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Len posted:At no point did I say it wasn't a bad story. I just don't understand why them trying to actually give their games a story is such a horrible thing. I mean hell Fallout 1 is "looking for a water chip" 2 "the GECK" 3 "my father" NV I'm honestly unsure about why is "my son" such a crazzzzzy thing? The complaint that pops up the most isn't "it's a bad story" it's "how dare they make a story that interferes with me being The Man With No Name/Dr Who/whatever else you want to pretend you are that the game literally doesn't react to The phrase "my son" alone says leagues more about who your character is than any of the other motivations you listed. In a series known for being role playing games, that is viewed as undesirable
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Jul 7, 2017 07:08
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If you think this conversation runs in circles, just wait 18 years when fallout 7 is coming out and it's an RTS.
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Jul 7, 2017 07:17
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RareAcumen posted:If you think this conversation runs in circles, just wait 18 years when fallout 7 is coming out and it's an RTS. See that might be kind of interesting though, even if done janky, so you can very safely rule that out of Bethesda's possibilities.
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Jul 7, 2017 07:22
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Fallout already has a turn based strategy game in it (Fallout: Tactics). So in a way, I'd say a fallout RTS is closer to the original than bethesda current fallout model. But then I'm a crotchety argumentative fan of the old games who is still salty 10 years later. It's oblivion with guns sheeple! Open your eyes!
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Jul 7, 2017 07:29
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Len posted:At no point did I say it wasn't a bad story. I just don't understand why them trying to actually give their games a story is such a horrible thing. I mean hell Fallout 1 is "looking for a water chip" 2 "the GECK" 3 "my father" NV I'm honestly unsure about why is "my son" such a crazzzzzy thing? The complaint that pops up the most isn't "it's a bad story" it's "how dare they make a story that interferes with me being The Man With No Name/Dr Who/whatever else you want to pretend you are that the game literally doesn't react to "Whatever else you want to pretend you are" is the whole reason to play Bethesda games - they have massive and varied options for building wholly different characters, and the games are wide open enough to not only accept your build, they often embrace it. A game where you can choose a role to play, as it were. In Skyrim, New Vegas, and even Fallout 3 to an extent, you build a character and then bounce them off the world. Fallout 4 flat-out tells you who your character is.
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Jul 7, 2017 07:34
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yeah Bethesda doesnt know poo poo about making games people want to play, the key is to maximize the opportunities for roleplay because everyone who plays videogames is a massive loser who hates themselves
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Jul 7, 2017 08:02
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Bethesda saw the success of Bioware and took all the wrong notes.
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Jul 7, 2017 08:11
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It's pretty funny that goons appear to be physically unable to imagine themselves having been in a settled relationship and responsible for a child.
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Jul 7, 2017 08:19
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Mr. Flunchy posted:It's pretty funny that goons appear to be physically unable to imagine themselves having been in a settled relationship and responsible for a child. Its more that one does not neccesarily want to role play a character who does, in a series that traditionally leaves those details unspecific. Some of us play games to escape reality, after all.
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Jul 7, 2017 08:31
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ArtIsResistance posted:yeah Bethesda doesnt know poo poo about making games people want to play, the key is to maximize the opportunities for roleplay because everyone who plays videogames is a massive loser who hates themselves Bethesda games are great. I have so much fun after I mod them and ignore the story and replace all the textures and create an entirely different game experience than the one they intended. I love them so much! Bethesda games are popular because people love to mod things and they are one of the only games on the market that offers the particular brand of western-RPG. They don't do it well, they are not particularly good games, but because they are the only real heavy hitter in the market they sell like hot cakes and people somehow trick themselves into thinking the games are actually good. 'Lots of people have fun with bethesda games despite their numerous and obvious flaws' is the most true statement here. Agent355 has a new favorite as of 08:44 on Jul 7, 2017 |
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Jul 7, 2017 08:39
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RareAcumen posted:If you think this conversation runs in circles, just wait 18 years when fallout 7 is coming out and it's an RTS. While not an RTS I'd absolutely play the poo poo out of an XCOM: Fallout, where you play as a bunch of NCR squaddies blowing each other up and somehow managing to stop the Legion in spite of themselves. That series already has its upgrade tree based off of stolen/salvaged tech so if Bethesda just licenses the setting to 2K/Firaxis the game will basically make itself. New Butt Order has a new favorite as of 08:42 on Jul 7, 2017 |
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Jul 7, 2017 08:39
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New Butt Order posted:While not an RTS I'd absolutely play the poo poo out of an XCOM: Fallout, where you play as a bunch of NCR squaddies blowing each other up and somehow managing to stop the Legion in spite of themselves. Isn't that brotherhood of steel or tactics or whatever?
