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temple posted:The alien we see in Alien was identical to the David's creations and not like Prometheus aliens. Even if we go with the premise that they're identical(they aren't), the mural in Prometheus suggests that there is an ideal. An outcome of the mutations that the Engineers strive for, and it looks a lot like a classic xeno. So the fact that David produced one after years of experimentation does not mean they never existed before he came along. temple posted:David's world predates Alien's setting. Does it?
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Jul 6, 2017 19:17
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Basebf555 posted:Does it? https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/10825/when-in-which-year-is-alien-set
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Jul 6, 2017 19:26
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Basebf555 posted:the mural in Prometheus suggests that there is an ideal. An outcome of the mutations that the Engineers strive for, and it looks a lot like a classic xeno. No, it doesn't. 
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Jul 6, 2017 19:26
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wyoming posted:No, it doesn't. I know we look at this mural alot, but what are the chances are that the setting guys just used a bunch of Giger production art from Alien as a call-out. You know, like how the Alien skull showed up in Predator, but it was just meant as a shout-out and not to imply everything was connected? Like how you can technically link every 80s sci-fi movie into one universe because of how much they called each other out?
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Jul 6, 2017 19:29
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I'm not sure that mural represents some kind of ideal or desired end product. It could just be, you know, a piece of art about the mutagen. Like "here's some stuff the mutagen tends to do".
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Jul 6, 2017 19:31
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If I'm reading that correctly(forgive me the format of the site made my eyes bleed), but that's referring to what year Alien is set, not how old the derelict ship on LV-426 is. For all we know, it's already there collecting dust while David's getting into all his misadventures. Re: the mural, what's clear is that the xeno is revered(or possibly feared) in some way. It's important. A theory that I'm throwing out there is that the Engineers look at it as an ideal to strive for, but that's just one idea. The point is that the mural shows that the Engineers are aware of the possibility of the xenomorph and have seen it before in some context.
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Jul 6, 2017 19:34
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I would like to reiterate how awesome it is that David created the ultimate bioweapon against humanity.
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Jul 6, 2017 19:40
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Basebf555 posted:If I'm reading that correctly(forgive me the format of the site made my eyes bleed), but that's referring to what year Alien is set, not how old the derelict ship on LV-426 is. For all we know, it's already there collecting dust while David's getting into all his misadventures.
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Jul 6, 2017 19:40
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temple posted:That's not the original point of contention. The issue was "there is no evidence that David's xenomorphs are related to Alien's xenomorphs". That's not the contention, that's what you keep bringing up and its irrelevant. The original point of contention is that the mystique of the xenomorph is lessened by these new films, because it explains too much about the monster's origins. The truth is we know very little about the actual origins of the xenomorph, and what we do know only begs more questions. So I don't agree that the mystique has been effected at all. David's xenos are absolutely related to Alien's, via the black goo. David is not the father of all xenos though, which is what people are (wrongly)complaining about.
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Jul 6, 2017 19:43
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temple posted:The alien we see in Alien was identical to the David's creations Except it isn't. The Alien in Covenant is super thin and looks like it's made of frail muscles, it lacks nearly all of the biomechanical design that made the original Alien so noticeably Giger. I have both figures from NECA and they're pretty wildly different, though you don't need the toys in order to see it.
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Jul 6, 2017 19:44
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Basebf555 posted:David's xenos are absolutely related to Alien's, via the black goo. .
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Jul 6, 2017 19:45
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Covok posted:I know we look at this mural alot, but what are the chances are that the setting guys just used a bunch of Giger production art from Alien as a call-out. You know, like how the Alien skull showed up in Predator, but it was just meant as a shout-out and not to imply everything was connected? Like how you can technically link every 80s sci-fi movie into one universe because of how much they called each other out? Yeah, someone early pointed out there's an alien holding an egg in one of the murals, but you literally only see a corner of it as it melts in the movie. That main mural has Giger's orignal shrimp looking original facehugger design.  Just fun little details to catch that you wouldn't normally see while watching the movie. Basebf555 posted:Re: the mural, what's clear is that the xeno is revered(or possibly feared) in some way. It's important. A theory that I'm throwing out there is that the Engineers look at it as an ideal to strive for, but that's just one idea. The point is that the mural shows that the Engineers are aware of the possibility of the xenomorph and have seen it before in some context. Yeah, I agree the mural has some reverence, either as a warning or worship, I'm just saying, it's pointy head makes it more Deacon-like than the penis head in Alien. And the xeno snapping at the monitor goes well with David not as knowing as much as he thought, or being in control anyway.
