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Al! posted:otoh it seems like we have more to gain from encouraging and learning from minority perspectives on oppression rather than trying to stifle them for the hopeless cause of preserving white fragility in the vain hope that this will build class solidarity (people don't develop a lifetime of reactionary ideology because a black person was rude to them one time about politics during an election, that's completely dumb) Nobody has said anything about suppressing those identities other than maybe rudatron, but that doesn't make the fact that liberals use identity politics as a weapon to pre-empt any kind of socialist agitation any less true. The issue is bourgeois co-option of minority struggles they have no real claim to represent, not the fact that there are minority struggles.
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Jul 5, 2017 16:58
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I didn't say anything about suppressing anyone you idiots.
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Jul 5, 2017 17:00
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I'm going to be an idiot and stick my hand into the blender here, but if to live with no identity is bad, but to live with "white" identity is equally as bad (Pen brought up good reasons why), what is the alternative? Until that can be found, the alt right will continue to recruit white people as belonging to any identity and group is preferable to isolation. They will also continue to have a free hand in defining what it means to be white as long as no alternative exists. Maybe it's an impossible task for white Americans so redefine themselves, and is basically asking how is the American identity separable from white identity where American does and should define anyone who is an American citizen. Maybe the real value in doing so is limited from a revolutionary standpoint, but having that inclusiveness such an identity provides seems rather important enough, and for white Americans who've only had whiteness as an identity it's a serious problem. To them they feel that white skin is a brand others use to see them as terrible people and that they should be ashamed of it, so they reject the sources it comes from out of hand and all things associated with such sources. Maybe there will s no hope and the alt right will continue to gain power because there is no hope of salvaging anything, there can be no whiteness or white identity so thoroughly has the well been poisoned by white hegemony, power and capital.
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Jul 5, 2017 17:04
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rudatron posted:I didn't say anything about suppressing anyone you idiots. You literally said that there should be no identity which, no matter which way you try to slice it, is going to involve an active suppression of the natural tendency to form identifiable relations to the self.
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Jul 5, 2017 17:05
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easy friendo, this is a high-passion zone true but if you feel you arent being understood appropriately maybe phrase differently? normally when i hear all the newfangled lefty terms and whatnot i kinda just glaze over and  myself as well if it sounds too much like lefty lingo
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Jul 5, 2017 17:06
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:You literally said that there should be no identity which, no matter which way you try to slice it, is going to involve an active suppression of the natural tendency to form identifiable relations to the self. rudatron posted:For myself, claiming an independent existence of any identity is a massive joke - it's essentialist garbage no matter how you spin it. The only logical way to live is without identity. But the precondition for that is the elimination of antagonisms that give rise to identity in the first place, which means not excluding anyone. "Inherent meaning for me and not for thee" isn't going to fly, for fairly obvious reasons.
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Jul 5, 2017 17:06
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Why are there so many new posts
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Jul 5, 2017 17:06
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Uncle Wemus posted:Why are there so many new posts college kids are arguin again
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Jul 5, 2017 17:08
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FaustianQ posted:I'm going to be an idiot and stick my hand into the blender here, but if to live with no identity is bad, but to live with "white" identity is equally as bad (Pen brought up good reasons why), what is the alternative? Until that can be found, the alt right will continue to recruit white people as belonging to any identity and group is preferable to isolation. They will also continue to have a free hand in defining what it means to be white as long as no alternative exists. I and a guy from Maine may both be white men, but I still have way more in common with black and native people from Louisiana and Oklahoma than any drat Yankee. The notion that being American or even being a Dixie has some essential whiteness simply isn't true. Identifying as White is something people tend to fall back on when they're not able to form meaningful relationships with the other people in their community. I'd say that's a natural development in our context, because American capitalism has so radically alienated the individual from any real sense of community in the first place - especially in the suburbs.