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Jul 7, 2017 08:49
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Mr. Flunchy posted:It's pretty funny that goons appear to be physically unable to imagine themselves having been in a settled relationship and responsible for a child. I'm a huge gaylord that wants nothing to do with children and the motivation of "WHERE CHILD" is completely lost on me.  Also the clowns that always come out to try and go "HEH yeah, obviously they don't know how to make games, even though people keep buying them, amirite" are still harping on one of the dumbest ways to try and validate something. ilmucche posted:Isn't that brotherhood of steel or tactics or whatever? Tactics was basically Jagged Alliance 2: Fallout and was pretty neat for what it was. Brotherhood of Steel was a Diablo-like sort of thing and was just embarrassing all over.
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Jul 7, 2017 08:51
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Tactics is a pretty neat game for what it is. I've never tried brotherhood since I heard nothing but bad about it.
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Jul 7, 2017 08:53
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GIANT OUIJA BOARD posted:The people who like to pretend there is some other story to the game that exists only in their heads are just loving weird. Len posted:The complaint that pops up the most isn't "it's a bad story" it's "how dare they make a story that interferes with me being The Man With No Name/Dr Who/whatever else you want to pretend you are that the game literally doesn't react to
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Jul 7, 2017 08:55
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This is all you need to know about BoS: It featured very subtle product placement by the energy drink Bawls Very subtle product placement. Also I'm not even going to read it and assume Tiggum is still bewildered that people want to sometimes play their own character in roleplaying games!
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Jul 7, 2017 08:55
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Tiggum posted:"Role playing" in a video game is the most hilariously dumb thing that comes up in this thread. "This game's story is vague enough that it doesn't conflict with my head-canon, and that's what makes it great! Yeah, it's a role playing game.
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Jul 7, 2017 09:03
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Yardbomb posted:Also I'm not even going to read it and assume Tiggum is still bewildered that people want to sometimes play their own character in roleplaying games!
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Jul 7, 2017 09:07
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I started to explain what people mean when they say they're roleplaying in a game like fallout 1. Then I remember it was Tiggum and my time had more value than that. Then I made this post explaining that which somewhat defeats the purpose but let's me be smug about it 
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Jul 7, 2017 09:10
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Byzantine posted:In Skyrim, New Vegas, and even Fallout 3 to an extent, you build a character and then bounce them off the world. Fallout 4 flat-out tells you who your character is. Hm, the defining moments of Skyrim for me all have to do with being unable to conform the world to your preferences, or vice versa in a way that would be logical or consistent. You can't work against the assassin guild if you miss one tiny opportunity, even though their quests are immoral. You can only ignore them. You can't fight the evil mead-making family, even though they also order you to murder innocents. You can only ignore them. You can't defy the Deirdric lords in their individual quests, you can only ignore them. Etc, etc. Player choice is effectively only a choice not to play parts of the game.
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Jul 7, 2017 09:35
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Nothing wrong with dunking on
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Jul 7, 2017 09:36
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steinrokkan posted:Hm, the defining moments of Skyrim for me all have to do with being unable to conform the world to your preferences, or vice versa in a way that would be logical or consistent. You can't work against the assassin guild if you miss one tiny opportunity, even though their quests are immoral. You can only ignore them. You can't fight the evil mead-making family, even though they also order you to murder innocents. You can only ignore them. You can't defy the Deirdric lords in their individual quests, you can only ignore them. Etc, etc. Player choice is effectively only a choice not to play parts of the game. The one that really got under my skin in particular was you can't not-join the mage's guild. It's literally requried by the main story and I never found a way around it. Playing a rogue archer dude who never in his life cast a spell? Enjoy being some middle-high rank in the mage's guild at minimum. 'Do thing' and 'Not do thing' is not a choice!