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Jul 6, 2017 19:45
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wyoming posted:And the xeno snapping at the monitor goes well with David not as knowing as much as he thought, or being in control anyway. Maybe the Xeno just hates graven images of its god, ever think of that?
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Jul 6, 2017 19:46
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Snak posted:Maybe the Xeno just hates graven images of its god, ever think of that? Don't worship TV is a pretty good message.
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Jul 6, 2017 19:47
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wyoming posted:Yeah, someone early pointed out there's an alien holding an egg in one of the murals, but you literally only see a corner of it as it melts in the movie. Yeah, I noticed that just now when looking at it and it's one of the reasons I went "does this mural matter because it probably doesn't." Like, when I saw that, I realized it was just an easter egg wall for fans and probably didn't mean much for the overall plot. sometimes, I do think fans look too into things and forget that shout-outs exist without necessarily meaning anything. Like the one-off 4th wall joke in a comedy story does not mean the character is Deadpool, for example.
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Jul 6, 2017 19:50
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If Scott does the movie he wants next, there's gonna be a big battle between David and the Space Jockies, which might result in either the Jockey stealing the Alien to use on other planets, or it could be David in the chair. That ship is going to crash in this series and David is the one that made the aliens, yo.
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Jul 6, 2017 19:50
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CelticPredator posted:If Scott does the movie he wants next, there's gonna be a big battle between David and the Space Jockies, which might result in either the Jockey stealing the Alien to use on other planets, or it could be David in the chair. Yeah, I pretty much agree with this. It also loops back to "the vast uncaring evil of the unknown was FROM WITHIN OURSELVES ALL ALONG" Which I am fine with.
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Jul 6, 2017 19:52
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I just don't get why the aliens being unknown made them scary. I thought it was all the rape and murder they do? Ps tho, the alien has never scared me.
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Jul 6, 2017 19:53
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CelticPredator posted:If Scott does the movie he wants next, there's gonna be a big battle between David and the Space Jockies, which might result in either the Jockey stealing the Alien to use on other planets, or it could be David in the chair. Totally a possibility, and I wouldn't be that surprised if that's the route Scott takes. It's just not a given at this point, there are other ways he could take it.
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Jul 6, 2017 19:54
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CelticPredator posted:Ps tho, the alien has never scared me. Yeah, if anything, it's alluring.
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Jul 6, 2017 19:55
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CelticPredator posted:I just don't get why the aliens being unknown made them scary. I thought it was all the rape and murder they do? Sir Kodiak posted:Yeah, if anything, it's alluring. Ripley: How do we kill it, Ash? There's gotta be a way of killing it. How? How do we do it? Ash: You can't. Parker: That's bullshit. Ash: You still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? Perfect organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility. Lambert: You admire it. Ash: I admire its purity. A survivor... unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality. Parker: Look, I am... I've heard enough of this, and I'm asking you to pull the plug. [Ripley goes to disconnect Ash, who interrupts] Ash: Last word. Ripley: What? Ash: I can't lie to you about your chances, but... you have my sympathies. temple fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Jul 6, 2017 |
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Jul 6, 2017 20:00
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Yeah people explained it but I just don't get it. The thing still horrifically murders people and can completely destroy an entire planet with just one single creature.
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Jul 6, 2017 20:03
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When an argument starts with "a sequel ruins the original" that just kind of tells me that the person making it can't judge things on their own merits as separate things.
