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apokaladle posted:My black identity exists, in large part, in the context of being raised in a white supremacist society. It is an identity that leads me towards resistance and righteous fury. In a future devoid of white supremacy, it may well metamorphose into something else entirely, but there is an independent existence. What aspect of white identity can say the same? Indeed. Stay strong brother.
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Jul 5, 2017 05:40
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For myself, claiming an independent existence of any identity is a massive joke - it's essentialist garbage no matter how you spin it. The only logical way to live is without identity. But the precondition for that is the elimination of antagonisms that give rise to identity in the first place, which means not excluding anyone. "Inherent meaning for me and not for thee" isn't going to fly, for fairly obvious reasons.
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Jul 5, 2017 05:45
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Sure.
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Jul 5, 2017 05:50
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So I started looking up more info on the SPLC lawsuit against Andrew Anglin because of a godawful GBS thread. An interesting little legal thing: BrutalistMcDonalds posted:The SPLC's complaint is here btw: https://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/whitefish_complaint_finalstamped.pdf Also I checked PACER again and Anglin still hasn't responded. BrutalistMcDonalds has issued a correction as of 05:54 on Jul 5, 2017 |
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Jul 5, 2017 05:51
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rudatron posted:If you believe such a thing is possible for black identity, you have no logical grounds for claiming it's impossible for a white identity. To do otherwise is to suggest that white people (and only white people) are uniquely without an independent existence or whatever, which is simply an inversion of the same logic white supremacists use for blackness. Whiteness is uncultured because anything positive you could try to claim is uniquely "white" is actually inherited from national, ethnic, and regional practices. The same isn't true for black Americans, who were forcefully stripped of all ties to their heritage and had to develop a completely new identity and culture in the context of a society which defined them by their blackness. Blackness in the absence of white supremacy can be reformed according to that heritage, but white identity can't. Being the oppressor isn't any kind of basis for a heritage, because it's inherently toxic. As a southern white guy, am I supposed to identify with the planters, the KKK, or any of the Jim Crow fanatics? Why the Hell should I? The only thing that makes sense is to just make a complete break from it.
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Jul 5, 2017 05:56
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Al! posted:as long as someone believes in the total overthrow of the capitalist st8 and abolition of private property they can have any number of horrible little individualist opinions and theyre still cool with me I notice more left unity since the election bc leftists are coming together to identify the real enemy, liberals
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Jul 5, 2017 05:59
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Ace of Baes posted:I notice more left unity since the election bc leftists are coming together to identify the real enemy, liberals what we should have known since 1848
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Jul 5, 2017 06:06
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Whiteness is uncultured because anything positive you could try to claim is uniquely "white" is actually inherited from national, ethnic, and regional practices. The same isn't true for black Americans, who were forcefully stripped of all ties to their heritage and had to develop a completely new identity and culture in the context of a society which defined them by their blackness. Blackness in the absence of white supremacy can be reformed according to that heritage, but white identity can't. Being the oppressor isn't any kind of basis for a heritage, because it's inherently toxic. As a southern white guy, am I supposed to identify with the planters, the KKK, or any of the Jim Crow fanatics? Why the Hell should I? The only thing that makes sense is to just make a complete break from it. Where are white people even from? Like, did they even exist before America? 
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Jul 5, 2017 06:10
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Whiteness is uncultured because anything positive you could try to claim is uniquely "white" is actually inherited from national, ethnic, and regional practices. The same isn't true for black Americans, who were forcefully stripped of all ties to their heritage and had to develop a completely new identity and culture in the context of a society which defined them by their blackness. Blackness in the absence of white supremacy can be reformed according to that heritage, but white identity can't. Being the oppressor isn't any kind of basis for a heritage, because it's inherently toxic. As a southern white guy, am I supposed to identify with the planters, the KKK, or any of the Jim Crow fanatics? Why the Hell should I? The only thing that makes sense is to just make a complete break from it. Basically, identifying as Irish or German or Italian or whatever, you can find culture there to be proud of. But "White" in aggregate has never meant anything other than slave owners, confederates, klansmen, land pirates, imperialists, etc. spacetoaster posted:Where are white people even from? Like, did they even exist before America? OR! Maybe it's actually this, and whiteness in aggregate actually means proudly supporting are troops and are Presidant Tump. 