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Jul 7, 2017 09:39
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For me, headcanon and roleplaying having nothing to do with it; the concrete fact of the matter is that I'm playing a character that spends months of in-game time exploring old factories, shooting cannibals in the head, building up farming settlements, and assembling neat guns out of piles of garbage. The narrative of "your infant son has been kidnapped by horrible people and you have to rush to rescue him right now because they're probably going to eat him" is in direct conflict with what I'm actually doing, and in fact seems to be trying to make me feel bad for exploring the world and having fun. Yeah, you can ignore that (despite the game's constant attempts to remind you) but wouldn't it be nicer if you didn't have to?
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Jul 7, 2017 09:57
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Triarii posted:For me, headcanon and roleplaying having nothing to do with it; the concrete fact of the matter is that I'm playing a character that spends months of in-game time exploring old factories, shooting cannibals in the head, building up farming settlements, and assembling neat guns out of piles of garbage. The narrative of "your infant son has been kidnapped by horrible people and you have to rush to rescue him right now because they're probably going to eat him" is in direct conflict with what I'm actually doing, and in fact seems to be trying to make me feel bad for exploring the world and having fun. Yeah, you can ignore that (despite the game's constant attempts to remind you) but wouldn't it be nicer if you didn't have to? Which is a criticism that makes a hell of a lot more sense then being mad that the video game doesn't go along with things that exist only in your head and not actually in the game itself.
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Jul 7, 2017 10:13
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Agent355 posted:I started to explain what people mean when they say they're roleplaying in a game like fallout 1. Then I remember it was Tiggum and my time had more value than that. Triarii posted:The narrative of "your infant son has been kidnapped by horrible people and you have to rush to rescue him right now because they're probably going to eat him" is in direct conflict with what I'm actually doing, and in fact seems to be trying to make me feel bad for exploring the world and having fun. Yeah, you can ignore that (despite the game's constant attempts to remind you) but wouldn't it be nicer if you didn't have to?
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Jul 7, 2017 10:23
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Tiggum posted:I know what they mean, I just think it's really dumb. Tiggum posted:"Role playing" in a video game is the most hilariously dumb thing that comes up in this thread. "This game's story is vague enough that it doesn't conflict with my head-canon, and that's what makes it great! This other game has enough of a story that I can't imagine I'm playing a totally different character to the one actually present in the game, therefore it is bad!" You're a loving idiot Tiggum The complaint I have with fallout is that it's based on games which were based on role playing games, the entire concept being you get to explore a world and do whatever the gently caress you like to achieve an end-goal that is vague, but still engaging to the player to find their own way to achieve. The entire concept of an RPG is to play a seamless CYOA novel where you reach the end-goal via your own decisions. Dishonored and Prey are perfect examples of this concept done well, with an established character! They give you room to build who you are as a player, what path you want to take to achieve your goals, and how those decisions ultimately affect your story. It's good storytelling. It's letting the player fill in the blanks between A and Z based on the context given to them. loving Arkane Software games are better RPGs than Bethesda's foray into the genre, and Arkane built that in a formula from older games like Thief and System Shock to give the player freedom of action that doesn't detriment the overall story. Fallout 3 & 4 have a constant, persistent nudging to complete a story that is laid out for you. It works great as an FPS linear game, but it exists within a franchise that encourages you to explore while constantly keeping in mind the pressing story at an arm's length. 4 and Skyrim not only don't do this, it becomes a microcosmic story of player-empowerment and pathos within a world I don't give a gently caress about outside of my own discovery and explanation, by design. I explore, I learn, I grow into the story and care more about it because I'm rewarded with a story that fits around how I play and what I experience. Having a constant Heavy Rain "SHAUN" button in dialogue trees is not only poo poo at pushing the narrative Bethesda put forward for somebody actually wanting to play an RPG as an RPG, but it's garbage storytelling out the gate. bawk has a new favorite as of 11:08 on Jul 7, 2017 |
