Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

Rhukatah: Feb 26, 2013; by Nyc_Tattoo

bedpan posted:

Goldman has plenty of ways to get paid and none of these involve a gunboat diplomacy gambit, like something right out of 1910.

The bonds, due in 2022, are not Venezuelan treasury bonds but bonds issued by the state oil company, PDVSA. PDVSA has plenty of overseas assets, like all of Citgo, and if PDVSA were to default, they would instantly be subject to lawsuits filed by the bondholders in every jurisdiction possible. This sort of recovery isn't exactly cheap or quick, but it will work and this is an acceptable risk/cost considering Goldman purchased 2.8 billion dollars in securities at 31 cents on the dollar.

For Maduro, and more importantly Venezuela now and in the years to come, this deal means an upfront gain of about $865 million, which will be used to shore up his position, and all it cost was $3.65 billion payable over the next 5 years! And this is far from the only deal like this that Maduro has cut!

Venezuela is going to be screwed for decades.

Oh, and don't forget these securities are denominated in dollars.

That's reassuring. I had assumed that the PDVSA's main assets were Venezuela's oil reserves an that the repeated stories about the regime's supposed links to terror were meant to set the stage for an Iraq-style occupation.

# ? Jul 1, 2017 16:30

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 27, 2024 21:25

Ghost of Mussolini: Jun 26, 2011

Bob le Moche posted:

This is all just a big joke to you isn't it?

Just trying to engage on a level you understand.

# ? Jul 1, 2017 16:52

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:

It's South America hugoon, it's not about ideology - it's about survivability and preventing retarded extremists from taking power and bleeding the country dry.

You would of voted Kuczynski Over Keiko - it's not like Humala Made much progress.

I've got some bad news for you re: Venezuela.

# ? Jul 1, 2017 17:35

Feinne: Oct 9, 2007; When you fall, get right back up again.

Rhukatah posted:

That's reassuring. I had assumed that the PDVSA's main assets were Venezuela's oil reserves an that the repeated stories about the regime's supposed links to terror were meant to set the stage for an Iraq-style occupation.

Everything I've seen makes me think the US government is currently content to wait until the PSUV higher ups try and gently caress off out of the country to blow them up with robots/get them if they pass through anywhere that will extradite.

# ? Jul 1, 2017 18:23

and i must meme: Jan 15, 2017

ok so i don't know a lot about venezuela but i see a lot of soft maduro apologism on the left that i feel may be based on bullshit

no one actually says maduro is good (they might say chavez was), but people are very critical of the opposition, painting them as violent borderline fascist rightwingers backed by the local ruling class and the CIA who destroy food stores, hoard supplies and attack innocent chavistas

is there any truth to this whatsoever? or are people just believing the telesur line because they post memes or something

# ? Jul 1, 2017 18:38

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

and i must meme posted:

is there any truth to this whatsoever? or are people just believing the telesur line because they post memes or something

I can't speak to the memes, but I will say that the people who write off the opposition as elitist, CIA-backed terrorists who don't speak for the majority of Venezuelans are simply wrong.

A couple of points on this:

Venezuela's congress, the National Assembly, was ruled by chavismo (the movement that Hugo Chavez started and that Maduro later took over) since 2000. The chavista movement had a majority of seats in the National Assembly from 2000 to 2016. In December 2015, we had elections for the National Assembly, and the legislature flipped to the opposition. The opposition won 56.22% of the vote to the PSUV's 40.91%. The opposition got over two million more votes than the PSUV. The opposition campaigned hard on being an alternative to the PSUV, and they won.

Chavismo suffered the worst electoral defeat in its history in those elections due to the overwhelming amount of discontent with Maduro and his party. Over 7.5 million Venezuelan voters placed their trust in the opposition as an alternative to the disastrous, corrupt and brutal authoritarianism of the PSUV.
Survey after survey after survey has shown that Maduro and the PSUV are deeply unpopular, and that Venezuelans want change. A survey from March of this year showed that 76.3% of Venezuelans disapproved of Maduro as president, and that 74% of Venezuelans wanted a change in government. That was before the protests started in April.
Venezuelans were supposed to go to the polls twice last year: a recall referendum against Maduro, and regional elections for governor, state assembly and mayor. The Maduro regime cancelled both elections. The reason is clear: they knew that they were going to lose both votes to the opposition. I can go into this in more detail, but if you Google "Venezuelan cancels elections" or "Venezuela cancels recall" you'll get English articles talking about this abuse.

