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jng2058 posted:Is that a Tyrannid thing? Because I don't see Heavy Weapons being unable to Overwatch in either the rules for Heavy Weapons or Overwatch.
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Jul 7, 2017 02:43
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:It would double their efficiency, since the calculations are assuming a single shot at distance greater than half the range of the weapon. So for ranges greater than 12" the Intercessors would be better, but within 12" the Tactical Marines are now better (since their efficiency doubles due to RF). Huh. It wouldn't make them that more efficient than most other models, even, judging by that logic. Assault 2 wouldn't even make them more efficient at killing than Guardsmen or Orks at range, although Rapid Fire 2 would probably make them kind of ridiculous. As for Aba's quote, that's a specific trait of the Biovore, since it's a mortar-type weapon. It being Heavy has no bearing on that, but means you can't move it without reducing its already-poor accuracy.
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Jul 7, 2017 02:44
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:True, but Assault 2 would mean the guns always fire twice so at ranges beyond 12" the Intercessors would be more efficient. Of course. But for some reason it didn't seem like that's what he was asking. As it stands, they're only really more effective at 24"-30" (where their bolters can shoot that Tacticals' can't) and 12"-15" (where their double-tap range is extended). And of course the Bolt Rifle is at AP -1, which I think is already factored into the efficiency numbers. But otherwise, ya. It's harder for a Primaris to earn its point cost back.
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Jul 7, 2017 02:48
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WhiteWolf123 posted:Of course. But for some reason it didn't seem like that's what he was asking. Yeah, I was asking about how it'd be if they were made Assault 2 (so they could get twice the attacks of Tacticals on average, but not ramp up to anything ridiculous like Rapid Fire 2 where they're shooting 4 times as much). That way, even if they aren't as directly efficient, they'd at least have a better effective range of 12" to 30" instead of those weird breakpoints. That way they could be the dependable midrange option, with Tacticals being better at digging in at closer ranges.
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Jul 7, 2017 02:58
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Keep the rest of the stats the same but make then S5. Problem solved.
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Jul 7, 2017 03:01
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Pendent posted:Keep the rest of the stats the same but make then S5. Problem solved. Them or their guns?
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Jul 7, 2017 03:24
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Remember when the first rumors of bigmarines were coming out and people were looking forward to seeing S5 T5 marines with like heavy bolter stat boltguns and poo poo And then we get guys that just have an extra wound, a bit of AP and cost too much
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Jul 7, 2017 03:26
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chutche2 posted:Remember when the first rumors of bigmarines were coming out and people were looking forward to seeing S5 T5 marines with like heavy bolter stat boltguns and poo poo Yeah pretty much. The extra wounds isn't that useful as far as I can tell since a fair bit of stuff that wipes power armour out with ease is also multi wound.
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Jul 7, 2017 03:27
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At least they look awesome so I still want to replace my whole army of tiny-tot marines.
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Jul 7, 2017 03:28
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That's OK man just wait for the 9th edition secundus marines
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Jul 7, 2017 03:28
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JBP posted:Yeah pretty much. The extra wounds isn't that useful as far as I can tell since a fair bit of stuff that wipes power armour out with ease is also multi wound. That's one major thing I've been noticing looking at weapon statlines this edition. There isn't really much in the way of high AP, low damage. There's high potential damage, low AP stuff like flamers and other multi-hit weapons, but not much that won't already destroy a Primaris.
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Jul 7, 2017 03:35
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So I guess everyone's going to ignore the solid boost in melee capability and just focus on the slight drop in ranged efficiency? Biglys are fine. Right now they're suffering from a lack of options and the need for normal marines to shore up the holes in an army, but I expect that to change quite a bit with the actual codex. Intercessors might stay bolters only, but there will be other unit types to help out.