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Jul 5, 2017 17:10
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rudatron posted:Thats my starting position. You can disagree with the premise, but don't put words in mouth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exRFQXX3oeg&t=8s
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Jul 5, 2017 17:12
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republicans have been the party of white identity politics since Nixon, and before that the Dixiecrats made it the alpha and omega of their politics. the biggest mistake in looking at the alt right is thinking they are something new, some exciting new demon that the boogeyman of your choice caused. they are not. Hillary Clinton was a Goldwater Girl, our parents knew people who were HUGE into defending apartheid and kicking the welfare queens to the curb, we know a bunch of people out to kill some civilization into those Iraqi savages, and these kids are big into Trump. young conservatives- sexually frustrated, bookish, feeling left behind by their peers, desperate for acceptance but maintaining their tenuous social equilibrium by viciously rejecting those perceived as less than them the second they see the chance- have existed for generations. this is just what the shock troops of white identity politics look like today.
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Jul 5, 2017 17:15
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Ze Pollack posted:this is just what the shock troops of white identity politics look like today. This is the most optimistic thing I've read all week lmao
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Jul 5, 2017 17:19
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Ze Pollack posted:this is just what the shock troops of white identity politics look like today. the fatkorps
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Jul 5, 2017 17:21
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:This is the most optimistic thing I've read all week lmao *extremely the twilight zone guy voice* for your consideration, a world where social media was a thing in 1964, and a young Hillary Rodham is a low-tier youtube personality talking about Based Goldwater
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Jul 5, 2017 17:23
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bill clinton would have def been a pepe in college
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Jul 5, 2017 17:23
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did anyone ever hear the story about how in college bill clinton used to hang outside the library at night and ask girls if he could walk them home
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Jul 5, 2017 17:25
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so maybe he wouldnt be a pepe after all
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Jul 5, 2017 17:25
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the mating rituals of our grandparents were weird and confusing
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Jul 5, 2017 17:26
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it was a simpler time where outright sexual harassment and stalking were just seen as boys being boys
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Jul 5, 2017 17:27
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Al! posted:did anyone ever hear the story about how in college bill clinton used to hang outside the library at night and ask girls if he could walk them home I think on Bill and Hillary's first date they literally crossed a picket line.
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Jul 5, 2017 17:51
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I and a guy from Maine may both be white men, but I still have way more in common with black and native people from Louisiana and Oklahoma than any drat Yankee. The notion that being American or even being a Dixie has some essential whiteness simply isn't true. Identifying as White is something people tend to fall back on when they're not able to form meaningful relationships with the other people in their community. I'd say that's a natural development in our context, because American capitalism has so radically alienated the individual from any real sense of community in the first place - especially in the suburbs. I'm not inherently disagreeing with what you are saying, for me that's how it was when I was in the city, but stuck out here in the rural nowhere, it seems different. There is no real community to coalesce around, whiteness is what the rural white American has for an identity, so impoverished is there local area. Therefore they further correlate being white with being American. I've also seen this elsewhere and I've ended up putting a lot of thought into how to separate the two in someones mind, because from my own experience there is nothing positive about white identity. So basically how do you go about creating a new identity for these people, something universal enough to combat the appeal of the alt right, where they have some refuge from any shame they may feel about what white identity really means?
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Jul 5, 2017 18:00
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I and a guy from Maine may both be white men, but I still have way more in common with black and native people from Louisiana and Oklahoma than any drat Yankee. The notion that being American or even being a Dixie has some essential whiteness simply isn't true. Identifying as White is something people tend to fall back on when they're not able to form meaningful relationships with the other people in their community. I'd say that's a natural development in our context, because American capitalism has so radically alienated the individual from any real sense of community in the first place - especially in the suburbs. TBH I'm not really following what your argument is because I don't have as much background in the subject- would it be fair to sum up the argument as "Whiteness, as an identity, was created and perpetuated in opposition and oppression to other racial identities, therefore it should not be celebrated." with the corollary that "People who currently are identified as White can still identify with other parts of that identity (American, Yankee, Canadian, Texan, etc) assuming that that identity doesn't exclude or oppose others."?
