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I feel like that old mathematician joke works well for Ethereum too, thanks to the difficulty doubling so rapidly. An infinite number of miners walk into a bar and ask for their payouts. The first one gets a half bitcoin, the second one gets a quarter of a bitcoin, the third gets an eighth of a bitcoin... then the bartender sighs and pays the miners a full bitcoin, and says "you fellas really oughta know your limits". edit: then the miners buy more GPUs to try and stay at 0.5 BTC per month, and die in a house fire Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Jul 5, 2017 |
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Jul 5, 2017 00:29
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Paul MaudDib posted:Again, for what? Mining? Nah, when it pops it's over. It's already pretty much over even at pre-bubble prices for hardware, $3.50 per day with payouts halving every month means your $250 GPU will never pay itself back. I'll consider quitting GPU mining only when my current rig drops less than £8.40 (or $10) a week. It's not like ASIC miners will get me anywhere, I already learned the hard way those things are just useless and only consume more power.
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Jul 5, 2017 00:46
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_oHQPWRWnQ
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Jul 5, 2017 00:53
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noooo i just put down a mortage on the condition that my 1080 stays at $4 a day for 30 years
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Jul 5, 2017 01:15
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Junior Jr. posted:I'll consider quitting GPU mining only when my current rig drops less than £8.40 (or $10) a week. It's not like ASIC miners will get me anywhere, I already learned the hard way those things are just useless and only consume more power. Holy poo poo, really? That's too low even for me. What are you mining on? There's no way the components wearing out justifies that low profit. Mining crypto is so loving dumb. At least with Proof of stake you aren't wasting a lot of electricity. Anyway, excuse me while I heat my cryptoburrito on top of my GPU grill
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Jul 5, 2017 01:40
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Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:Holy poo poo, really? That's too low even for me. What are you mining on? There's no way the components wearing out justifies that low profit. 1080Ti (factory overclocked) and a 1060 6GB (also slightly factory overclocked), but yeah I thought the first payout I got this week was decent, unless it was supposed to be higher than that.
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Jul 5, 2017 01:51
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Junior Jr. posted:It's not like ASIC miners will get me anywhere, I already learned the hard way those things are just useless and only consume more power.
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Jul 5, 2017 02:04
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The manufacturer will "test" them for you until they're not profitable than happily send you off your now worthless ASICs confidant they will not blow up. There is no circumstance where buying hardware for mining makes sense, at best you got lucky if you did turn a profit, the odds were better that you'd lose money. Use whatever gaming hardware you have laying around, get 30-50 dollars a week and ride it until it's not worth it for your power costs. Start up again when there's another bubble or the next generation of hardware comes out (that you were buying for games anyways) and it's worth it again for a few weeks.
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Jul 5, 2017 02:15
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This Biostar mining GPU doesn't leave out the display outputs but instead uses lower-binned "lite edition" silicon: https://www.techpowerup.com/234880/biostar-intros-va47d5rv42-mining-graphics-card-with-rx-470d-gpu
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Jul 5, 2017 02:41
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Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:Holy poo poo, really? That's too low even for me. What are you mining on? There's no way the components wearing out justifies that low profit. Proof of Stake wastes even more electricity than Proof of Work, there is no proposed proof of stake system that doesn't just turn into a roundabout proof of work system
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Jul 5, 2017 03:34
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QuarkJets posted:Proof of Stake wastes even more electricity than Proof of Work, there is no proposed proof of stake system that doesn't just turn into a roundabout proof of work system Jesus dude, that's like 50 pages of a white paper and I'm but a simple crypto miner Edit: skimming through it looks like this dude just wants to defend Bitcoinz but lol quote:“The proof of work won’t just be double-sha-256, it will do something useful for society, like finding prime numbers…” Haha, no it isn't Comfy Fleece Sweater fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Jul 5, 2017 |
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Jul 5, 2017 03:40
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Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:Jesus dude, that's like 50 pages of a white paper and I'm but a simple crypto miner Well yeah it's written by a butter so of course it over-promises on the potential of cryptocurrency but the grander point is that proof of stake is secretly no less wasteful than proof of work, which is true Anyone who tells you that blockchains in the future are going to be more efficient because they'll use proof of stake is either lying to you or doesn't know any better
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Jul 5, 2017 03:44
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Where is the coin that is mined with human blood sacrifices
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Jul 5, 2017 05:25
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QuarkJets posted:Well yeah it's written by a butter so of course it over-promises on the potential of cryptocurrency but the grander point is that proof of stake is secretly no less wasteful than proof of work, which is true Wait, POS is just POW except you have to already have buttcoinz to participate? And here I thought it was just premining magnates taking income for having cryptobutts they hadn't spent yet. You know, another ridiculously dumb financial incentive, so par for the course for cryptocurrencies. As a true marxist I support proof of burn. E: Oh yeah - For some reason equihash will randomly slow down to ~1/2 or less speed until I reboot. Nothing else will fix it but a reboot. Not sure if there's a way to detect and script that or I just say "gently caress it" because mining is stupid anyway. Harik fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Jul 5, 2017 |
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Jul 5, 2017 05:28
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Pro tip: Buy a 1080ti for mining and milk it baby. Once it loses profitability sell it to me.