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Jul 5, 2017 06:12
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Whiteness is uncultured because anything positive you could try to claim is uniquely "white" is actually inherited from national, ethnic, and regional practices. The same isn't true for black Americans, who were forcefully stripped of all ties to their heritage and had to develop a completely new identity and culture in the context of a society which defined them by their blackness. Blackness in the absence of white supremacy can be reformed according to that heritage, but white identity can't. Being the oppressor isn't any kind of basis for a heritage, because it's inherently toxic. As a southern white guy, am I supposed to identify with the planters, the KKK, or any of the Jim Crow fanatics? Why the Hell should I? The only thing that makes sense is to just make a complete break from it. Who you choose to identify with is your own concern - and like I said, I think the only way to live is without identity - but you're not being intellectually consistent by saying what you're saying here. You shouldn't let your own personal struggles of finding validation in the position you're in, cloud your judgement on the more abstract issue here.
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Jul 5, 2017 06:14
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seems pretty silly to make up a deep personal connection to whatever eastern euro shitholes my ancestors crawled out of instead of accepting that the defining feature of my identity is that im from ohio
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Jul 5, 2017 06:15
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Also: Here's Anglin's attorney. Defended the porn industry for years and then bad things happened; he went bankrupt. Also filed a friend of the court brief in the Axanar suit (supporting Axanar), when CBS took a Star Trek "fan film" to the woodshed: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/11/how-copyright-lawyer-marc-randazza-got-famous-lost-friends-and-went-broke/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3hhAH4mlQk
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Jul 5, 2017 06:20
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rudatron posted:I can't see this as anything but special pleading, you can make exactly the same argument backwards by inverting the roles here - something you're subtly acknowledging here with the 'but everything white is actually inherited' hand-wave. There's nothing inherent about being oppressor or oppressed, that gives one the ability to have 'real' identity and denies the other the same courtesy. People react to the situation they find themselves in, constantly. They are always on the search for validation, affection and community. And when embedded in a community, will of course manufacture elements for that community - ergo, culture. Whether they are in an advantaged or disadvantaged position has no bearing on that fundamentally human desire. This is all reductionist nonsense. It's impossible to live without identity because the self is shaped according to the lived experience, and the people we identify with are those we feel to share a commonality of struggle. To live without an identity means that you're incapable of relating to anybody. deadgoon posted:seems pretty silly to make up a deep personal connection to whatever eastern euro shitholes my ancestors crawled out of instead of accepting that the defining feature of my identity is that im from ohio All anybody ever has to say to me is that they've lived in Oklahoma and I get it.
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Jul 5, 2017 06:26
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rudatron posted:For myself, claiming an independent existence of any identity is a massive joke - it's essentialist garbage no matter how you spin it. The only logical way to live is without identity. But the precondition for that is the elimination of antagonisms that give rise to identity in the first place, which means not excluding anyone. "Inherent meaning for me and not for thee" isn't going to fly, for fairly obvious reasons. Exactly.
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Jul 5, 2017 06:29
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A common struggle is merely one way of forming commonality with people, and it's commonality writ large that creates trust - you believe you can trust someone, because you are more alike than you are different, because of X. The primary purpose of identity formation is exclusion of those you can't trust, for both valid and questionable reasons. Identity cannot exist without exclusion, it's always formed in opposition to something, or more particularly, someone. It's nothing to do with more abstract 'lived experience', which can include anything, including jerking off all day.
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Jul 5, 2017 06:41
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rip star trek fan films
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Jul 5, 2017 07:27
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rudatron posted:A common struggle is merely one way of forming commonality with people, and it's commonality writ large that creates trust - you believe you can trust someone, because you are more alike than you are different, because of X. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20B4Dvk_9cY
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Jul 5, 2017 07:52
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*rudatron reading a slave master's diary about how slave girls are good "practice"* "There's no real difference between me and this." 
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Jul 5, 2017 07:53
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rudatron posted:A common struggle is merely one way of forming commonality with people, and it's commonality writ large that creates trust - you believe you can trust someone, because you are more alike than you are different, because of X. I think there's a distinction to be made between active and passive exclusion. In a sense, yes, if you're not black you are excluded from the black identity, that goes without saying. That doesn't mean that I view you as less of a comrade, that just means that we don't share whatever commonality comes from that (and I am unclear as to your grounds for dismissing lived experience). If you have a concrete example of some worthy rescue from a concept of a white identity--not a working class identity in a largely white region, or Irish or German or what have you, but an explicitly white identity--I'm open to hearing it, but I doubt that you'll have something to offer. In a world where capital and bigotry alike have been abolished, I can still share my Caribbean heritage and the unique culture of resistance that has imparted on me, along with good food and all of that. What does an explicitly white identity have to offer me in that world? No, on the whole, I have to say that I'm a strong believer in white abolition. Incidentally, I find that my closest white comrades agree with me on this point.