The kinds of people who accuse the opposition of being fascists, baby killers, etc. are the kinds of people who 1) are pushing the regime line straight out of Maduro's mouth, and/or 2) are desperate to find a way to validate their worldview in light of overwhelming evidence that they are wrong.

EDIT: I just caught this on Twitter. It's a video on the "Green Cross" medical student volunteers who provide first aid to protesters.

https://twitter.com/bbcstories/status/881111152981233664

Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Jul 1, 2017

# ? Jul 1, 2017 19:15

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

remember a far removed tankie from north dakota knows more about fascist actions than venexuelans living it.

# ? Jul 1, 2017 20:12

fnox: May 19, 2013

and i must meme posted:

ok so i don't know a lot about venezuela but i see a lot of soft maduro apologism on the left that i feel may be based on bullshit

no one actually says maduro is good (they might say chavez was), but people are very critical of the opposition, painting them as violent borderline fascist rightwingers backed by the local ruling class and the CIA who destroy food stores, hoard supplies and attack innocent chavistas

is there any truth to this whatsoever? or are people just believing the telesur line because they post memes or something

There's no evidence whatsoever of the opposition engaging in activities that are in any way worse than the atrocities the government has committed, nor is there any real merit to the notion that they're right wing as the opposition now contains former PSUVistas who are unrepentant Chavistas such as the Attorney General Luisa Ortega Diaz.

# ? Jul 1, 2017 20:16

ThisIsWhyTrumpWon: Jun 22, 2017; by Smythe

and i must meme posted:

ok so i don't know a lot about venezuela but i see a lot of soft maduro apologism on the left that i feel may be based on bullshit

no one actually says maduro is good (they might say chavez was), but people are very critical of the opposition, painting them as violent borderline fascist rightwingers backed by the local ruling class and the CIA who destroy food stores, hoard supplies and attack innocent chavistas

is there any truth to this whatsoever? or are people just believing the telesur line because they post memes or something

Venezuela's Oposition is to the left of any single Colombian Political Party.

Venezuela doesn't have right wing politicians. They're all leftists.

# ? Jul 1, 2017 22:03

Dr Kool-AIDS: Mar 26, 2004

and i must meme posted:

ok so i don't know a lot about venezuela but i see a lot of soft maduro apologism on the left that i feel may be based on bullshit

no one actually says maduro is good (they might say chavez was), but people are very critical of the opposition, painting them as violent borderline fascist rightwingers backed by the local ruling class and the CIA who destroy food stores, hoard supplies and attack innocent chavistas

is there any truth to this whatsoever? or are people just believing the telesur line because they post memes or something

It's just like Ukraine, where "anti-imperialists" who just happen to always end up siding with Russia on everything constantly make the government of Ukraine to be the bad guys rather than Russia. Picking some actual bad guys who are part of the anti-Russian coalition in Ukraine and painting any Ukrainian loyalist with that brush in order to whitewash an ongoing invasion of Ukrainian territory is super lovely (though I have to admit I don't think a super bellicose response is the answer to that situation either).

Likewise, picking imaginary or marginal figures who are part of a broad coalition to fight the actually existing authoritarian government in Venezuela in order to try to delegitimize and demonize any action aimed at resisting that dictatorship is the go to tactic for people who aren't quite willing to defend Maduro but obviously want him to remain in power anyway. You'll see leftists who loving hate the police in their own countries complaining about the "violent fascists" who attacked a police officer during protests in Venezuela, without mentioning any context of the daily violence inflicted by police on protesters. People who engage in this behavior absolutely deserve to be labeled as tankies.

# ? Jul 2, 2017 02:56

Budzilla: Oct 14, 2007; We can all learn from our past mistakes.