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Jul 5, 2017 06:08
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once it loses profitability, keep it and have the best gaming GPU
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Jul 5, 2017 06:17
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Dren posted:Where is the coin that is mined with human blood sacrifices
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Jul 5, 2017 06:22
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Harik posted:Wait, POS is just POW except you have to already have buttcoinz to participate? And here I thought it was just premining magnates taking income for having cryptobutts they hadn't spent yet. That's the objective of POS, but it also results in several attack vectors where you can use computational power to do things like bias the probability of being rewarded the next block in your favor or generating alternative blockchains in a way that leaves wallet software unable to determine which one is the "real" one (which has a number of uses, such as rewarding yourself all of the past mining rewards, or reversing future transactions). At this point POS is just an easier to exploit POW algorithm
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Jul 5, 2017 06:59
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QuarkJets posted:That's the objective of POS, but it also results in several attack vectors where you can use computational power to do things like bias the probability of being rewarded the next block in your favor or generating alternative blockchains in a way that leaves wallet software unable to determine which one is the "real" one (which has a number of uses, such as rewarding yourself all of the past mining rewards, or reversing future transactions). At this point POS is just an easier to exploit POW algorithm Links? Haven't been following this closely but uh... I'm not exactly astonished. Due to these kinds of issues I fully expect a massive hardfork when the Ice Age kicks in (which is supposed to be the switchover to POS). Like not only is it killing the golden goose for miners, but if you're a true believer then why would you want to test this kind of fundamental architectural change on a production system? Ethereum Classic is the "immutable" blockchain where everyone follows the rules, the DAO attacker found a vulnerability and got paid for it. But it's also the blockchain where one attacker now owns 15% of the money supply and can crash the price at will, so it's pretty much tainted. The POS switchover is going to be the catalyst for a whole new Ethereum Classic hardfork, and this time it may be more successful. But either way, in the short term, Eth prices will plummet. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Jul 5, 2017 |
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Jul 5, 2017 07:55
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QuarkJets posted:Proof of Stake wastes even more electricity than Proof of Work, there is no proposed proof of stake system that doesn't just turn into a roundabout proof of work system QuarkJets posted:Well yeah it's written by a butter so of course it over-promises on the potential of cryptocurrency but the grander point is that proof of stake is secretly no less wasteful than proof of work, which is true QuarkJets posted:That's the objective of POS, but it also results in several attack vectors where you can use computational power to do things like bias the probability of being rewarded the next block in your favor or generating alternative blockchains in a way that leaves wallet software unable to determine which one is the "real" one (which has a number of uses, such as rewarding yourself all of the past mining rewards, or reversing future transactions). At this point POS is just an easier to exploit POW algorithm Now that's comedy gold. And here I was thinking the problem was that PoS is really blatantly "thems what has, gets." Is there a readable writeup not written by someone skinnydipping in an Olympic size cesspool and loudly insisting the sewage is fine today? Or do I have to dive into this awful thing
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Jul 5, 2017 08:32
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divabot posted:Now that's comedy gold. And here I was thinking the problem was that PoS is really blatantly "thems what has, gets." I just finished reading it, and it's a pretty solid description of how things work. No matter what you do, how you do it, or what rules are in place, if someone can be awarded $50 worth of goodies, a large enough group of people will eventually spend $49.999 in effort and goods in order to be the one to get that $50. It doesn't really touch the poop much, and just sorta does the academic "we're going to assume, for the sake of argument that X is true, Y is correct and Z is a thing we should care about". In a POW system, it takes the form of buying ASIC rigs and finding a country with decent internet and cheap electricity, someone will spend $50-(cost for loan interest+risk preference)=0 on it. In a POS system, it takes the form of locking up a shitload of cash to buy butts, to 'bond' in an 'investment' as a validator, so you have the chance of earning $50. Much like a CD at your local credit union, only with 5000% more currency speculation and fraud potential. The spending limit is 'if I bought CDs or high yield mutual funds with similar risk, how much money would I have to invest to earn $50 in the same time period'. So instead of spending cash on mining cards and electricity, you're spending today's money and the interest you could get by investing in non-butt activities for future rewards. Much harder to calculate, and not trivially obvious to someone who didn't pay attention in their college econ classes. Basically if POS has a low enough investment threshold to get a minimum bonded share, I expect there to be a shitload of people who are bad at judging risk, time horizon effects, market externalities, and other factors investing way too much then never getting it back because the currency implodes after the fork and they're left holding the bag for 11.7 more months.
