of the family, considering how it's part of the servant uniform as well? Likely, considering the familiar-looking ring on their finger. OR they could be another servant? witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Jul 1, 2017 |
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Jul 1, 2017 15:44
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Graylien posted:Manga Erika is a lot less... frilly than art Erika. She almost looks like a different person. Luckily the hosed-up demon faces are still there. I can imagine the mangaka did not want to waste time drawing all those frills on Erika. Or the publisher. It's really not that important.
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Jul 1, 2017 15:52
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ProfessorProf posted:Shannon VS Kanon:
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Jul 1, 2017 16:34
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ProfessorProf posted:Omake: I am fairly sure that half the thread wants to know what shannon's got going on there at this point. And not just because they're a bunch of creepy goons either.
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Jul 1, 2017 18:00
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ohh yes, give me those smug anime girl faces.
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Jul 1, 2017 18:23
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Tired Moritz posted:ohh yes, give me those smug anime girl faces. Prof if you ever need another new thread title, let this be it
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Jul 1, 2017 19:13
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oath2order posted:I am fairly sure that half the thread wants to know what shannon's got going on there at this point. And not just because they're a bunch of creepy goons either. We still need to know if breast taping method X is reliable. Danaru posted:Prof if you ever need another new thread title, let this be it I want this to have more competition.
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Jul 1, 2017 22:06
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Fabulousvillain posted:I want this to have more competition. Not sure if this is what you meant, but here you go: 
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Jul 1, 2017 23:36
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I don't think that images are allowed as thread titles.
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Jul 1, 2017 23:44
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So it kind of seems like the game's last two episodes have been really focused on the who of everything. Doesn't it seem like the Shannon=Kanon thing was the central bit of the first half of the answer arc? How much do we really know about the culprit, Sayo, and their motives? This line of inquiry is very definitely informed by the thread title change. Some unanswered questions: why did they write the bottle messages? Why did they involve closed room murders? Do any of the scenarios match up with reality? Why is everyone dead? Why did Sayo remain on Rokkenjima after solving the epitaph puzzle and gaining the gold? Are they alive somewhere? Is Battler alive? How much did they know about the Beatrice in Kuwadorian, and how much of that informed their Beatrice persona? Why did they work at the mansion in the first place (and as a 6-year old???)? How much did Nanjo know about them? I have my own answers, and to be honest they mainly have to do with the concept of the unspeakable as it relates to processing trauma. I.e. they have very little to do with the narrative at face value  . So I want to open up the discussion to y'all because you are all very good at working through this and I like reading all of your theories. edit: thank you for the pronoun tips y'all! also yeah, I agree that the confluence of singular/plural with "they/them" is very apt for Sayo. witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Jul 3, 2017 |
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Jul 3, 2017 05:54
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witchcore ricepunk posted:*I've been thinking a lot about pronouns when I write about this person and I think because she gave her name to George as Shannon, the core persona IDs as a woman ??? Please tell me if you think I'm being awful! Generally speaking if you are unsure of the proper pronouns to use for someone (who you can't just ask because they are a fictional character) you'd use they. Bonus points in this instance that it can be both singular and plural.
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Jul 3, 2017 07:13
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witchcore ricepunk posted:So it kind of seems like the game's last two episodes have been really focused on the who of everything. Doesn't it seem like the Shannon=Kanon thing was the central bit of the first half of the answer arc? How much do we really know about the culprit, Sayo, and her* motives? This line of inquiry is very definitely informed by the thread title change. I think the starting work at 6 was likely because core person, (who I'm not even sure is Sayo, giving the name to George may just be a way of manipulating him, or if she truely loves him, and it does seem like she does, but whether it's just Shannon who does, or is Core does as well, who knows, then Sayo could be Shannon's real name, but not Cores, but that also gets a bit confusing), anyway, they stated work at 6 because they were there already. We know that Kinzo kept a Beatrice locked up from birth, and I wouldn't put it past him doing it again. At what point the plan went from 'raise my new waifu' to 'raise a slave' I don't know, but I think somewhere along the way 'raise child as my heir by giving them to Natsuhi' was part of the plan. I think some people theorised that cliff baby was Kinzo and Beato2's child back when we first found out about them, and I think that seems reasonable. And yeah, they is best, some people go for ey, or xe, or similar to avoid the plural confusion, but most use they. Graylien fucked around with this message at 13:19 on Jul 3, 2017 |
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Jul 3, 2017 11:31
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