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I assume that if he becomes a true god, he can make his own, but better.
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Jul 6, 2017 01:48
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First Griffith would have to get bored of his Kingdom and figure out what would be a grander ideal to dream of, which might be to spread Falconia across the actual globe. Like physical conquering and further intigration of the planes and the world spiral tree. Afterall, what good is a kingdom if its just one city?
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Jul 6, 2017 02:05
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Being the King of Kings is better than being a king. People figured that out thousands of years ago.
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Jul 6, 2017 02:22
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I'm hoping that should Casca not want Guts to run and hide (like she wanted him to do when fighting Wyald) and chooses to give Griffith a good stabbing, they return to find that Falconia has been raided by Silat and friends, whom have been fully upgraded by the Tech-Priest Rickert and engaged in full blown combat with the apostles. Allowing Rickert to escape will somehow be part of Griffith's plan to eradicate the remainder of those who oppose him and maybe there, amidst the carnage where Guts and Casca stand before him, Griffith will finally decide where Guts will die.
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Jul 6, 2017 05:40
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EmmyOk posted:I think he serves narrative purpose but I think his really bad parts could be excised really easily and still have him feature? Am I mistaken? Going back a few pages, but I fully agree that a tamer version of Wyald not only could, but should, be included at least in adaptations that start with the Golden Age. My first contact with Berserk were the movies, knowing nothing about the series beforehand, and my reaction to the eclipse was basically "wait what?". Without Wyald the overtly supernatural aspects aren't set up very well(iirc the movies only have Zodd in the second one and a brief shot of the snake apostle in the third one). The shock and horror of the eclipse was kinda lost on me because I was trying to figure out what the hell was happening. So while Wyald is gross and in incredibly poor taste, you need something like him to set up all the craziness that's going to happen.
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Jul 6, 2017 11:54
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The supernatural elements are poorly foreshadowed, except for that minor incident in which Griffith and Guts ran afoul of an 8 foot tall ogre who turned into a 20 foot chimera and prophesized that Griffith would destroy them all
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Jul 6, 2017 15:35
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Rodyle posted:The supernatural elements are poorly foreshadowed, except for that minor incident in which Griffith and Guts ran afoul of an 8 foot tall ogre who turned into a 20 foot chimera and prophesized that Griffith would destroy them all You mean Wyald? Who wasn't in the movies?
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Jul 6, 2017 15:40
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RatHat posted:You mean Wyald? Who wasn't in the movies? He means Zodd.
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Jul 6, 2017 15:42
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Minor Berserk Character Mercenary Zodd
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Jul 6, 2017 15:49
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I'm only making my way through the Conviction Arc after taking a long break after reading Golden Age, but there was also the part where the red egg around Griffith's neck keeps opening it's eyes, a giant skeleton man came out of the woods, the time we saw a huge pit of corpses with the same brand on their head, and the part where a blob of small demons visited Griffith in his cell, dragged into him into the Escher Dimension and a giant brain man told him That We Will Meet Soon, Oh Prince Of Longing, and almost the entire Band of the Hawk gets devoured by like four Apostles before the Skull Knight stops them. Wyald is kinda the LEAST interesting or illuminating supernatural event, he sucks and just screams about his dick the entire time, I was stoked they left him out of the movies. I actually really enjoyed the Golden Age movies, and they acted as a good refresher for Golden Age after I took a break, but I wouldn't recommend anyone watch it as their first viewing tho. The CGI pretty much finds it's footing after the first movie and everything after they break out Griffith, but before the Eclipse has this oppressive anxiety and tension that super sucks, but is also cool to watch, I dunno I recommend em. also the effect they use for the Behelit screaming to start the Eclipse is kinda stupid but also kinda rules anyway hey guys hi, hows it going
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Jul 6, 2017 15:53
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I mean Griffith's was the same helmet as the Phantom of the Paradise, so I'd figure some weird rear end poo poo is gonna go down even if there were 0 supernatural occurrences before the eclipse.
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Jul 6, 2017 15:55
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The Zodd fight scene was in the second movie and they don't really expand on him. Griffith's demon jail visitation could easily be interpreted as the hallucinations of a dude who's been horribly tortured for a long time. The whole "prince of longing" thing was just confusing. Wyald is poorly written and pretty much the least interesting apostle, but if you skip the Black Swordsman stuff he is there to make it absolutely clear that the supernatural stuff is 1) not just going to be a one off thing like Zodd and 2) horrifying. It's something of a jump from "immortal demon warrior who trolls battlefields to test himself" to "everyone is in death rape dimension now". It could be that I'm just bad at watching things, but that was the reaction I had during the movies. Still enjoyed them enough to check out the manga even though I'm really not a comic book person in general, so they did their job.