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Jul 5, 2017 09:46
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Methylethylaldehyde posted:I just finished reading it, and it's a pretty solid description of how things work. No matter what you do, how you do it, or what rules are in place, if someone can be awarded $50 worth of goodies, a large enough group of people will eventually spend $49.999 in effort and goods in order to be the one to get that $50. It doesn't really touch the poop much, and just sorta does the academic "we're going to assume, for the sake of argument that X is true, Y is correct and Z is a thing we should care about". yeah ... I see the point, not sure how to formulate it clearly in two sentences. looking through dude's paper, he's mixing English with economics jargon and insisting the latter is what the English actually means. Could be just too deep in econ, or could be heavily invested in making out that Bitcoin's proof of work mechanism is not the horrendous and ghastly waste it really obviously is. Also, political advertising should totally be unlimited, because everything is Econ 101.
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Jul 5, 2017 10:24
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no way a butter would selectively find the data to support his bad decisions
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Jul 5, 2017 10:33
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The econ is reasonably sound, and the arguments make sense, for certain values of sense. Buttcoins have value because people are willing to trade goods for them. It doesnt ever claim the price can only go up up UP! Just that it has value (schadenfreud and comedy have value!). Then it goes onto explain that for a given value of goods X, people will invest effort and goods with a cumulative value of X on it. Basically I will spend $50 to get $50, be that $50 in cash, credit, buttcoins, or labor. Thats how all trades work with enough competitors. Basically his arguement is that in any system that rewards someone with $50 in buttcoins, people will piss away up to $49.999 in order to win them. POW is electricity and ASICs, POS is tying up huge sums of capital that could have been otherwise invested. One wastes physical goods, the other wastes an intangible one. The intangible one is super difficult to actually evaluate the value of, so the POS buttlords tout is as 'efficient'. The actual macroeconomic theory is a fuckload more complex, but thats the tldr. Edit: It absolutely is a horrific waste of electricity, time and human effort, but 'waste' is a subjective valuation. Buying a new iphone every year is also wasteful in the eyes of some. As soon as it stops paying to mine, people will stop doing it. If WasteCoin offered you $50 to post a video of you burning the most gasoline in a pit on youtube, someone who has no overhead, is willing to work for pennies per hour, and lives near the gas station will burn $49 worth and call the $1 he made 'pure profit'. Econ dont care, and neither does he. Methylethylaldehyde fucked around with this message at 11:13 on Jul 5, 2017 |
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Jul 5, 2017 11:02
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current draft summary para in book - how's this look? too dense?quote:Proof of Work is obviously wasteful. The other main proposed consensus model is Proof of Stake, in which the next block miner is chosen at random according to how many coins they already own. This saves on wasted hashing, but is a bit too blatantly a rentier economy – “thems what has, gets.” And it will obviously tend toward people putting in up to $50 worth of effort to acquire $50 worth of coins – a stealth “proof of work” however you try to structure it. This gets no more than a para; consensus models go: PoW (obviously stupid), PoS (experimental, less obviously stupid but still stupid), let's-take-turns on a permissioned blockchain (not wasteful, but then why are you bothering with a blockchain). There's lots of Proof of X models which are a fancied-up PoW or PoS or cross between them. divabot fucked around with this message at 11:41 on Jul 5, 2017 |
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Jul 5, 2017 11:11