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Jul 6, 2017 20:03
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CelticPredator posted:Yeah people explained it but I just don't get it. It doesn't scare you, so you wouldn't get it. Its like wondering why people fear the dark.
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Jul 6, 2017 20:05
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If anything, I can kinda get the argument that the Space Jockey, not the xenomorphs, are weakened by Prometheus and Covenant. The xenomorph had been thoroughly neutered by sequels long before Prometheus, but the Space Jockey had always remained a template for how to do existential/cosmic horror and dread. We know a lot more about the Space Jockey from the new films than we've learned about the xenos. But in the end, the Space Jockey is in Alien for all of 3 minutes. Preserving it completely untouched by sequels isn't really something I'm that concerned with.
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Jul 6, 2017 20:07
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What if a person came out of the dark and attacked you? That person came from a mother, so you know it's origins. Does that make it less scary?
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Jul 6, 2017 20:08
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CelticPredator posted:What if a person came out of the dark and attacked you? If you know it's a person, you have a whole list of ways to fight back against the attack that would come immediately to mind. But if its some nightmare creature with no obvious connection to our world? What can you do but run or die? Of course in space there's no where to run so...
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Jul 6, 2017 20:09
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Basebf555 posted:If you know it's a person, you have a whole list of ways to fight back against the attack that would come immediately to mind. But if its some nightmare creature with no obvious connection to our world? What can you do but run or die? Of course in space there's no where to run so... So blast it out the airlock, like at the end of Alien. Ripley survived the first movie. If you watched it the whole way through you know they're not unbeatable.
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Jul 6, 2017 20:12
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Snak posted:When an argument starts with "a sequel ruins the original" that just kind of tells me that the person making it can't judge things on their own merits as separate things. If you actually watch the video he's saying it "can" ruin the original, and it's bad when it does so. Then he uses the Exorcist II as an example and explains specifically why it ruins the first one. He then makes a comparison between Exorcist II and Prometheus/Covenant, feeling that they undermine the originals in a similar way.
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Jul 6, 2017 20:18
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Meridian posted:If you actually watch the video he's saying it "can" ruin the original, and it's bad when it does so. Then he uses the Exorcist II as an example and explains specifically why it ruins the first one. He then makes a comparison between Exorcist II and Prometheus/Covenant, feeling that they undermine the originals in a similar way. Right, but a sequel can't actually ruin the original, even if completely changes its premise. They are two separate things, and the idea that they together comprise a single work of art which is now compromised is entirely a construct that has been made up by the viewer's attachment to franchise continuity. If a sequel changes the premise of the original in a way that is "stupid" that is a flaw with the sequel and in no way affects the original. It only affects your perception of it if you unable to separate distinct entities in your mind.
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Jul 6, 2017 20:20
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Sir Kodiak posted:So blast it out the airlock, like at the end of Alien. Sure seemed like it was unbeatable for a while there though. That's such a big part of what makes Alien so effective, at every stage right up to the end the crew is just more and more hosed with no end in sight. Part of enjoying these films over and over again is putting yourself into the mindset of a first time viewer, at least as much as you can. Also, The Exorcist II is a very good movie.
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Jul 6, 2017 20:21
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Snak posted:Right, but a sequel can't actually ruin the original, even if completely changes its premise. They are two separate things, and the idea that they together comprise a single work of art which is now compromised is entirely a construct that has been made up by the viewer's attachment to franchise continuity. Oh sure, I get you. I agree with that. I think that's the point. "Can't dig on the prequel/sequel because it fucks up X about the original which is what I enjoyed about it in the first place." At least this particular guy isn't saying that the first Exorcist now sucks because of the existence of II, and I don't think anyone here is saying that about Alien(s).
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Jul 6, 2017 20:23
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CelticPredator posted:What if a person came out of the dark and attacked you? Religion would be more appropriate then. Religion illicits both fear and awe in people, and is also not tangible but idealogical, so it's roots of origin will forever be hidden in the hearts of man.