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Jul 7, 2017 03:36
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Safety Factor posted:So I guess everyone's going to ignore the solid boost in melee capability and just focus on the slight drop in ranged efficiency? Biglys are fine. Right now they're suffering from a lack of options and the need for normal marines to shore up the holes in an army, but I expect that to change quite a bit with the actual codex. Intercessors might stay bolters only, but there will be other unit types to help out. The fact that the tac sergeant can take a power axe or something probably makes up for the attack deficit. 96 points gets you 6 S4 attacks and 2 power axe attacks, vs 100 getting you 11 S4 attacks. Better against a lovely horde of something but the tac squad can give you better attack quality where it counts. And yeah we'll see melee biglys eventually but melee biglys will compare to assault marines or vanguard or terminators, not to tacticals. Intercessors compare to tacticals. Running the math hammer, the 7 tac marines with an axe will slightly outperform 5 intercessors in damage output vs an MEQ target and cost slightly less. The intercessors should shine in melee durability though since unless they're getting nommed by an MC or a unit of power fist terminators are being thrown at them they probably won't see many attacks at greater than 1 damage. Stuff that does more than 1 damage though makes intercessors super vulnerable. Intercessors would be a good target to throw in front of a horde of orks or gaunts, since the lack of an AP weapon on the sergeant doesn't matter much and they'll play the attrition game better for the points. chutche2 fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Jul 7, 2017 |
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Jul 7, 2017 03:40
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Safety Factor posted:So I guess everyone's going to ignore the solid boost in melee capability and just focus on the slight drop in ranged efficiency? Biglys are fine. Right now they're suffering from a lack of options and the need for normal marines to shore up the holes in an army, but I expect that to change quite a bit with the actual codex. Intercessors might stay bolters only, but there will be other unit types to help out. If the Repulsor is more like a rhino and less like a land raider in terms of price, and Intercessors can take more than 5 guys, they definitely have a place, even if they can't take special weapons. I actually kinda like the idea that Primaris are bigger and better but less flexible - a Bolterman does what a Bolterman does, and if you want flaming death you call the Flamerman squad, you don't just get one flamer in yours. It distinguishes them without obsoleting normal marines immediately. I'm still taking Devastators over Hellblasters, but that's only because Lias Issodon can't infiltrate with Primaris nor can they drop pod.
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Jul 7, 2017 03:40
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Safety Factor posted:So I guess everyone's going to ignore the solid boost in melee capability and just focus on the slight drop in ranged efficiency? Biglys are fine. Right now they're suffering from a lack of options and the need for normal marines to shore up the holes in an army, but I expect that to change quite a bit with the actual codex. Intercessors might stay bolters only, but there will be other unit types to help out. Yeah with how much assaults are back in play you can't totally ignore offense-as-defense assaulting strength.
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Jul 7, 2017 03:41
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What are the most "standard" load-outs for the generic tactical marine and Space Wolves kits? I got one of each and I'm going to assemble them before handing them off to my mother to paint for eBay
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Jul 7, 2017 03:44
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chutche2 posted:The fact that the tac sergeant can take a power axe or something probably makes up for the attack deficit. 96 points gets you 6 S4 attacks and 2 power axe attacks, vs 100 getting you 11 S4 attacks. Better against a lovely horde of something but the tac squad can give you better attack quality where it counts. And yeah we'll see melee biglys eventually but melee biglys will compare to assault marines or vanguard or terminators, not to tacticals. Intercessors compare to tacticals. chutche2 posted:Oh?  The tactical squad you mentioned and the intercessor squad line up fairly well against each other vs. marines. Tacticals: 1.26 wounds Intercessors: 1.222 wounds That difference may as well be insignificant in a real game as we all know odds never work out quite that way. The math works out more in the tacticals' favor against 2+ saves, but both squads put up such poor numbers there that it's a pretty futile fight. Biglys still fine. Safety Factor fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Jul 7, 2017 |
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Jul 7, 2017 03:49
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Safety Factor posted:Are you so sure that Intercessor sergeants won't be able to take power weapons in the actual codex? We don't know the full range of options these units will have. Besides, I just crunched those numbers and the biglys still come out slightly ahead against the squad loadout you mentioned. Very slightly at 1.63 vs. 1.48 wounds against marines, but still. Biglys are fine, wait for the real book. Oh? I did 2 power axe attacks with a .666 chance of hitting giving 1.332 hits, .666 chance of wounding for .887 wounds, .666 chance of failing the save for 0.59 damage. Plus 6 S4 attacks doing 0.665, added together for 1.255. Biglys with 11 S4 attacks do 1.22. A very slight difference in the marines favor, enough to not matter. Like I said in my edit, the intercessors will come ahead in a lot of situations if the extra AP doesn't matter and you just want them to hold an area against massed S3 and S4 1 damage melee. In which case for the points they seem like a good attrition unit. But they'll crumple the moment they see anything that does more than 1 damage, and I expect the enemy to focus units with that capability on them. When combined with their flexibility and ranged output though I think tac marines will usually be a better choice, they might not attrition quite as well but if they kill more on the way in then it evens out. chutche2 fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Jul 7, 2017 |
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Jul 7, 2017 03:56
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Those melee buffs are going to make the first dedicated assault bigmarines pretty incredible. Considering CCWs are an extra swing each, that means a trio of Reivers is going to be getting a lot of attacks off, for example.
