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HookedOnChthonics posted:The thing I don't get about tezzor's argument is that Lucas is a pretty avowed 60s-70s leftist, who learned to make films on a politically-radical campus in the absolute height of civil rights. Like, for the movies to be totally apolitical fairy tales Lucas would have had to be an extremely, even obsessively intentional and focused filmmaker doggedly stripping out any hint of allegory, which is not the picture of him the tezzor crowd advances. Probably shouldn't think too hard about Tezz's posting. His obsession with the prequels is due to his inablilty to express why he hates them. I think he may have actual mental issues.
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Jul 3, 2017 01:19
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Not a Person
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Jul 3, 2017 01:53
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Not a Person Not a Person  Not a Person  Not a Person 
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Jul 3, 2017 02:11
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It's really hosed up that he would also turn to LotR orcs as an example of disposable monstrous baddies that aren't people, when they are clearly disposable monstrous baddies that ARE people.
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Jul 3, 2017 02:16
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UmOk posted:Not a Person All those things can speak and have emotions (more or less)
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Jul 3, 2017 02:17
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Yaws posted:All those things can speak and have emotions (more or less) It's arguable that as droids go those rolly guys are basically feral animals but I don't see any reason that they wouldn't at least be as smart as the humanoid battle droids.
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Jul 3, 2017 02:18
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Apparently the destroyer droids were designed and built by edgy aliens that kinda look like them.quote:Known for their completely emotionless and murderous ways, they created the design of the three-legged droidekas in their own image.
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Jul 3, 2017 02:24
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Ferrinus posted:It's arguable that as droids go those rolly guys are basically feral animals but I don't see any reason that they wouldn't at least be as smart as the humanoid battle droids. Interesting. I've always thought of them as mindless killing machines. Because that's the way they're portrayed in the films.
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Jul 3, 2017 02:24
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Yaws posted:Interesting. I've always thought of them as mindless killing machines. Why? They roll up and attack, but like, so do stormtroopers. And even so you can see that the pillbugs kind of have trinocular eyes, shoulders and arms, etc.
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Jul 3, 2017 02:25
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Realtalk: Is rolling a form of spinning?
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Jul 3, 2017 02:40
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It's a squares-and-rectangles thing, I think.
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Jul 3, 2017 03:06
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Detective No. 27 posted:Realtalk: Rolling involves friction and forward movement. A wheel can spin, but if the car stays put, there's no rolling.
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Jul 3, 2017 03:12
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Yaws posted:All those things can speak and have emotions (more or less) Like these?    
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Jul 3, 2017 03:48
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UmOk posted:Like these? This is irrelevant because I was talking specifically about Destroyer Droids.
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Jul 3, 2017 03:50
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Yaws posted:This is irrelevant because I was talking specifically about Destroyer Droids. I thought I heard one of them scream in terror as it's about to be killed in the arena battle in AOTC, right at the end before they move to the wider battle, but I could be misremembering. I mean clearly they are intelligent in some fashion, at least as much as, say, sheepdogs. They're some of the very few droids that aren't shown onscreen speaking or otherwise exhibiting unambiguous personhood, it's true, but I think it's more reasonable to assume they are not an exception. Even if they aren't persons, what's your point though?
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Jul 3, 2017 04:07
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:Even if they aren't persons, what's your point though? That the Droids are People angle incessantly bring up is a half-baked idea. If Lucas goal was to portray droids as Persons he botched it badly. Don't half rear end. Either poo poo, or get off the pot. Droids are intelligent and have feelings! Except when they don't!
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Jul 3, 2017 04:13
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Yaws posted:This is irrelevant because I was talking specifically about Destroyer Droids. I think questions about droids being people are relevant to posts about droids being people. Do you agree that the robots in my post are people?
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Jul 3, 2017 04:16
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It's sorta like how humans work. If even a single one of them is a person, then they all are. There are plenty of background characters, both human and alien, who have about as much personality and characterization as a rolly droid but we don't question whether they are people. And I think I remember seeing the rolly droids panic and show fear in the Clone Wars show when they are about to be killed by a Jedi or some other misfortune. I'll have to see if I can remember where/when though.