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Jul 7, 2017 10:47
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Tiggum posted:Doesn't this apply to essentially every open-world game and RPG? It's a fairly reasonable complaint, it's just, why single out that game when every game does it? Plenty of open-world games have stories that serve the gameplay (or gameplay the serves the story, if you prefer). In Fallout 1 you're looking for a piece of old technology, so rummaging through old buildings is at least in character for the protagonist, even if you know as a gamer that you're not going to find the water chip in a random garbage dump. Breath of the Wild has you wandering around gathering power, regaining your memories, and getting the master sword so you can go beat Ganon before he takes over the world. For more action-oriented open world games like Far Cry, the story tends to be "there are bad dudes and you need to shoot them" so wandering around shooting bad dudes and finding better ways to shoot things is entirely in line with the story. At the very least, the story shouldn't work against the gameplay. If I'm actually paying attention to the story in Fallout 4 then I should feel bad for spending an hour clearing a dungeon because that's another hour I left my son in the clutches of evil villains. If I do the same in New Vegas, eh, my revenge against Benny is going to be just as sweet once I get around to finding him (plus I need the money I found in that dungeon to get into the Strip anyway). thecluckmeme posted:Having a constant Heavy Rain "SHAUN" button in dialogue trees is not only poo poo at pushing the narrative Bethesda put forward for somebody actually wanting to play an RPG as an RPG, but it's garbage storytelling out the gate. You know what would have instantly saved FO4's story? If I had a button I could press at any time that yelled out SHAUN, so I could mash it while walking through the ruined streets and buildings of Boston. Boom, gameplay-story integration.
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Jul 7, 2017 10:54
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H I T M AN 'Landslide' has an opportunity where you have to flood the stage and expose the wiring on the ground so that your target will be electrocuted when they reach the puddle. I'm pretty sure if I followed the steps onscreen I could have pulled it off, but there's this issue when I load a save and my tracked opportunity doesn't pop up onscreen unless I deselect and then reselect it. So in order to pull it off, you have to expose the wiring of some guitar pedals behind a water display and then flood the stage by increasing the water pressure. But the power strip isn't live yet because you have to turn on the guitar pedals with the nearby laptop. Said laptop is constantly manned by one roadie. I couldn't figure this one out without a guide myself, unfortunately. I thought I had missed a crucial step in the process because once you flood the stage noone will get on because they need to mop the floor up to avoid the electrical hazard and laptop roadie fucks off for some reason. Turned out that was the right setup because I then had to go to a nearby mic setup and activate that to broadcast the target's making GBS threads on the crowd so he'd walk back on the stage. I dunno, it was a lot of steps all crammed in small location and none of it felt like it was signposted well enough for me to figure out without tooltips. Also, I don't think there's a way with the game's UI to clear saves. I'd have to root around my drive and delete them that way.
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Jul 7, 2017 10:56
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e; calling off the hounds.
poptart_fairy has a new favorite as of 11:14 on Jul 7, 2017 |
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Jul 7, 2017 11:05
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Wait, nonce means something? I legitimately did not know that. I thought it was like calling somebody 'jerk' or 'idiot' in that the words had an actual real meaning at one point but have been used to the point of 'generic bad thing to be'. TIL.
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Jul 7, 2017 11:07
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Haha gently caress, I didn't even know that's what it meant. I'll go edit that out then
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Jul 7, 2017 11:07
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Fallout 4's premise might have worked if the rest of the game didnt fail at being interesting. Someone else used witcher 3 as an example of what is essentially the same plot, a parent trying to find their child. But nobody gives it poo poo for that because the story hinges on an established character of literature. Fallout 4 doesnt have that to back it up and isnt nearly as compelling for it.
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Jul 7, 2017 11:08
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Yeah, it's slang for someone who's hosed a kid, or committed other sexual crimes against them. Fair enough if you don't know what it meant but even so. 