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Jul 6, 2017 16:10
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Without the Black Swordsman arc to set things up, you don't go through the Golden Age knowing that Griffith is going to use the behilit to summon the four angels and offer at least Guts as a sacrifice. Thanks to that, the events of the Eclipse seem random as gently caress. I thought Berserk was just an okay series until I actually picked up the manga and realized that there's actually a coherent narrative
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Jul 6, 2017 17:01
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U-DO Burger posted:Without the Black Swordsman arc to set things up, you don't go through the Golden Age knowing that Griffith is going to use the behilit to summon the four angels and offer at least Guts as a sacrifice. Thanks to that, the events of the Eclipse seem random as gently caress. I thought Berserk was just an okay series until I actually picked up the manga and realized that there's actually a coherent narrative What? Watching things play out chronologically is not in any way random as gently caress. You don't need to know the spoiled ending to be able to follow the golden arc story, at all? And the original black swordsman arc does not really make it clear what happened in the eclipse until after the eclipse arc is shown, right? I don't remember guts suddenly saying "Griffith sacrificed everybody to the four angels to become a god" during the black swordsman arc? Maybe he mentioned "GRIFFITH!!!!!" but that's about it. How are you so bad at watching anime / reading manga you didn't think berserk was coherent? You're one of those guys who has to ask questions during movies huh...
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Jul 6, 2017 18:38
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Pretty sure what they're saying that NOT watching things chronologically is confusing, no adaption of Berserk shows the full Black Swordsman arc. The Black Swordsman arc also shows you very well what might happen in the Eclipse because that's what the entire Count arc is about. The Behelit gets activated and the Count is asked to sacrifice his daughter and we're told what he did before. So when you see Griffith crouched in the lake, holding the Behelit as blood drips down his arm, you have a pretty good idea of what's about to happen if you've read the manga. If not, then well I guess things can seem like they're not following any previously established rules. Because they aren't, the rules weren't established before. bloom posted:The Zodd fight scene was in the second movie and they don't really expand on him. Griffith's demon jail visitation could easily be interpreted as the hallucinations of a dude who's been horribly tortured for a long time. The whole "prince of longing" thing was just confusing. Wyald is poorly written and pretty much the least interesting apostle, but if you skip the Black Swordsman stuff he is there to make it absolutely clear that the supernatural stuff is 1) not just going to be a one off thing like Zodd and 2) horrifying. It's something of a jump from "immortal demon warrior who trolls battlefields to test himself" to "everyone is in death rape dimension now". Expect My Mom fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Jul 6, 2017 |
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Jul 6, 2017 18:51
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Moltrey posted:So when you see Griffith crouched in the lake, holding the Behelit as blood drips down his arm, you have a pretty good idea of what's about to happen if you've read the manga. If not, then well I guess things can seem like they're not following any previously established rules. Because they aren't, the rules weren't established before. I mean, the behelit is a deus ex machina however you look at it. Or, diabolus ex machina? But ultimately its Griffith's decision, and his reason for that decision is fully supported by the Golden Age Arc. I don't think you need to have seen an apostle make a sacrifice for the golden age to work, although it does build drama to have that in the back of your head, sure.
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Jul 6, 2017 18:54
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The first three volumes of Berserk tell you what a Behilit it, shows you how it works, what activates it, and that it can turn people into demons. It also tells you what the brand of sacrifice is, how it is engraved on someone, and that Griffith is responsible for Guts's brand. It's really good at setting the stage for the Golden Age. The anime tells you that Guts is mad at someone named Griffith. It sucks at setting the stage for the Golden Age.
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Jul 6, 2017 19:00
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Yeah, you totally don't need it, it's just more convenient for the viewer. The drama it does build tho, is kinda insane. For maybe 30 minutes in the film, you see Griffith just absolutely broken and almost no one but Guts knows what to do. The film doesn't show him dreaming of a better, but simpler life, but Griffith crashing the carriage, looking at his arm about to snap off and then holding his neck to the branch is still real rough to watch. And then he pulls the Behelit out of the water, and you've seen all this before. Having no knowledge or memory of what that thing can do just kinda undersells the entire thing, all it does in the movie is scream and and suddenly we're in Face Land.