Geopolitical Youtube channel Caspian Report did a video of the current state of Venezuela. Probably mostly useless for most of the people in the thread but good to link to people who are unfamiliar with the situation.

If you look though the channel they did 2 videos a few years back explaining the protests (at the time) and the inflation problem. Some might not like it but it is a decent starter.

# ? Jul 2, 2017 11:32

my kinda ape: Sep 15, 2008; Everything's gonna be A-OK; Oven Wrangler

and i must meme posted:

ok so i don't know a lot about venezuela but i see a lot of soft maduro apologism on the left that i feel may be based on bullshit

no one actually says maduro is good (they might say chavez was), but people are very critical of the opposition, painting them as violent borderline fascist rightwingers backed by the local ruling class and the CIA who destroy food stores, hoard supplies and attack innocent chavistas

is there any truth to this whatsoever? or are people just believing the telesur line because they post memes or something

I think some socialists (and I more or less identify as one) have a hard time believing/understanding that just because a government/party is or claims to be socialist it's not necessarily a good one. A corrupt, authoritarian government should not be tolerated no matter what economic or political flag they fly.

# ? Jul 2, 2017 14:56

Mulaney Power Move: Dec 30, 2004

my kinda ape posted:

I think some socialists (and I more or less identify as one) have a hard time believing/understanding that just because a government/party is or claims to be socialist it's not necessarily a good one. A corrupt, authoritarian government should not be tolerated no matter what economic or political flag they fly.

It's not that hard to believe unless you choose to write off any authoritarian or corrupt socialist regime that has existed in history as "not true socialism."

# ? Jul 2, 2017 16:52

Feinne: Oct 9, 2007; When you fall, get right back up again.

Mulaney Power Move posted:

It's not that hard to believe unless you choose to write off any authoritarian or corrupt socialist regime that has existed in history as "not true socialism."

The baffling thing is that Maduro hasn't quite yet gotten to the 'not true socialism' state yet among everyone.

# ? Jul 2, 2017 20:48

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

my kinda ape posted:

I think some socialists (and I more or less identify as one) have a hard time believing/understanding that just because a government/party is or claims to be socialist it's not necessarily a good one. A corrupt, authoritarian government should not be tolerated no matter what economic or political flag they fly.

This. As someone solidly on the left, I've been appalled to see Chavez and now Maduro inflict an illiberal kleptocracy on their country in the name of "socialism". Chavez could have taken the country down an entirely different path, but he drove it into the ground—and that's before the price of oil took its nosedive. Rather than working to alleviate the serious poverty in Venezuela, he funneled cash to his cronies, mismanaged the economy, undermined civil institutions, and bought off voters with band-aids.

And yes, some on the left in America and Europe are stuck viewing foreign affairs through a lens that casts everything in the light of American imperialism. America's various historical misdeeds around the world and particularly in the region should not excuse an rear end in a top hat authoritarian murdering protesters, but most people use intellectually-bankrupt shortcuts to understand things they're only aware about in passing.

If you want to try to persuade American leftists who've arrived at the wrong conclusion because of this, do as Sinteres says and, rather than attacking them as idiots, draw parallels to the police violence they argue against in the States. If you make an inroad with that, move on to detail the regime's subversion of democratic institutions and the phony nature of their support for the poor.

# ? Jul 3, 2017 05:04

DangerZoneDelux: Jul 26, 2006

Rhukatah posted:

That's reassuring. I had assumed that the PDVSA's main assets were Venezuela's oil reserves an that the repeated stories about the regime's supposed links to terror were meant to set the stage for an Iraq-style occupation.

They have sizeable assets not related to oil. That's the hosed up part. The Maduro led government is starving people intentionally to break them. Oil being down is just a small part of the equation. The long term issue is the human capita drain. PDVSA isn't ran by the best and brightest anymore. They booked it a long time ago.

Also the US State department is still mostly staffed by Obama appointees. They have no intentions of intervening directly since Trump hasn't designated any replacements or talked about any Latin America policy other than the border wall.