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Jul 5, 2017 08:11
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just want to say that im not getting laid but im not turning altright
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Jul 5, 2017 08:19
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but you also don't post about it on r/incel i imagine?
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Jul 5, 2017 08:23
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Kurtofan posted:just want to say that im not getting laid but im not turning altright I'm not getting laid either, doesn't make me a Nazi for obvious reasons though! Funny how sexual frustration is only understandable from a white male perspective but that's a whooooole nother conversation
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Jul 5, 2017 08:28
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Kurtofan posted:just want to say that im not getting laid but im not turning altright Dunno how you get from no identity -> no ideology/morality, but don't do this poo poo dude. What does your 'unique culture of resistance' have to offer in a world where resistance is not necessary? Answer: the question is stupid, exactly the same artifacts that you think can survive from your perspective, have an equivalent in 'whiteness' that we can treat the same way, woke jokes about the tastelessness of mayonnaise or whatever aside. The re-targeting of this towards archaic ethnic bullshit from eastern europe or whatever doesn't fly, because that's not the context in which white people in America today engage with it. Of course my preference for an absence of identity remains the same. I also find your invocation of My White Friends...kind of ironic, I guess?
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Jul 5, 2017 08:35
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rudatron posted:Dunno how you get from no identity -> no ideology/morality, but don't do this poo poo dude. There is no such thing as ideology or morality if you can't even identify an ideal or a moral to follow. If you don't think there's a real difference between yourself and the ruling class, you're not a leftist.
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Jul 5, 2017 08:52
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apokaladle posted:I'm not getting laid either, doesn't make me a Nazi for obvious reasons though! Funny how sexual frustration is only understandable from a white male perspective but that's a whooooole nother conversation 
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Jul 5, 2017 08:55
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rudatron posted:we can change that (pm me) What universal culture, outlook, foodstuff, etc. is related to a white or even white American experience, and not a regional/ethnic experience? Absence of identity would be great in theory in some respects! It sounds like you're agreeing with me there, except you seem to also if not primarily want to abolish identities that aren't directly and entirely connected to exploitation, so that's where you're losing me As far as my Certified White Friends, turnabout's fair play  Edit: ...yeah, alright, I got nothing for this guy. The reduction to sexual frustration is still incredibly irritating though! woke kaczynski has issued a correction as of 09:01 on Jul 5, 2017 |
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Jul 5, 2017 08:57
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There's no such thing as white identity, there's no such thing as a black identity either. Races don't have identities, you can't believe in grouping billions of vastly disparate people together in such a vague way without implicitly believing in the race war. Am I missing something here? Is this thread just americans saying "black" when they mean "African-american" and struggling to reconcile that with whiteness being bullshit? Sure, Africans have a collective memory of being shat upon, but there's big practical differences to how people actually did in response, along with millions of smaller inconsequential life details that factor into identity much moreso. and lol, why isn't this deadgoon posted:seems pretty silly to make up a deep personal connection to whatever eastern euro shitholes my ancestors crawled out of instead of accepting that the defining feature of my identity is that im from ohio the default response to questions of "how can we make white identity positive"?
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Jul 5, 2017 08:58
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Quote is not edit, I am shamed. I have had discussions about a shared black identity with relatives of mine who haven't ever been to the States. It's definitely more complicated than just US stuff, and I won't claim to have some deep connection to every black person on this planet or anything, but I think you dismiss that connection too easily. ^^that's literally what I'm talking about! Tell me awesome things I don't know about Ohio, or stories of any decent ancestors you have, or whatever! That doesn't mean that you have to cling to this notion of whiteness as a thing to be preserved! woke kaczynski has issued a correction as of 09:04 on Jul 5, 2017 |
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Jul 5, 2017 08:59
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apokaladle posted:
kekistan is a purposefully vague nonsense movement, it's well possible he isn't a nazi and just wants to live irl on the internet (Also a sad terrifying ambition tbh)
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Jul 5, 2017 09:04
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:kekistan is a purposefully vague nonsense movement, it's well possible he isn't a nazi and just wants to live irl on the internet (Also a sad terrifying ambition tbh) Say what you will about national socialism, at least it's an ethos.