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Jul 6, 2017 19:00
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U-DO Burger posted:The first three volumes of Berserk tell you what a Behilit it, shows you how it works, what activates it, and that it can turn people into demons. It also tells you what the brand of sacrifice is, how it is engraved on someone, and that Griffith is responsible for Guts's brand. It's really good at setting the stage for the Golden Age. Some amount of mystery is a fun thing and I enjoy putting pieces together not having all of them spelled out for me. The movie, if you're watching it first not having read the manga, doesn't need the stage set, it stands on its own. Griffith being responsible for guts' brand is effectively a spoiler to the climax of the movie. You don't need a spoiler to enjoy the story, on the contrary it can be more fun to not know what is going to happen. It works if you already know the plot, but it also works if you don't. Moltrey posted:Yeah, you totally don't need it, it's just more convenient for the viewer. The drama it does build tho, is kinda insane. For maybe 30 minutes in the film, you see Griffith just absolutely broken and almost no one but Guts knows what to do. The film doesn't show him dreaming of a better, but simpler life, but Griffith crashing the carriage, looking at his arm about to snap off and then holding his neck to the branch is still real rough to watch. And then he pulls the Behelit out of the water, and you've seen all this before. I think the same drama still builds; its obvious that something is going to happen. Maybe you forget the behelit exists and its a surprise when it comes back, or maybe you remember it. You don't know what its going to do; but its not hard to imagine that its a thing. And you're told cryptic hints at what its purpose is, which builds the mystery and the desire to see the answer.
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Jul 6, 2017 19:05
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I think Wyald is really important. The eclipse is absolutely too crazy to go into without Wyald's completely ridiculous monster design as a warmup. I also think Skull Knight is very important, and my favorite. Otherwise, you're left with only Zodd who just looks like a minotaur, not an eldritch abomination. It's hardly more magical than the plain-looking pouch of fairy dust. The old anime never got the slug apostle, but at least it had the snake apostle. That's a pretty good bit of foreshadowing if you can remember it from the first episode until the very last episode.
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Jul 7, 2017 00:31
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I actually like how the anime minimizes the abominations until the eclipse. It puts the audience in the same mindset as the Band of the Hawk: confusion and terror at suddenly encountering something they completely unprepared for.
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Jul 7, 2017 00:57
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I had the opposite reaction. The Eclipse was so unlike anything else that I felt no terror, just plain confusion. I watched the anime first, and I didn't realize it was based on a manga. We spent like 95% of the show seeing stuff that wasn't supernatural in any way. The supernatural stuff was so tangential to the plot that it seemed almost pointless, like the show would have been better had the supernatural elements been excised altogether, including the first episode. Then I read the manga like a decade later and discovered that hey, the story's actually good and makes sense. Who knew?
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Jul 7, 2017 01:08
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I think Wyald is important, but you can just eschew the gross stuff pretty easily. Unsurprisingly, Berserk musou does not feature Wyald's giant dick even though he's a playable character, and maintains his place in the story. Just a giant yeti with a mouth in his chest is weird enough
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Jul 7, 2017 01:35
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PhantomOfTheCopier posted:Soooo, when the hiatus is over we're back to the Falconia/Rickert story line? rickert will return with a manly beard and the best mecha suit
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Jul 7, 2017 04:23
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I kind of wish Miura would retcon the opening couple of pages of Berserk where Guts fucks the demon, considering how everything shakes out.
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Jul 7, 2017 07:59
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U-DO Burger posted:I had the opposite reaction. The Eclipse was so unlike anything else that I felt no terror, just plain confusion. I watched the anime first, and I didn't realize it was based on a manga. We spent like 95% of the show seeing stuff that wasn't supernatural in any way. The supernatural stuff was so tangential to the plot that it seemed almost pointless, like the show would have been better had the supernatural elements been excised altogether, including the first episode. Then I read the manga like a decade later and discovered that hey, the story's actually good and makes sense. Who knew? I watched the anime first and thought the Eclipse was done perfectly, any more foreshadowing would have lessened the impact also lol if you couldn't follow it and thought it was confusing.