# ? Jul 3, 2017 06:42

Bob le Moche: Jul 10, 2011; I AM A HORRIBLE TANKIE MORON
WHO LONGS TO SUCK CHAVISTA COCK !

I SUGGEST YOU IGNORE ANY POSTS MADE BY THIS PERSON ABOUT VENEZUELA, POLITICS, OR ANYTHING ACTUALLY !

(This title paid for by money stolen from PDVSA)

My position on Venezuela has nothing to do with the fact that the government calls itself socialist and I took the same position about Egypt under Mubarak for example.

I am very curious, however, what the people who say that Venezuela is "not true socialism" would consider a good actual example of a "true socialist" country.

# ? Jul 3, 2017 15:25

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

It kind of is true socialism, because socialist countries in general seem to have a hard time actually representing the will of the people, and have a habit of going down the authoritarian route. In that sense Venezuela's fall from democracy as the government pursued the idea of the 'Bolivarian Revolution' isn't entirely unexpected.

You can definitely say "this isn't really how socialism is supposed to work", it's just that you could say that for basically every socialist country.

# ? Jul 3, 2017 16:26

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

Cicero posted:

You can definitely say "this isn't really how socialism is supposed to work", it's just that you could say that for basically every socialist country.

Every country in the Western world embraces economic and social policy that can be accurately described as "socialist" to some extent. It's just that where Western countries use tax dollars to provide a social safety net and reinvest in their populations, shitbags like Chavez invested in his cronies, corrupted the state apparatus into an instrument of his will, and gave his people stagnation and decline.

# ? Jul 3, 2017 17:52

fnox: May 19, 2013

This is breaking news, I don't have a source yet, I just saw this on a live cast. Julio Borges, President of the National Assembly is calling for a referendum to be held on the 16th of July to call for three things: to decide if the constituent assembly will pass or not, to summon the participation of the Venezuelan Armed Forces to solve the constitutional crisis, and to form a new transitional government which will call for general elections. This would be following Article 71 of the constitution.

# ? Jul 3, 2017 17:56

Bob le Moche: Jul 10, 2011; I AM A HORRIBLE TANKIE MORON
WHO LONGS TO SUCK CHAVISTA COCK !

I SUGGEST YOU IGNORE ANY POSTS MADE BY THIS PERSON ABOUT VENEZUELA, POLITICS, OR ANYTHING ACTUALLY !

(This title paid for by money stolen from PDVSA)

Cugel the Clever posted:

Every country in the Western world embraces economic and social policy that can be accurately described as "socialist" to some extent. It's just that where Western countries use tax dollars to provide a social safety net and reinvest in their populations, shitbags like Chavez invested in his cronies, corrupted the state apparatus into an instrument of his will, and gave his people stagnation and decline.

OK so the only "true socialist" countries according to "leftists" who go on about "true socialism" are the white imperialist nations that form the core of the capitalist world-system, got it

# ? Jul 3, 2017 18:00

Saladman: Jan 12, 2010

fnox posted:

This is breaking news, I don't have a source yet, I just saw this on a live cast. Julio Borges, President of the National Assembly is calling for a referendum to be held on the 16th of July to call for three things: to decide if the constituent assembly will pass or not, to summon the participation of the Venezuelan Armed Forces to solve the constitutional crisis, and to form a new transitional government which will call for general elections. This would be following Article 71 of the constitution.

I saw that reported elsewhere too, seems pretty likely to be true. It's about goddamn time that the AN at least tries to block the constituent assembly, or at least demand that it be held constitutionally (i.e. with a popular vote). Still, I can tell you what will happen: they're calling for a referendum? The CNE will "think about it". Unless you meant a referendum for the AN to vote on, in which case their vote will be held to be unconstitutional.

Unfortunately, I don't see any way to stop Maduro declaring a dictatorship through the avenues open to legislators, unless more influential people besides Ortega start to flip. Chuck and etc have said that the PSUV is not monolithic, but they're sure keeping up a good face of being so up until the end.