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Jul 6, 2017 20:23
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Meridian posted:Oh sure, I get you. I agree with that. I think that's the point. "Can't dig on the prequel/sequel because it fucks up X about the original which is what I enjoyed about it in the first place." At least this particular guy isn't saying that the first Exorcist now sucks because of the existence of II, and I don't think anyone here is saying that about Alien(s). Okay. I guess I don't really get what people want out of an Alien sequel, then. You can't have something be mysterious and unknown forever. Because. Like. You already saw it. You either explore it more in the sequels, or you remake the same movie. And what I like about Prometheus (which I don't like) and Covenant (which I do like), is that it actually reinvents the alienness of the Xeno by introducing the black goo ,which is even more alien and terrifying than the Xeno ever was. At the end of the day, the Xeno is a gross rape monster that kills people. The black good is an unknowable magic elixir not meant for humans to meddle with.
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Jul 6, 2017 20:27
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Snak posted:Okay. I haven't seen Covenant yet, and my problems with Prometheus don't have anything to do with the Alien at all, so I don't really have an opinion. I'm enjoying everyone's takes on it though.
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Jul 6, 2017 20:29
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Meridian posted:I haven't seen Covenant yet, and my problems with Prometheus don't have anything to do with the Alien at all, so I don't really have an opinion. I'm enjoying everyone's takes on it though. You seem like a chill person. I needed that. I've been real high strung all day 
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Jul 6, 2017 20:30
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Snak posted:Okay. I think the best description of what people want from Alien sequels is that they want adaptation, no repetition. I mean, Aliens is basically the template for that, and not just in this franchise, in film as a whole. Cameron was able to use the same monster, but give it a different twist that was also scary, but in a different way. There's always going to be turbo-nerds who hate any kind of change AND will also poo poo on a sequel for being a rehash, but you can't make movies with idiots like that in mind. At least I'm glad Ridley Scott doesn't.
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Jul 6, 2017 20:32
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Snak posted:You seem like a chill person. I figured if I'm not posting like a smug rear end in a top hat and focusing on the opposite of whatever point someone was trying to get across, then I'm not doing it right. 
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Jul 6, 2017 20:33
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Basebf555 posted:I think the best description of what people want from Alien sequels is that they want adaptation, no repetition. I mean, Aliens is basically the template for that, and not just in this franchise, in film as a whole. Cameron was able to use the same monster, but give it a different twist that was also scary, but in a different way. My hot take is that the black goo and weird parasite creatures mixed in with the Engineers plot is totally fine and cool and good and doesn't need The Alien at all. I think it'd probably be better if it didn't have it because as the dude in the video above was saying, part of what made Alien great is that it's just this monstrous, unknowable death machine. While yes, you can say "it still is," sure, but we didn't need to know where it came from really. The implication that the black goo/engineers/Aliens are connected is enough. Both stories I think would be stronger standing alone. That said, I'm always down for watching a movie with Aliens ripping people up, so I'm not going to get too bent out of shape about it. Theotus fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Jul 6, 2017 |
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Jul 6, 2017 20:36
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Basebf555 posted:Sure seemed like it was unbeatable for a while there though. That's such a big part of what makes Alien so effective, at every stage right up to the end the crew is just more and more hosed with no end in sight. I don't disagree. My point is that this is a trick you can only pull once with a monster (unless it wins at the end). No sequel is going to be able to recapture it. Basebf555 posted:I think the best description of what people want from Alien sequels is that they want adaptation, no repetition. I mean, Aliens is basically the template for that, and not just in this franchise, in film as a whole. Cameron was able to use the same monster, but give it a different twist that was also scary, but in a different way. Because even Aliens doesn't make the monster unbeatable. Instead it introduces a bunch of them and makes you wonder if you can beat all of them, even if any one can be killed. And that's a kind of scary you can easily apply to – as has been done many times – swarms of human beings. From that perspective, Black Hawk Down is Ridley Scott's take on Aliens.
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Jul 6, 2017 20:41
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