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Jul 7, 2017 11:14
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RagnarokAngel posted:Fallout 4's premise might have worked if the rest of the game didnt fail at being interesting. Someone else used witcher 3 as an example of what is essentially the same plot, a parent trying to find their child. But nobody gives it poo poo for that because the story hinges on an established character of literature. Fallout 4 doesnt have that to back it up and isnt nearly as compelling for it. And despite using pre-established characters, W3 still gives you a greater freedom in defining your own nuanced attitude to your quest, it in fact actively challenges you to think about your motivation and what finding your charge means for you. Instead of Me find baby, baby mine, baby good!
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Jul 7, 2017 11:19
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Agent355 posted:The one that really got under my skin in particular was you can't not-join the mage's guild. It's literally requried by the main story and I never found a way around it. Actually, I'm fairly certain you can go through Skyrim without joining any of the guilds - there should be a dialogue option to get in because you're the dragonborn. Same with the thieves guild, you can tell Brynjolf to go gently caress himself and then you just have to be liberal with the bribes in the Ragged Flagon when looking for Esbern.
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Jul 7, 2017 11:21
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Yeah, you can "join" the Mage's guild by Fus'ing for the woman out front. She'll let you through to talk to the other mages without needing to run through the trainee stuff.
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Jul 7, 2017 11:23
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RagnarokAngel posted:Fallout 4's premise might have worked if the rest of the game didnt fail at being interesting. Someone else used witcher 3 as an example of what is essentially the same plot, a parent trying to find their child. But nobody gives it poo poo for that because the story hinges on an established character of literature. Fallout 4 doesnt have that to back it up and isnt nearly as compelling for it. I actually really enjoyed the main story of Fallout 4, right up until you first meet the Minutemen in the museum. I felt really drawn in, and was all ready to go off and find my son as a vengeful house-mom with a pistol and a scrounged breadknife. But yeah, that kind of story really needs a tight narrative to draw you along without wasting too much time on irrelevent nonsense, otherwise the gameplay and story clash horribly, and Fallout 4 is 95% irrelevent nonsense.
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Jul 7, 2017 11:24
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RagnarokAngel posted:Fallout 4's premise might have worked if the rest of the game didnt fail at being interesting. Someone else used witcher 3 as an example of what is essentially the same plot, a parent trying to find their child. But nobody gives it poo poo for that because the story hinges on an established character of literature. Fallout 4 doesnt have that to back it up and isnt nearly as compelling for it. I only played a bit of it but other things that helped: 1. The sense of urgency is way lighter. You're hired to find someone's (adult) daughter because he's worried about her, rather than having your own son taken by murderers right in front of you. 2. A lot of the side content you're doing is hunting monsters, ie your actual goddamn job, so it makes sense for you to split your time between that and the main quest. Contrast to FO4 where pillaging ruins, joining the Minutemen, and so on are essentially nonsensical actions given your character's motivation.
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Jul 7, 2017 11:26
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Triarii posted:You're hired to find someone's (adult) daughter because he's worried about her I mean Ciri is much more Geralt's daughter than she ever was Emhyr's, discarding "But blood" when really that doesn't matter for jack as Emhyr mostly wants her for power, to prop up as a ruler and to creep over. But again, bigger difference is that Ciri's an established character already if you want to know about her, plus you get to see and play moments of Ciri in the game where she exhibits her own character and isn't just a swaddled face that you MUST care about.
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Jul 7, 2017 11:46
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Gerblyn posted:I actually really enjoyed the main story of Fallout 4, right up until you first meet the Minutemen in the museum. I felt really drawn in, and was all ready to go off and find my son as a vengeful house-mom with a pistol and a scrounged breadknife. But yeah, that kind of story really needs a tight narrative to draw you along without wasting too much time on irrelevent nonsense, otherwise the gameplay and story clash horribly, and Fallout 4 is 95% irrelevent nonsense. I also disliked some of the other details it tries to wedge in. Like a male PC is always a soldier pre-war even with a gun skill of 20%. A female PC is always a lawyer even if her int and persuasion are rock bottom. Triarii posted:I only played a bit of it but other things that helped: Well, no, not quite. Ciri is Geralt's adopted daughter in the proceeding books and he definitely is more of a father figure to her than the nilfgardian emperor. I suppose its a testament to the game that it still worked for you despite not knowing that though. Edit: beaten.
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Jul 7, 2017 11:50
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