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Jul 3, 2017 04:21
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It's just not persuasive to claim that something in a science fiction story can't be intelligent because it doesn't look human. The geonosians don't really look like people either.
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Jul 3, 2017 04:23
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Serf posted:It's sorta like how humans work. If even a single one of them is a person, then they all are. There are plenty of background characters, both human and alien, who have about as much personality and characterization as a rolly droid but we don't question whether they are people. Guy in Cloud City running from the Empire carrying an ice cream maker: not a person, because the only thing we see him doing is what any animal would do, fleeing in fear. He doesn't speak or exhibit any higher-order intelligence.
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Jul 3, 2017 04:39
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The difference is the droidekdas don't look or act like anything resembling a person. They're just a tool.
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Jul 3, 2017 04:46
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Yaws posted:The difference is the droidekdas don't look or act like anything resembling a person. They're just a tool. Yes they do, they dash into combat and start using their hands to shoot guns.
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Jul 3, 2017 04:50
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Yaws posted:The difference is the droidekdas don't look or act like anything resembling a person. They're just a tool. Why are we assuming what people look like? By some measures, dolphins and elephants are people, and they don't have a humanoid shape. Hell, some humans deviate from the traditional humanoid shape.
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Jul 3, 2017 04:50
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Ferrinus posted:Yes they do, they dash into combat and start using their hands to shoot guns. That ain't poo poo. Serf posted:Why are we assuming what people look like? By some measures, dolphins and elephants are people, and they don't have a humanoid shape. Hell, some humans deviate from the traditional humanoid shape. So if I ate a dolphin am I a cannibal? We're going to have to agree to disagree on this. Your idea of what denotes personhood is far removed from mine.
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Jul 3, 2017 04:56
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Yaws posted:That ain't poo poo. It is, though. It's all we see most stormtroopers do, for example, and you'd never argue that the stormtroopers who stopped Luke in Mos Eisley are people but that the stormtroopers who silently shoot at Luke on the Death Star aren't people. Logically, the rolly ball droids must be at least as intelligent as the chattier humanoid battle droids, because you have to be able to tell them where to go and whom to shoot, they have to be able to distinguish friend from foe, etc.
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Jul 3, 2017 04:59
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Ferrinus posted:It is, though. It's all we see most stormtroopers do, for example, and you'd never argue that the stormtroopers who stopped Luke in Mos Eisley are people but that the stormtroopers who silently shoot at Luke on the Death Star aren't people quote:Logically, the rolly ball droids must be at least as intelligent as the chattier humanoid battle droids, because you have to be able to tell them where to go and whom to shoot, they have to be able to distinguish friend from foe, etc. The films don't give us any indication of sentience out of them. The have one mode: Kill. For all we know they're controlled remotely. Again, not people.
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Jul 3, 2017 05:03
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Yaws posted:That ain't poo poo. When one member of a given species consumes another member of the same species in whole or in part, that is cannibalism. Personhood is irrelevant. You "droids aren't people" folks need to up your game or, y'know, be careful. All droids shown in the films are sentient. Many droids shown in the films are also sapient. The fact that droids are made of metal and machines are made of metal should trouble you no further than the fact that trees, dogs, and people are all made of organic compounds.
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Jul 3, 2017 05:04
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homullus posted:All droids shown in the films are sentient. Well not really. Droids are shown varying degrees of intelligence. There's no real consistency so you can throw the whole thing out. Anyway, this whole argument is pointless because the droid thing isn't explored much and doesn't reach a satisfactory conclusion. Even if I accept what your peddling (and I don't) it's not particularly interesting and doesn't improve the films one bit. I know you guys are desperate to add some thematic layers to the prequels so you can justify enjoying them, but this is about the worst way to go about it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 3, 2017 05:10
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Yaws posted:The difference is the droidekdas don't look or act like anything resembling a person. They're just a tool. Let's say you're correct... again, what's your point? That this specific model of droids does not include personhood? So what? Almost all the rest of the droids we see, at least by type, do. Threepio (thus protocol droids), Artoo (thus astromechs), EV-9D9 and the droids in her BDSM dungeon, the battle droids (including super battle droids in ROTS), etc.