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Jul 7, 2017 04:07
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The Bee posted:Those melee buffs are going to make the first dedicated assault bigmarines pretty incredible. Considering CCWs are an extra swing each, that means a trio of Reivers is going to be getting a lot of attacks off, for example. Oh no doubt, melee biglys will be good. I think melee biglys will be better than vanguard and assault marines because they're combining the attrition benefits of having 2 wounds with the melee output of a real strike squad. Reivers will be amazing. It's hard to use elite 1 wound melee units.
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Jul 7, 2017 04:10
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chutche2 posted:Oh no doubt, melee biglys will be good. I think melee biglys will be better than vanguard and assault marines because they're combining the attrition benefits of having 2 wounds with the melee output of a real strike squad. Reivers will be amazing. It's hard to use elite 1 wound melee units. I'm hesitant on Reivers as-is because if they only come in units of 3, they're likely going to have a hard time dealing with larger groups of enemies. Then again, considering they're stealth units, they'll probably be really easy to deploy against weak gunlines like Tau or Termies to carve them up like turkeys.
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Jul 7, 2017 04:22
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Is there a sniper rifle version of the Reivers? It isn't clear to me what battlefield role the shank and pistol loadout is for.
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Jul 7, 2017 04:29
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GreenMarine posted:Is there a sniper rifle version of the Reivers? It isn't clear to me what battlefield role the shank and pistol loadout is for. Not that we've seen - though maybe. The role they seem to be meant to fill in their CCW form is infiltrating/deep striking light melee skirmisher. Meant to dislodge snipers, fragile gunlines, etc. \/\/ Can someone explain to me why stalker boltguns are good? Ive looked at the profile and it just seems like a worse weapon than a bolter unless I am completely missing something. JoshTheStampede fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Jul 7, 2017 |
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Jul 7, 2017 04:36
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Reivers with stalker boltguns should be a thing.
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Jul 7, 2017 04:37
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chutche2 posted:Reivers with stalker boltguns should be a thing. Stalker bolters, no. Scout sniper rifles, yes. Keep Reivers as the pickoff role, in this case for character units.
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Jul 7, 2017 04:51
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I'd hope for something more interesting than a scout sniper. S4 ap- isn't exactly the most exciting thing.
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Jul 7, 2017 04:53
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The Bee posted:Stalker bolters, no. Scout sniper rifles, yes. Keep Reivers as the pickoff role, in this case for character units. Right, I'm thinking stalker bolters like what Telion has. His is Heavy 2, S4, Ap-1, d3 damage, can target characters. They can make it just damage 1 or only 1 shot so telion's is still better. Anyway it looks like I can squeeze my entire motor pool into a 2k list. Spearhead detachment, 2000 points HQ: Techmarine with conversion beamer, boltgun, power axe Elites: Contemptor dreadnought with kheres assault cannon Relic sicaran venator with 3x heavy bolters Heavy support: Predator with twin lascannon, two heavy bolters Predator with twin lascannon, two heavy bolters Predator with predator autocannon, two heavy bolters Vindicator with storm bolter Leman russ with battle cannon, lascannon, 2 heavy bolters Flyers: Stormraven with twin assault cannons, hurricane bolters, twin multimelta Dedicated transport: Razorback with twin assault cannon, stormbolter Razorback with twin assault cannon, stormbolter Chimera with multilaser, heavy bolter, stormbolter
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Jul 7, 2017 04:56
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Pendent posted:I'd hope for something more interesting than a scout sniper. S4 ap- isn't exactly the most exciting thing. Giving it a -1 in the Primaris tradition would be fine enough, or maybe giving it a -2 like the Captain's bolt rifle. The important thing would be giving an answer to characters, imo. Something like Quietus would be amazingly perfect. The Bee fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Jul 7, 2017 |
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Jul 7, 2017 04:56
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Haven't yet seen anyone post about how Pask can be given a 6+ feel no pain via a warlord trait so I figured I'd post about it here. It's pretty great.