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Methylethylaldehyde posted:I just finished reading it, and it's a pretty solid description of how things work. No matter what you do, how you do it, or what rules are in place, if someone can be awarded $50 worth of goodies, a large enough group of people will eventually spend $49.999 in effort and goods in order to be the one to get that $50. It doesn't really touch the poop much, and just sorta does the academic "we're going to assume, for the sake of argument that X is true, Y is correct and Z is a thing we should care about". It goes beyond that as well, for instance with "stake grinding". If your stake gets to generate the next block, then you can use computational power to generate N slightly varied blocks (for instance, you could just gently caress with the header data or you could vary how the block reward is distributed to various wallets), checking each block to see whether it would cause you to be rewarded the next block as well. More computational power means increasing the probability that you're signing consecutive blocks (and collecting those additional mining rewards). This doesn't require increasing your stake at all, it just requires waiting until you win a block and then trying to adjust it (with brute force) so that you win the next block too e: Technically you can't do it unless you have some stake, since you need to gain a block legitimately, but once you do get that block then your computational power determines how many additional consecutive blocks you'll be able to secure QuarkJets fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Jul 5, 2017 |
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Jul 5, 2017 12:20
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QuarkJets posted:This doesn't require increasing your stake at all, it just requires waiting until you win a block and then trying to adjust it (with brute force) so that you win the next block too Then you are now investing your original stake, plus the brute force time, effort and cost, and risking your stake by breaking the rules. You still are willing to bet that those costs are less than the reward youd get, which was the entire point of the econ argument. It doesnt know or care about how POW or POS work, all it knows is that people will spend cash, electricity, gold, buttcoins, and effort cheating the system equal to the expected reward.
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Jul 5, 2017 12:28
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Methylethylaldehyde posted:Then you are now investing your original stake, plus the brute force time, effort and cost, and risking your stake by breaking the rules. You still are willing to bet that those costs are less than the reward youd get, which was the entire point of the econ argument. It doesnt know or care about how POW or POS work, all it knows is that people will spend cash, electricity, gold, buttcoins, and effort cheating the system equal to the expected reward. Stake grinding isn't breaking the rules; at the end of the day you're still publishing a valid block, you're just varying that block within the range of validity attempting to ensure you'll get the subsequent block as well. The "brute force time, effort and cost" can be summarized as "Proof of Work". No stake is risked by doing this, just money spent on computational resources (which is no different than Proof of Work mining) This isn't in the spirit of Proof of Stake, but for years it's been pretty widely accepted that pure Proof of Stake is just slightly different Proof of Work
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Jul 5, 2017 13:06
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QuarkJets posted:but for years it's been pretty widely accepted that pure Proof of Stake is just slightly different Proof of Work for years? that sounds like a cite I need ... I just ran that test para past my fb and one reader balked at the idea of <$50 effort however you slice it to get $50 coins, there's a limit to how Econ 101 I'm gonna go here ...
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Jul 5, 2017 13:22
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Methylethylaldehyde posted:Then you are now investing your original stake, plus the brute force time, effort and cost, and risking your stake by breaking the rules. You still are willing to bet that those costs are less than the reward youd get, which was the entire point of the econ argument. It doesnt know or care about how POW or POS work, all it knows is that people will spend cash, electricity, gold, buttcoins, and effort cheating the system equal to the expected reward. Except we know that is vastly oversimplified bullshit when applied to human behavior. People regularly pay more than the value of something just to avoid "losing out", especially in zero-sum situations with sunk costs. Bitcoiners seem particularly prone to the "it will be worth bajillions in the future!" excuse. I look forward to proof of stake because it will provide a new and exciting source of laughs. There is no way that a bunch of operations don't pop up promising to pool a bunch of smaller stakes together to boost the chance of hitting the payout, with operators deciding on the regular to skip the wait and just steal everyone's coins instead.