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Jul 5, 2017 18:00
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FaustianQ posted:I'm not inherently disagreeing with what you are saying, for me that's how it was when I was in the city, but stuck out here in the rural nowhere, it seems different. There is no real community to coalesce around, whiteness is what the rural white American has for an identity, so impoverished is there local area. Therefore they further correlate being white with being American. I've also seen this elsewhere and I've ended up putting a lot of thought into how to separate the two in someones mind, because from my own experience there is nothing positive about white identity. So basically how do you go about creating a new identity for these people, something universal enough to combat the appeal of the alt right, where they have some refuge from any shame they may feel about what white identity really means? my dude have you heard the news about this... socialism Class Identity: It Was A Thing, It Will Be Again
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Jul 5, 2017 18:03
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Ze Pollack posted:my dude have you heard the news about this... socialism Are you sure? Talking to rural whites gives me the impression they view opposition to socialism, communalism or syndicalism as a component of their identity. The rejection thereof allows them to identify with rich white people, giving them a warped sense of hope. I don't know how to deal with this personally except to give up (and god do I want to move). Also there is nothing inherent in socialism that is white, it's entirely a human endeavor. This doesn't overcome the inherent problem of being a white person in which your fallback identity is shameful and associated with racial oppression, and you will continue to have backwards slides into neofascism.
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Jul 5, 2017 18:17
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i dunno about all of this identity poo poo, but if something that makes you inherently you makes other people feel like poo poo or treated lesser than you maybe you just kinda suck and should stop celebrating that which makes you suck despite how much MUH HERITAGE it is.
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Jul 5, 2017 18:21
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StashAugustine posted:TBH I'm not really following what your argument is because I don't have as much background in the subject- would it be fair to sum up the argument as "Whiteness, as an identity, was created and perpetuated in opposition and oppression to other racial identities, therefore it should not be celebrated." with the corollary that "People who currently are identified as White can still identify with other parts of that identity (American, Yankee, Canadian, Texan, etc) assuming that that identity doesn't exclude or oppose others."? In a sense it's both. People can identify with more than one group, which begs the question of why anyone should identify with whiteness when it exists solely in a racially supremacist context. One of the criticisms of white supremacy as it exists today, is that it creates a situation where being white is considered the default. The paradox of that though, is if being white is a default position it's also not really a meaningful identity that's worth cultivating. It's only meaningful in the sense of its opposition to all other races realizing equality. I'd also take this a step further and argue that the white race doesn't actually exist, because whites don't display enough group cohesion to be meaningfully considered a "race" of people. Being a member of a race in a social context means having a common cultural goal to realize. A race has no meaning if it lacks a goal to reach. Whites used to pretend that they were of a common race with a goal to civilize the savage races of the Earth - but the world wars made it clear that this was nonsense because whites mass murdered each other when their imperial ambitions came to blows. The white race was always a fiction invented with the explicit purpose of rationalizing colonialism & slavery. All other races as we commonly perceive them are similarly fictional, because they were defined by colonialists with a white supremacist ideology in mind. The only thing that's real and which all of these people have in common, is the historical heritage of imperialism. I'm sorry if this comes off as long winded or if it seems like a derail, but I think it's important to illustrate exactly why the alt-right is wrong and their ideology is garbage at every possible opportunity. The alt-right in that sense can have value, in that it's a discoursive foil which helps us to better define left wing ideology. FaustianQ posted:I'm not inherently disagreeing with what you are saying, for me that's how it was when I was in the city, but stuck out here in the rural nowhere, it seems different. There is no real community to coalesce around, whiteness is what the rural white American has for an identity, so impoverished is there local area. Therefore they further correlate being white with being American. I've also seen this elsewhere and I've ended up putting a lot of thought into how to separate the two in someones mind, because from my own experience there is nothing positive about white identity. So basically how do you go about creating a new identity for these people, something universal enough to combat the appeal of the alt right, where they have some refuge from any shame they may feel about what white identity really means? Well there's always proletarian identity.  Really the point is that there's a ton of things they could identify with that are more meaningful to their lived experiences than simply being white people.