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Jul 5, 2017 09:05
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apokaladle posted:If you have a concrete example of some worthy rescue from a concept of a white identity--not a working class identity in a largely white region, or Irish or German or what have you, but an explicitly white identity--I'm open to hearing it, but I doubt that you'll have something to offer. In a world where capital and bigotry alike have been abolished, I can still share my Caribbean heritage and the unique culture of resistance that has imparted on me, along with good food and all of that. What does an explicitly white identity have to offer me in that world? We made the Crank movies. Which I admit are deranged, psychopathic gore-fests that reflect our degenerate aesthetic tastes, but they are also quite creative and entertaining. Some of our movie star celebrities can be quite attractive, though in general we look hideous. We are not very athletic, but we did produce Lance Armstrong (true, he cheated, but he was a hero to us for awhile). We performed a lot of great music, which to be fair didn't originate with us, but a lot of it is pretty good! Well, we screwed a lot of things up, mainly. But perhaps a non-normative white identity that is articulated in more open -- but constructive -- terms can pluck out some of these bright spots and also serve to integrate us into the rest of the world, while contributing to greater harmony for all. BrutalistMcDonalds has issued a correction as of 09:15 on Jul 5, 2017 |
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Jul 5, 2017 09:08
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yeah there are people who think theyre kekistanis or whatever and are too dumb to realize its obvious political connotations. i stumbled on some pretty popular twitter accounts that are dedicated to separating kekistan from the alt right. im pretty sure everyone involved is 14 years old
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Jul 5, 2017 09:12
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:the default response to questions of "how can we make white identity positive"? Being from Ohio isn't an essentially white experience. The real question here is, why would you want to make white identity positive?
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Jul 5, 2017 09:12
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apokaladle posted:I have had discussions about a shared black identity with relatives of mine who haven't ever been to the States. It's definitely more complicated than just US stuff, and I won't claim to have some deep connection to every black person on this planet or anything, but I think you dismiss that connection too easily. If I may ask, are those relatives from the caribbean or africa?
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Jul 5, 2017 09:13
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the most maga pepe person i know irl is the son of muslim immigrants from india. i havent talked to him in awhile but he was always a very nice and funny guy so im pretty confused by it all
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Jul 5, 2017 09:16
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:There is no such thing as ideology or morality if you can't even identify an ideal or a moral to follow. If you don't think there's a real difference between yourself and the ruling class, you're not a leftist. It's also a little essentialist to talk about the ruling class as if it expresses some 'real difference', instead of arbitrary ones. Any group of people sufficiently estranged and indifferent from the anyone they have power over, will manifest exactly the same neuroses and inhumanity you see today or historically. It's nothing to do with them as people - and it's both dangerous and reductionist to be blind to that, because you risk perpetuating the problem by misdiagnosing the cause.
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Jul 5, 2017 09:17
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consumed by normies posted:the most maga pepe person i know irl is the son of muslim immigrants from india. i havent talked to him in awhile but he was always a very nice and funny guy so im pretty confused by it all biggest MAGA Pepe alt-right guy on my Facebook is an Indian Hindu dude. A lot of young South Asian, and South East Asian Pepes.
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Jul 5, 2017 09:21
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Montasque posted:biggest MAGA Pepe alt-right guy on my Facebook is an Indian Hindu dude. A lot of young South Asian, and South East Asian Pepes. yeah the hindu modi supporter types make some sense because they really hate muslims, but uh his parents are literally muslim immigrants.
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Jul 5, 2017 09:22
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:If I may ask, are those relatives from the caribbean or africa? The people I'm thinking of are Caribbean. I've also had some very interesting discussions with friends who are African immigrants or the children of same, but then again that's in an American context. I also find this a fascinating discussion. I'm not wedded to the notion of some everlasting black identity. None of us know entirely how a post revolutionary world will look, and I will never exist in the same context as my hypothetical grandchild who has not experienced these things. However, I would still have the same formative experiences even in that world. Understanding what people may experience as a white identity doesn't mean that it's worth perpetuating.
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Jul 5, 2017 09:26
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rudatron posted:It's also a little essentialist to talk about the ruling class as if it expresses some 'real difference', instead of arbitrary ones. Any group of people sufficiently estranged and indifferent from the anyone they have power over, will manifest exactly the same neuroses and inhumanity you see today or historically. It's nothing to do with them as people - and it's both dangerous and reductionist to be blind to that, because you risk perpetuating the problem by misdiagnosing the cause. So ruling classes express arbitrary differences from the subject classes, but they are also real neuroses that you can identify. Do you realize how loving idiotic this is? The ability to control capital is a real difference between the bourgeois and the proletariat. Those are material relations to the means of production and it doesn't get much realer than that. You're not talking about wiping out identity, because if you can get a capitalist to give up their class privileges and become a prole - all you've done is convinced them to change sides and adopt a proletarian identity. The only sense I can make of this is that you're doing some kind of Deleuzian troll.
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Jul 5, 2017 09:26
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