# ? Jul 3, 2017 18:13

fnox: May 19, 2013

Saladman posted:

I saw that reported elsewhere too, seems pretty likely to be true. It's about goddamn time that the AN at least tries to block the constituent assembly, or at least demand that it be held constitutionally (i.e. with a popular vote). Still, I can tell you what will happen: they're calling for a referendum? The CNE will "think about it". Unless you meant a referendum for the AN to vote on, in which case their vote will be held to be unconstitutional.

Unfortunately, I don't see any way to stop Maduro declaring a dictatorship through the avenues open to legislators, unless more influential people besides Ortega start to flip. Chuck and etc have said that the PSUV is not monolithic, but they're sure keeping up a good face of being so up until the end.

I believe this is not being done through the CNE. It is a popular referendum that is intended to be held on that date. The government will most definitely attempt to block it, and that will serve as a legal platform to declare open rebellion and form a transitional government anyway.

# ? Jul 3, 2017 18:20

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

Yes, the popular referendum vote will take place on July 16.

I missed the address at the National Assembly, but as you've all pointed out it's going to be interesting to see how the vote happens at all. There is zero chance that the CNE will be involved in the process.

Article 71 of the Constitution does give the National Assembly the power to call for referendums, but it doesn't specify how to actually conduct them. I suppose the default answer is "the CNE takes care of that".

Luisa Ortega Diaz gave a speech at the National Assembly today as well, and she also released a video statement to Venezuelans. I'll post an English translation of it before the end of the day.

Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Jul 3, 2017

# ? Jul 3, 2017 18:26

fnox: May 19, 2013

The one thing I like about this is that it is being held in 2 weeks. Finally the opposition has realised that they don't have any time to spare. I'm against this whole charade seeing how this really isn't the time for any elections, but I can see why they at least want the government to block this, so long as they hold up with the claim that they are to declare a transition government.

# ? Jul 3, 2017 18:42

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

In the speech that she released today, Luisa Ortega Diaz once again called on Venezuelans to act through Article 333 of the Constitution, which (rather vaguely) calls on every citizen to work together to restore democratic rule in the country.

Here's the attorney general's speech and my translation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY7Wo1Guz0M

Luisa Ortega Diaz posted:

At this moment, when democracy, institutions and human rights in the country are being seriously threatened, I have the duty to speak to all Venezuelans as attorney general and express my firm commitment to defend the Constitution of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela and to ensure its compliance.�

From the Public Ministry, we have been tirelessly fighting to guarantee the integrity of the Constitution. Our compromise and commitment adhere to judicial principles, as evidenced by the daily actions of our sheriffs, directors and other officials from this honourable and democratic institution.�

My role as attorney general demands that I mount our republic's first line of defense, and set a path for our people. Institutions should work, and they should be respected. This is why the Public Ministry--perhaps one of the last few democratic windows available to us-- will not be intimidated by the attacks and threats against the country, nor will it give up the rights and liberties of Venezuelans without a fight.�

Article 333 of the Constitution says that citizens, whether or not they have been granted authority, have the duty to work together to re-establish that same document. This is why I am calling on everyone who love this land who feel her in our hearts, who want a certain quality of life and who want their families to be reunited, and who want their children to return to the country with opportunities for the future, to defend our rights peacefully and without violence.

Our struggle is not political. It is our nationality and idiosyncrasy where we find the great common values that motivate us to rescue Venezuela. Let us defend the Constitution together, that document which garners the greatest amount of understanding among Venezuelans in recent times. Now more than ever we must be united and join forces to restore the rule of law, the independence of public institutions, our quality of life and the peace that we deserve.

Liberty and the future are at stake. We cannot lose Venezuela. I assure that I will not rest until Venezuela once again walks on the path of freedom. Surrender is not an option. Let us not lose hope. That is what those who want the country for themselves and to rule over ruins would want.�

Let us join forces now, convinced that the moment to defend this beautiful land has come.�

It's nice to see the attorney general come out so strong against the regime's abuses, but I'm really conflicted about this and I know that I'm not the only one. Luisa Ortega Diaz has been attorney general for 10 years now, and she's overseen some of the most obscene abuses of justice and human rights violations in the country. There are hundreds, maybe thousands of innocent people who were imprisoned by her courts.