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Jul 3, 2017 05:11
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Yaws posted:They speak. Stormtroopers are human. Flesh and blood. This angle of yours is weak and you'd be better off dropping it. Droids DO speak, though. Tons of machines of all shapes and sizes speak and otherwise show personality in Star Wars. So, for the same reason that we can infer that non-speaking, combat-only stormtroopers are thinking beings, we can also infer that non-speaking, combat-only droids are thinking beings. This is pretty simple.
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Jul 3, 2017 05:11
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Yaws posted:Well not really. Droids are shown varying degrees of intelligence. There's no real consistency so you can throw the whole thing out. Non-human creatures with varying degrees of intelligence are all sentient.
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Jul 3, 2017 05:18
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People in this thread want to have sex with Star Wars droids THEY'RE PEOPLE GOD DAMNIT!!!!!!!!
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Jul 3, 2017 05:18
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Super Fan posted:People in this thread want to have sex with Star Wars droids http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/BD-3000_luxury_droid/Legends
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Jul 3, 2017 05:23
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Hey Ferrinus, this is a pro click for you. I think you'll LOVE it
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Jul 3, 2017 05:25
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Realtalk: Are the lil mouse droids people or just robomice? If they're roboanimals then not all droids are necessarily people, some are sentient but not sapient.  E: Oh hi new page RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Jul 3, 2017 |
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Jul 3, 2017 05:26
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Yaws posted:Well not really. Droids are shown varying degrees of intelligence. There's no real consistency so you can throw the whole thing out.
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Jul 3, 2017 05:27
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Yaws posted:They speak. Stormtroopers are human. Flesh and blood. This angle of yours is weak and you'd be better off dropping it. The ability to speak does not make you intelligent. Now get out of here!
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Jul 3, 2017 05:36
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Super Fan posted:Hey Ferrinus, this is a pro click for you. I think you'll LOVE it Please, the smooth curves and smoldering stare of the droideka-class battle droid have nothing to do with my argument.
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Jul 3, 2017 05:49
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Yaws posted:Well not really. Droids are shown varying degrees of intelligence. There's no real consistency so you can throw the whole thing out. The plight of the battle droids isn't an emotional linchpin of the films, but it's certainly a part of the longstanding motif in Star Wars whereby droids are depicted as hapless peons whose lot in life is to suffer in tragicomic ways due to events beyond their control. The battle droids are given a certain degree of comic personality and charm befitting their role as hopelessly outmatched mooks, and then they're depicted being sliced in half, chopped to pieces, and otherwise blithely mutilated by the heroes, at times even exhibiting a pitiable degree of fear and running away before being violently destroyed. Almost everything having to do with the battle droids is tinged with an obvious element of black comedy, which wouldn't be possible unless the viewer recognizes the battle droids as being feeling entities--which I suspect most everyone watching the movies actually does, automatically and unconsciously. This is taken even further in TCW, where the battle droids are constantly acting in the traditional Star Wars robot role as relatable workaday Joes commenting on the unbelievable events transpiring before them, as well as the absurdity of their own hopeless situation. There's a clear and undeniable presence through all this of a well-established series theme regarding droids and their place in the universe. What you're doing is the equivalent of arguing that since the philosophical issues of droid suffering aren't explored in very much explicit depth in the films (which is true, as far as it goes), that means that, say, the random power droid who's being tortured in Jabba's palace isn't intended to elicit any sympathy from the viewer or further the motif. It's a willful denial of obvious (if characteristically breezily treated) philosophical content simply because it's present in films which you do not like.
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Jul 3, 2017 06:31
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Yaws posted:Well not really. Droids are shown varying degrees of intelligence. There's no real consistency so you can throw the whole thing out. I dont think we're even on that level of discussion. This is like remedial comprehension of super basic storytelling. X in a story talks and makes decisions. Is X a character? If not, are we even speaking the same language, because words must mean different things to you and me.
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Jul 3, 2017 06:32
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