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Jul 7, 2017 05:27
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General Olloth posted:Yeah with how much assaults are back in play you can't totally ignore offense-as-defense assaulting strength. I get the argument, but I personally don't see the slight improvement doing anything significant against the kind of enemies who would want to get into assault.
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Jul 7, 2017 05:37
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:I get the argument, but I personally don't see the slight improvement doing anything significant against the kind of enemies who would want to get into assault. Times like this, the stratagem that lets you cut the line on melee attacks becomes really useful. If a bunch of Hormagants or Poxwalkers mob your Primaris, for example, you can try and trim their numbers down so that their ensuing attacks end up being less powerful or accurate. It basically forces you to commit dedicated melee units against Primaris instead of going for a screening carpet.
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Jul 7, 2017 05:44
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The Bee posted:Times like this, the stratagem that lets you cut the line on melee attacks becomes really useful. If a bunch of Hormagants or Poxwalkers mob your Primaris, for example, you can try and trim their numbers down so that their ensuing attacks end up being less powerful or accurate. It basically forces you to commit dedicated melee units against Primaris instead of going for a screening carpet. Sure? They don't actually do that better than 10 tac marines, they're just cheaper and have vastly less firepower. They're fine attrition units vs hordes of 1 damage no ap melee because they have great durability for their cost against that. But anything that will 10 tac marines will also kill 5 primaris, plus they're half as durable vs multi damage attacks.
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Jul 7, 2017 05:59
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TheChirurgeon posted:The thread needs more cool hobby poo poo. Ok, so I've talked up this army for a while as something I'm excited to bust out in 8th edition so I thought I would finally take a few pictures of them. They've been sitting in storage for too long and while this doesn't represent all the models I have built, it's a pretty good sample of what I'm going for with the army. I haven't touched them in at least a couple of years and I stripped and disassembled the one squad I had painted to customize them more. They're still in pieces.  All of these models were built back when 25mm bases were the norm, for an idea of how long I've had them. I rebased as soon as 32mm bases were available; mashed fishing weights weren't enough to keep my raptors from tipping over, but the larger bases seemed to fix it.The basic concept for the army is a Night Lords warband similar to the one portrayed in ADB's series. The marines are not dedicated to any of the gods, they steal everything not nailed down, and utilize a ton of looted wargear, mostly out of necessity. The leaders are a bit more into chaos as a means to gain more power, but calling it worship would be going a little too far. However, my raptor lord is built to emulate the basic shape of a winged demon prince with the two-pronged sword and large left claw. The intent is for the models to represent the same character at different points. Let's move on to these cynical bastards: Chaos Marine Squad: These guys have an identically-equipped sister (brother?) squad; it's the one that's currently in pieces. Both units will have rhinos to ride around in and I have one built with FW legion doors and spiky treads I got from Skull and Blood Industries on ebay. I have enough for a second rhino just waiting on a chassis though I may go with a deimos for variety. I probably should switch out the champion's bolter for a combi-plasma given the changes in 8th.   Raptor Squad: I built two different aspiring champions because there'll eventually a second squad. I've just lumped them all together for now.    HQs: The chaos lord with the axe is a simple conversion, but is one of my favorite models. He was going to represent a lord with the insane Khorne murder axe from the 6th edition book. The arms and haft of the weapon are stolen from the 40k Deathwing kit while the axe comes from the plastic aspiring champion. Said champion was used to make my raptor lord who was very, very involved and another of my favorites. I even replaced the fingers on his powerfist and his goddamn toes.   