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Jul 7, 2017 08:19
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Very late to the party but I really don't see Guts setting out to turn the world back into non magical mode. Hisvmotives were always personal, be it revenge, friendship or guilt. He never cared about Midland, Kushan in the aggregate. If I'd had to guess I'd say the next step is the apostles attacking Elfheim just as they did the witch.
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Jul 7, 2017 08:36
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Josuke Higashikata posted:I kind of wish Miura would retcon the opening couple of pages of Berserk where Guts fucks the demon, considering how everything shakes out. I wonder if he's ever thought about doing that. Then sighed and looked at his computer knowing how many nerds would get really angry about it and deciding not to bother. Then he goes on another hiatus instead.
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Jul 7, 2017 14:11
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Josuke Higashikata posted:I kind of wish Miura would retcon the opening couple of pages of Berserk where Guts fucks the demon, considering how everything shakes out. Miura can go back and remove Puck. 
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Jul 7, 2017 23:28
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PhantomOfTheCopier posted:The fact that it works so well is really quite amazing (in that Miura may not have completely established the future part of the story). Guts doesn't use sex for power until he learns the trick from Femto. If anything needs amended, he can go add a little thought bubble where Guts imagines that he's raping Griffith in that scene, and dreams that he actually managed to get his hands around Femto's throat during the Eclipse.  PhantomOfTheCopier posted:Miura can go back and remove Puck.
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Jul 8, 2017 04:03
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Josuke Higashikata posted:I kind of wish Miura would retcon the opening couple of pages of Berserk where Guts fucks the demon, considering how everything shakes out. Sometimes you just have to revenge gently caress a demon to death.
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Jul 8, 2017 04:35
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Yeah, Guts loving the apostletute in the first chapter doesn't really fit with his characterization at all. In general those first few chapters feel very off-tone from the later stuff, though it does quickly shape up to be the Berserk we know and love. I'd guess Miura didn't know what he was gonna do with the comic at the time.
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Jul 8, 2017 04:40
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That opening is just a reference to the first Arnie Conan movie anyway.
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Jul 8, 2017 04:42
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guts doing sex with a fake demon lady clashes with the really sweet moment where he reveals that, due to his past trauma with Donovan, he can't bear physical proximity to another person except for with a really special lady, one time before they ever fell in love he went kind of nuts and choked her viciously though which made it a little weird
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Jul 8, 2017 04:54
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I was going to ask people stop quoting Copier, but it's actually pretty entertaining to only see the stuff that breaks the creepiness threshold. Also, I bought the new Berserk game based on the good word in this thread and it's pretty bad so far. Animations/UI feel like a PS2/vita game and the engine/combat /systems/loot is terrible, even for a Musou game. I haven't left the Golden age yet, so I'm hoping it gets better when you fight big monsters instead of tiny knights that feel like they have no weight.
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Jul 8, 2017 06:25
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rapeface posted:I was going to ask people stop quoting Copier, but it's actually pretty entertaining to only see the stuff that breaks the creepiness threshold.
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Jul 8, 2017 07:01
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So way back before the Golden Age the slug count summons the Godhand while already an apostle. If he had sacrificed his daughter would he be a double apostle or what? Is that how some of the apostles in Griffith's army got so strong?
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Jul 8, 2017 10:28
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Genocyber posted:I'd guess Miura didn't know what he was gonna do with the comic at the time. I think Miura knew Exactly What He Was Going To Do even if some of his readers don't seem to understand after three hundred chapters. Surely it was refined and expanded as he went (durr wonder how writing works), but most of the themes are in Black Swordsman to warn you off.
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Jul 8, 2017 10:54
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Some of the early parts feel a bit out of place but Guts being an rear end in a top hat isn't one of them. It's what happens when you're alone for so long, with any people who get close to you getting brutally killed.
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Jul 8, 2017 11:07
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Miura has explicitly stated in interviews that he made the manga up as he went along. He made the god hand up after having drawn a few chapters. He decided Guts needed someone to be angry at so he made him angry at Griffith before knowing who Griffith was or what their vendetta was. When doing the Count arc he had not yet had the idea for the band of the hawk. The only thing he knew early on was that the driving theme for the manga was going to be Anger. The demon baby appears in the first arc with Count Serpent, but at that point it was not a demon baby. Later, after creating the first few prototype chapters and tying it all together, he was able to craft magic and have it all fall beautifully in place. Miura has a lot of trust in his ability to make things up as he goes and have it turn out good in the end. TBH i think this makes the writing more impressive than if the started off with a master plan.
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