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Jul 5, 2017 13:35
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It looks like general crypto prices (april-now) fluctuate on a 2 week timespan, which happens to coincide with the nicehash biweekly payment. Still have a 1050ti on order 
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Jul 5, 2017 14:45
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Biostar Cryptocurrency motherboard and GPU: http://www.anandtech.com/show/11604/biostar-mining-tb250-btc-pro-motherboard-rx-470d-gpu 
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Jul 5, 2017 18:10
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Gobbeldygook posted:this is for commercial copyright infringement and distribution of child pornography. The Something Awful Forums > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > The Cryptocurrency Thread: sexual assault with a miner
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Jul 5, 2017 18:44
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Methylethylaldehyde posted:The econ is reasonably sound, and the arguments make sense, for certain values of sense. Buttcoins have value because people are willing to trade goods for them. It doesnt ever claim the price can only go up up UP! These things are deflationary by design, so barring government intervention the price will continue to go Up Up Up!!! while liquidity goes Down! Down! Down! I'm not really sure if that's going to impact the analysis, but that assumption is definitely wrong.
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Jul 5, 2017 20:07
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divabot posted:for years? that sounds like a cite I need ... I just ran that test para past my fb and one reader balked at the idea of <$50 effort however you slice it to get $50 coins, there's a limit to how Econ 101 I'm gonna go here ... Here's a recent paper with a section describing stake grinding (although not by name) and pointing out that there exists no blockchain that has achieved distributed consensus with pure Proof of Stake. PeerCoin started out using checkpoints (aka a centralized authority) to prevent stake-grinding with the intention of later going pure Proof of Stake, but when they tried to do that everyone immediately started stake-grinding. IIRC people were talking about stake grinding before Peercoin was released, which was 2012. https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf Proof of Stake also enables an attack vector where you buy a bunch of old private keys on the cheap (old as in "I already spent the coins at these addresses so the keys are worthless to me now, that'll be one song please"). With these keys you can write a new blockchain from that point, assigning the rewards as they would have been assigned normally but this time with you holding those keys, essentially doing a quick history rewriting. Now there are two blockchains, one where those coins were spent by the original owner, the other where they are held by you (plus you have a bunch of additional coins from your stake earning you blocks). To everyone else these blockchains are indistinguishable and no one knows which one to publish blocks or send transactions to. This gets solved by creating a centralized authority who says "at block X the chain looked like this" but now you've violated the decentralized spirit of cryptocurrency and not only made a bunch of libertarians very angry (THE FED) but also eliminated the purpose of your blockchain (wait, if we're going to trust a centralized authority anyway why not just have them verify transactions directly?)
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Jul 5, 2017 21:44
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So not even Proof of Stake is a less dumb verification system? How about a Hard Drive space-based algorithm ? https://www.burst-team.us It's the greenest alt coin
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Jul 5, 2017 22:20
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Quick question, does it help to mine ALL algorithms in Nicehash, or should I just focus my GPUs on the ones with the most/best payouts? (Lbry and Lyra2 I think)
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Jul 5, 2017 23:27
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Junior Jr. posted:Quick question, does it help to mine ALL algorithms in Nicehash, or should I just focus my GPUs on the ones with the most/best payouts? (Lbry and Lyra2 I think) Nicehash will mine what is most profitable at the time so it makes more sense to enable all of the algorithms that you system can run. I've noticed that the blake2s algorithm has started running more and more to the point where it replaced equihash as the most common algorithm my rigs run, it's interesting to see how the algorithm mix changes over time. I guess now we're all mining NevaCoin and NetkoCoin whatever the gently caress those are. MaxxBot fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Jul 6, 2017 |
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Jul 6, 2017 00:55
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Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:So not even Proof of Stake is a less dumb verification system? This is awesome, my $4000 NAS could earn me $6.50 a month! That's only 52 years before I start to turn a profit, quite the legacy to leave my kids. Why, I'd only be dead 12 years when they get their first check from it! I'd say it's the stupidest altcoin, but no, it's just the worst one I've seen today.
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Jul 6, 2017 01:23
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Harik posted:This is awesome, my $4000 NAS could earn me $6.50 a month! That's only 52 years before I start to turn a profit, quite the legacy to leave my kids. Why, I'd only be dead 12 years when they get their first check from it! Sounds like basically a private torrent tracker but with bitcoin instead of ratio.
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Jul 6, 2017 01:28
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