I noticed the jump pack was at an angle after I took these pictures. Seems like the glue/greenstuff bond had been broken somehow, but the pin had kept it on. It's fixed now. With the pictures out of the way, time for some more commentary. Y'all will have noticed that all of my raptors have metal jump packs. I hate the plastic jump packs because they have spikes growing out of their turbines, among other reasons, and the old metal raptors' packs were rad as hell. I lucked into 30-35 metal raptors for $70 on ebay and decided to go for it. I'm not using the raptor bodies as they're a bit smaller and thinner than most marine models and I can't convert them the way I'd like to. Going plastic lets me work in all sorts of parts. I've used chaos marine, imperial marine, forge world bits, and even some metal Night Lords parts I've had since 3rd or 4th edition. This army is my own, personal converter's dream because I can finally mix and match parts to my hammy heart's content. Future units will incorporate leftover MkIII and MkIV parts from my plastic 30k models. I also have some MkV armor which is my favorite, but unfortunately I don't have a use for it in my 30k army. These guys actually predate my 30k DA by quite a bit so I'm glad I picked some up back then. I even experimented with jeweler's chain as can be seen on the two chaos lords and will continue to work it onto champions, demon engines, etc. My basic game plan for the army is to run two chaos marine squads in rhinos, a backfield cultist squad, a bunch of deep-striking raptors, terminators, and maybe even warp talons, with two maulerfiends to (hopefully) draw fire. The maulerfiends are (maybe, eventually) going to be painted as if they're from other legions such as the Iron Warriors or Word Bearers and have been hastily painted blue over an existing paint job. I don't see these guys as having the means to make such things themselves. Fortunately, they're shameless thieves. I need to get through a fair chunk of my 30k DA before I can justify returning to this army, but I'm really looking forward to it. The CSM codex is coming soon and I'm hoping for some solid legion rules. And bolter/chainsword chaos marines. 
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Jul 7, 2017 06:02
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Looking at the models available for primaris models and thinking that running them as Space Wolves might be best for now. Grey Hunters can take two special weapons in a squad of ten and the liets can be used as the model that can take a power weapon. The captain can be used as Grimnar or whatever in terminator armor. That should be good to add to a IG army for bulk. Will look nice at least.
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Jul 7, 2017 06:16
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Played against my friends Space Wolves tonight. Two games - first went to me pretty decisively (shot 6 of his Grey Hunters to death on the first turn that I stole, the remaining 4 were taken out in a failed morale check) second to him with his deep striking Wolf Guard in Terminator stuff. I'm really loving the synergy between the Primaris Captain, Lieutenant and regular units. Strength in numbers! 
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Jul 7, 2017 06:26
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Yeah the power sword Lt finds his way into most of my lists now. For 75pts the aura is great and he's a decent melee fighter into the bargain.
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Jul 7, 2017 07:09
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Corrode posted:Yeah the power sword Lt finds his way into most of my lists now. For 75pts the aura is great and he's a decent melee fighter into the bargain. He does look pretty solid. It's hard for me to find a space for him though. I usually use a captain for my guns and a chaplain for my melee. If he could go in my storm raven I'd probably take him instead of the apothecary.
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Jul 7, 2017 07:15
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SpikeMcclane posted:You see one model, but can kill the entire unit if you get enough hits / wounds. This is from ages ago but this is really dumb and I've basically had issues with how this game handles cover since like, 6th? Much prefer the third ed version. Especially gently caress whichever version went fullhog on TLoS and did away with area terrain.
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Jul 7, 2017 08:44
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adamantium|wang posted:In this case 3 models of the red unit can see a model in the green unit and fire. Wait RAW can't Green allocate all the wounds to just the out of cover model then?
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Jul 7, 2017 08:50
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ijyt posted:Wait RAW can't Green allocate all the wounds to just the out of cover model then? Depends on how many wounds it suffers. If it dies, the rest have to go to the hidden models regardless. This does give one fun absurdity. A hill blocks LOS if all models are behind it. A forest gives cover if all models are in it. If you have half of your unit behind a hill, and half nestled in an adjacent forest, they're all as good as perfectly exposed.
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Jul 7, 2017 08:57
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