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Jul 5, 2017 18:23
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If we redistributed the wealth, legalized weed and prostitution, expanded extracurricularss, banned contact football, had a functioning space colonization program, injected large amounts of melanin in all future babies so they'd all be the same color, and banned Native American headdresses at music festivals, then all of humanity's problems would instantly vanish, the pepes would get laid, and kek would go back into his hole How hard is that?
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Jul 5, 2017 18:26
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StashAugustine posted:TBH I'm not really following what your argument is because I don't have as much background in the subject- would it be fair to sum up the argument as "Whiteness, as an identity, was created and perpetuated in opposition and oppression to other racial identities, therefore it should not be celebrated." with the corollary that "People who currently are identified as White can still identify with other parts of that identity (American, Yankee, Canadian, Texan, etc) assuming that that identity doesn't exclude or oppose others."? p. much. whiteness as an identity was explicitly formed in order to justify the colonization of and stripping of resources from non-European places. the whole "White Man's Burden" thing. in the us it was explicitly invoked and altered to provide the justification for the continuation of slavery, and then to justify segregation, anti-black codes, Jim Crow, and miscegenation laws. over time it went from just being about the anglo-saxons and ruling class to becoming a supranational identifier that included previously excluded people like the irish, germans, italians, etc, on the basis of the paper bag test and other such nonsense. that's why we have an italian heritage month, but not a white heritage month. we have a black heritage month in the us because as far as it goes there is a black identity in the us, but not so much elsewhere.
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Jul 5, 2017 18:36
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:In a sense it's both. The key word here is could, sadly they don't have a lot of options (rural whites). Literally socialism and the positive infrastructural changes it'd bring to a rural community would help but you get backlash for "citifying" their rural backwater; "poo poo's garbage and that's how we like it". I guess I'm venting how loving hopeless rural white america seems. Just want to say thanks for engaging with me at all Pener, and good post.
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Jul 5, 2017 18:45
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the only good identity for everyone is atom bomb death cultist imo
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Jul 5, 2017 18:50
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FaustianQ posted:The key word here is could, sadly they don't have a lot of options (rural whites). Literally socialism and the positive infrastructural changes it'd bring to a rural community would help but you get backlash for "citifying" their rural backwater; "poo poo's garbage and that's how we like it". I guess I'm venting how loving hopeless rural white america seems. Hopeless as it might seem, people are always making progress - and we're living in an age where common cultural interaction is more prevalent than ever. Society is being slowly but surely flattened, and that's the primary animus for all these reactionary sentiments. They know that their ways of life are dying, and that their grip on privilege is slipping away. The goal of any socialist agenda is to offer them a real way out that will elevate all peoples, whereas liberals are content to simply let them die and allow those reactionary impulses to fester to necrosis.
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Jul 5, 2017 18:55
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backlash is part and parcel of identity politics. it's part of why it in and of itself, bereft of any economic ties, is doomed, because there will always be some new distinction to get tribal and exclusive about. but new identities form through shared experiences. wish I remember who said it, but the line was something like "if you get five working class white people together in a room talking about their jobs, they will independently invent socialism within ten minutes." there has been a phenomenal top-down effort to get these people to consider socialism an enemy, but it can be fought from the bottom up. it turns out all but the most virulent racists are capable of shutting up about the darkies for ten seconds if there's a raise and a middle finger to their fat gently caress manager in the cards. it wasn't imposed overnight, and it won't be broken overnight, but it was done before and it will be done again.
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Jul 5, 2017 18:57
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A lot of Pepes have socialist leanings, the problem is they are also anti-semites and racists who want a white ethnostate.