Don't get me wrong: as the old saying goes, "The pest time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now." I'm glad she's finally doing the right thing, but we can't forget that she's one of the main reasons why we're here at all.

fnox posted:

The one thing I like about this is that it is being held in 2 weeks. Finally the opposition has realised that they don't have any time to spare. I'm against this whole charade seeing how this really isn't the time for any elections, but I can see why they at least want the government to block this, so long as they hold up with the claim that they are to declare a transition government.

I agree! It also seems like we're heading into a do-or-die moment. The opposition winning the National Assembly and then the regime just ruling it out of existence was bad enough, but I think what we're heading into is worse.

The devil is in the details, though. We need to know what this referendum will look like.

# ? Jul 3, 2017 19:12

caberham: Mar 18, 2009; by Smythe; Grimey Drawer

drat so many posts but you guys are really patient.

Can I ask about the neighbors of Venezuela? How do they feel about the rotting situation and have people shifted the political spectrum / government management policy / immigration policy?

I know Brazil is actually profiting from the out flow of talent in the oil industry and it's going through government reform. But how about other countries ? Someone mentioned Bolivia and Evo Morales, can anyone share more about that because Evo Morales seems to have a similar ideology with people power politics if I'm correct.

And about the Goldman deal, is it actually in the interests of US foreign policy to allow banks institutionally exploit a country of suffering on a very large scale? Developed countries occasionally do debt relief, is Goldman going to do the same for some good PR in the future? If I remember correctly the argentine government fought tooth and nail over their debt obligations and at the end cut the deal and call it even. Some of the debt owners got burned while those who held on or even bought other people's debts made a killing.

If bankers are able to calculate profitability in such an unstable market, then what is the minimum cost for this deal to be still profitable? Say that 31 cents on the dollar was too much pressure for the government to pay back, at 60 cents on the dollar wil Goldman still benefit?

And why just Goldman and not other big banks like deustche bank?

# ? Jul 3, 2017 19:25

Negostrike: Aug 15, 2015

Brazil's government doesn't seem to be giving a gently caress about it. I personally think it's unnerving and revolting that such a situation is going on in the same continent.

# ? Jul 3, 2017 19:39

Celexi: Nov 25, 2006; Slava Ukraini!

Brazil has historically never cared about anything that goes in Venezuela, they may be neighbors but they don't really care much about each other.

# ? Jul 3, 2017 20:12

fnox: May 19, 2013

Brazil has a wall of jungle that separates it almost hermetically from its neighbour, on everything but a few issues related to the sparsely populated Amazonian region. This wall of jungle makes it fundamentally impossible for any land immigration from Venezuela to Brazil, which Colombia doesn't have. Obviously, of all countries, Colombia is the one most concerned about the stability of its neighbour, but I think every country in South America is concerned enough that they want to prevent a possible refugee crisis from happening, at the very least they have that incentive.

# ? Jul 3, 2017 20:26

Vlex: Aug 4, 2006; I'd rather be a climbing ape than a big titty angel.

fnox posted:

Brazil has a wall of jungle that separates it almost hermetically from its neighbour, on everything but a few issues related to the sparsely populated Amazonian region. This wall of jungle makes it fundamentally impossible for any land immigration from Venezuela to Brazil, which Colombia doesn't have. Obviously, of all countries, Colombia is the one most concerned about the stability of its neighbour, but I think every country in South America is concerned enough that they want to prevent a possible refugee crisis from happening, at the very least they have that incentive.

This is not quite true, depending on your "profession" (bachaquero, minero, guerrillero), the Brazilian border with Amazonas is quite porous. Similarly, if you're indigenous and with relations on the other side, the border is something highly, highly abstracted and is usually seen as a cosa de blancos.

# ? Jul 3, 2017 20:32

fnox: May 19, 2013

Vlex posted:

This is not quite true, depending on your "profession" (bachaquero, minero, guerrillero), the Brazilian border with Amazonas is quite porous. Similarly, if you're indigenous and with relations on the other side, the border is something highly, highly abstracted and is usually seen as a cosa de blancos.

It's safe to say that if the Venezuelan situation were to escalate into something where people would rather grab whatever they can carry on their backs and move to a neighbouring country, they would much rather do so through the Colombian border than the Brazilian one, that's what I meant.

# ? Jul 3, 2017 20:41

Vlex: Aug 4, 2006; I'd rather be a climbing ape than a big titty angel.

fnox posted:

It's safe to say that if the Venezuelan situation were to escalate into something where people would rather grab whatever they can carry on their backs and move to a neighbouring country, they would much rather do so through the Colombian border than the Brazilian one, that's what I meant.

Yes, I realise that was your point, I just wanted to point out that the Brazilian border doesn't truly exist in a Checkpoint Charlie BEYOND HERE LIETH BRASIL kind of way on the back of it.

# ? Jul 3, 2017 20:45

TROIKA CURES GREEK: Jun 30, 2015; by R. Guyovich

Cugel the Clever posted:

Every country in the Western world embraces economic and social policy that can be accurately described as "socialist" to some extent. It's just that where Western countries use tax dollars to provide a social safety net and reinvest in their populations, shitbags like Chavez invested in his cronies, corrupted the state apparatus into an instrument of his will, and gave his people stagnation and decline.

This is silly, the existence of social programs, which have been around since well before socialism was ever conceived, do not on their own make a country "socialist". It's likewise weird when people try and bill the US military as a 'socialist' organization-- getting mediocre pay and healthcare for a job you get blown up in doesn't make an org socialist, either. It's little different than saying the USSR was capitalist because you had things like people trading for the more desirable housing locations (interestingly this seems to be a problem in all assigned-housing systems- from Cuba to NK).

It's not very surprising to see the far left act kinda dumb about Venezuela -- it was constantly held up as the shining leftist star on the hill, and it turns out that the positives people were able to point to (to divert attention away from the repression and general shittiness of chavez), like the poverty reduction, were temporary side-effects of a house of oil-wealth cards. It's all just more evidence that actual socialism isn't a very good economic system in practice, at least compared to hybrid models like the Nordic.

# ? Jul 4, 2017 16:43

DoctorStrangelove: Jun 7, 2012; IT WOULD NOT BE DIFFICULT MEIN FUHRER!

And the Nordics are actually surprisingly pro-business. Their programs are funded by personal, not corporate, income taxes.

# ? Jul 4, 2017 20:58

Celexi: Nov 25, 2006; Slava Ukraini!

Vlex posted:

This is not quite true, depending on your "profession" (bachaquero, minero, guerrillero), the Brazilian border with Amazonas is quite porous. Similarly, if you're indigenous and with relations on the other side, the border is something highly, highly abstracted and is usually seen as a cosa de blancos.

There is even an official border crossing that leads to a medium sized brazilian city, I honestly don't know why venezuelans don't use it as much and go to colombia instead.

# ? Jul 4, 2017 21:12

orange sky: May 7, 2007

So now a loving plane crashes in the ocean?

Things aren't going well

What are the odds that this was an assassination?

# ? Jul 4, 2017 22:49

Vincent Van Goatse: Nov 8, 2006; Enjoy every sandwich.; Smellrose

orange sky posted:

So now a loving plane crashes in the ocean?

Things aren't going well

What are the odds that this was an assassination?

Depends who was on it.

# ? Jul 4, 2017 23:01

Celexi: Nov 25, 2006; Slava Ukraini!

What plane and where? I can't find any news on that yet.

# ? Jul 4, 2017 23:09

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 27, 2024 21:25

Labradoodle: Nov 24, 2011; Crax daubentoni

Sorry for the link in Spanish, but as far as I can tell, none of those names jump out (http://www.ntn24america.com/noticia/avion-asignada-a-la-vicepresidencia-de-venezuela-amarizo-cerca-de-margarita-145976).

A minister said it was a mechanical failure and I don't see any reason to doubt that at this point. Keep in mind this is the same government that can't be bothered to do maintenance on its own oil rigs, so it's not surprising their planes are falling apart as well.

# ? Jul 4, 2017 23:27

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

«‹›584 »