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Jul 5, 2017 19:02
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rural America wants to die
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Jul 5, 2017 19:04
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Ze Pollack posted:it wasn't imposed overnight, and it won't be broken overnight, but it was done before and it will be done again. The triumph of labor in America was the cultivation of class solidarity and the inclusion of non-whites into labor unions. Some unions achieved this even in the South at the height of Jim Crow, and there was an overwhelming effort to suppress those developments like you said. Did it end racism? No, but it was leaps and bounds of progress which set the ground work for us all to become far less racist ideologically, even if a lot of us retain racist impulses from cultural indoctrination. Where the alt-right breaks with the rest of society is their denial that racism is wrong, and an unapologetic embrace of supremacy and hierarchy. Whether they're white supremacists, or pro-aristocracy, or whatever have you. Even conservatives will at least pay lip service to the leveling social ideology of America.
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Jul 5, 2017 19:08
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https://twitter.com/jimpjorps/statu...er%3D163%23pti3
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Jul 5, 2017 19:15
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how the guy get punched in the eye from behind?
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Jul 5, 2017 19:21
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Apropos of nothing I want to say that there was a time in my life where I was 100% primed to become a regressive shitstain, and perhaps the only reason I didn't is because those movements didn't exist during those particularly formative years. Or they did, but they were different. Mainstream conservatism isn't as sexy as the "dark enlightenment" or the "alt-right". I was poor, white, 14, and didn't have cable. I liked to draw but hated silence so i filled the noise with radio, and the noise was whiter and less distracting when it was just talk, and the only talk on the radio was Hannity, Limbaugh, Ingrahm, Savage, etc. I was an anti-social weirdo (still am but I cope with it better), so these voices and my parents were the only regular human contact I had, and my parents never gave much of a poo poo about politics or how to talk about it with a kid. Eventually we'd get cable and I headed straight to Fox News - it's the same guys on the radio but I can see them now. Listening for the sake of white noise became listening for listening sake, I had a certain affection for these people who told me that Bush was a good President, Iraq was a good war, welfare moochers were why me and my family was poor, so on and so forth. I spent way too much time on the internet at this time on anime forums and looking up edgy poo poo to shock my peers - LaVeyan Satanism was my go-to, so the seeds of "gently caress you got mine" and "do what thou wilt" was fully planted in my young mind. And it occurs to me, as I watch people like Davis Aurini or Molyneux, that if I encountered these people on the internet at the time, in their present form, I'd be transfixed. Adult me can see the crazy in the whites of Molyneux's eyes or how sad it is for Aurini to posture with a skull while sipping apple juice, but teenage me would have been caught hook, line, and sinker by the narrative these people weave about themselves and the world, and most importantly, how you can be elevated by taking that "red pill". Because that's all it ever was, a reaction to my liberal peers and what I perceived as a heightened influence of progressive politics in society. Contrarianism appeals to the lovely 14 year old in people that wants to be the smartest guy in the room without doing any of the work - adopt a set of beliefs in opposition to the mainstream and you're there without lifting a finger. Getting out of that headspace was a long process that lasted til my 20's, and spanned being a republican, a Satanist, an Objectivist, an ancap, a nihilist, and finally arriving at basic-rear end socialist-leaning Berniecrat. I would not have arrived here without a lot of shame. Not patience. Just straight up getting sick of being owned in arguments that shame forced me to realize were faulty. Ironically ego was enough to light a fire under my butt and force me into having any degree of perspective.
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Jul 5, 2017 19:31
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Deified Data posted:lots of good Yeah, being raised uber christian conservative pastor in training kinda let me duck out on that, by the time i hit the rebel phase I was about as anti-conservative as they come and thankfully MRA and all that poo poo didnt even show up on the radar until i was well into my 30s
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Jul 5, 2017 19:35
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Race Realists posted:thats the same dude who had a racist meltdown after election day.  Are you familiar with the rhetorical concept of ethos?
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