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Also, I'd suggest ignoring class skill list and allowing all classes 4 skills. There is some feat errata that is recommended for free at the start, but at low levels those are less of an issue. You'll also have less magic item book keeping if you check the inherent bonuses box.
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Jul 7, 2017 19:12
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gradenko_2000 posted:I wrote a thing about how to simplify 4e down to a form similar to 5e: https://songoftheblade.wordpress.com/2017/05/07/simplified-modifiers-for-dd-4e/ Hey, you loving rock. This simplified breakdown is perfect. I think it will help ease my players into changing up edition a little. As for the rest, I want to avoid wizard bullshit, but to be more precise: I want to spread wizard bullshit out so everyone has some flavor of bullshit. I use the teleporting rogue as an example where they come across a large chasm that they want to get across and there's a lever on the other side. Normally the Wizard would invalidate this by using bullshit such as fly or teleport or make a bridge himself or telekinetically flip the lever, so if my rogue player can hop between shadows as part of a combat ability, why not outside of combat? That kind of question. What bullshit can 4th edition players do, basically. I want them to use their skills to defeat obstacles. I'm just not sure how well 4e handles that concept. 5e obviously just lets the wizard do it. ImpactVector posted:The builder also keeps your players from going insane. There's about as much paperwork for your average 4e character as there would be for a 5e spellcaster. I have literally never built a 4e character by hand. The first time I tried, I sad "gently caress this" half way through and ponied up for a DDI sub. I have a very low tolerance for busy work though. See, that's my concern. I'd like to keep my players sane, but I also want to open up the game a little bit. After having played 5e for a while, I can definitely tell some players just check out of combat sometimes -- how many sessions over how many months can you basically say, "Ok, my turn? I shoot my bow again" before it's just That Thing I Do between having actual fun. I want to engage my players in combat (4e seems like it excels at this) but also engage my players outside of combat.
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Jul 7, 2017 19:17
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My Lovely Horse posted:For one, you get Attack and Utility powers. Attack powers require a valid target to be used; generally that's going to be an enemy, as there's a rule that basically states "no you can't attack a harmless ant just to get the additional benefit." Utility powers can be used freely at any time. That's another question I had, but Encounter Power = 5 minute rest seems sensible. I am not worried about my player's power gaming at all, they are mostly new and looking for a solidly fun game, with story, wacky hijinks and exciting combat. So far we're missing that third thing, so letting them use their abilities in crazy ways to solve problems isn't an issue. My only issue is that I want everyone able to solve problems, not just the wizard (and I speak from someone who is the wizard in our current game). And not scaring them with to many options. Going from "I use bow on man" to having actual options will probably be a bit of a shock to the system, so we'll see. Moriatti posted:It should be noted that the character builder doesn't exist officially anymore, you are going to have to homebrew an older Windows app if you want it. People in this thread hooked me up and it's pretty easy to install (it gets worrisome because one point in the Homebrew, it feels like it's hanging up and not working, but it is. I was planning on doing a oneshot, but if the players enjoy the system, continuing on with it. So the pregens would be welcomed, and then I could let them flesh them out if they opt to keep them for a whole campaign.
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Jul 7, 2017 19:36
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Lemniscate Blue posted:Thanks, I appreciate that. Here it is: https://pastebin.com/N226TLUZ You've also got quote:<specific name="_Rarity"> Rare </specific> quote:<specific name="_Rarity" />
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Jul 7, 2017 20:14
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ImpactVector posted:Eh, the teleport movement type is still mostly the province of magic. So you're either looking at an O-Assassin (which is one of the few classes in the game that people will tell you to avoid), a hybrid Executioner|Warlock (which is not something you want to drop on a newbie), or a reskinned (fey?) Warlock. Rogues get powers that let you shift, which can largely imitate teleportation. Yes, I know it's not the same, but for most purposes it's close enough. Also, you will not find good out-of-combat mechanics in any edition of D&D. 4E is no exception to this--it is, just like all other editions, a combat simulator. Anyone who tells you other editions do out-of-combat better is an idiot.
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Jul 7, 2017 20:24
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User0015 posted:I want to engage my players in combat (4e seems like it excels at this) but also engage my players outside of combat. Do you mean in terms of character building, or in terms of roleplaying that isn't about fighting things? For the former, my approach when I ran 4e with players who weren't into character building was that whenever a level-up was due I'd pick three or four choices for each player that were all good, and then present them to the player as an IC decision on what the character wanted to train in next. Honestly, if it's not a thing a player enjoys, my advice is not to force it upon them. For the latter, 4e doesn't have much in the way of rules that affect things outside combat. You can roll on skills, and you can let players perform rituals, but that's basically it. To my mind, that's a strength, not a weakness: crunchy rules are great in combat when things become a minature wargame, and outside of combat you can let things get a bit more fluffy and allow your players to freeform ideas and roll with their punches.
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Jul 7, 2017 20:24
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Dick Burglar posted:Rogues get powers that let you shift, which can largely imitate teleportation. Yes, I know it's not the same, but for most purposes it's close enough. When people say that other editions do out of combat better they mean that they let casters rewrite reality on a whim better.
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Jul 7, 2017 20:46
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ImpactVector posted:a hybrid Executioner|Warlock (which is not something you want to drop on a newbie) Depends on the newbie. If they're someone who legit just wants to do the whole "I attack!" every round, this is one of the better things they CAN play, without how so much of it is built onto eldritch strike. It's legitimately one of the easiest hybrids you can make. The only reason it's bad is because it IS a spammer of one ability, unlike most hyrids which legitimately are just way too complex. That said, yes, the rogue in 4e is entirely mundane. That doesn't mean they have to stay that way, even if you ignore refluffing. You don't even need to hybrid or go Eladrin. A rogue can multiclass into warlock and then take the utility power swaparoo feat to grab one of the warlock's many utility teleports. Or likewise, but going for assassin. In fact, I'm pretty sure there's a multiclass assassin feat that in of itself gives you a short range teleport. If I recall, you gotta teleport from one creature to another, but you as DM can probably just go "naw" to that bit. 4e multiclassing isn't as rigorous as previous D&D's (that's what hybrids are for) but you can do a lot with them once you assume you aren't trying to go for BLEEDING EDGE OPTIMIZATION or w/e. And yeah, 4e has the same out of combat mechanics and such that all D&D's have. It's legitimately not really that different from 5e; your numbers go up differently, but when all is said and done, it's still a system that largely depends on you picking specific skills in chargen and then those specific skills slowly get better as you level and that's about it. 4e at least has utility powers that can be non-combat (and personally I wish they all were!), so your rogue can do things like make a thievery check as part of their attack, or can move their normal speed while stealthing forever, if they chose those utilities.
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Jul 7, 2017 20:46
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ProfessorCirno posted:Depends on the newbie. If they're someone who legit just wants to do the whole "I attack!" every round, this is one of the better things they CAN play, without how so much of it is built onto eldritch strike. It's legitimately one of the easiest hybrids you can make. The only reason it's bad is because it IS a spammer of one ability, unlike most hyrids which legitimately are just way too complex. Multiclass assassin gets you teleport as an encounter move power
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Jul 7, 2017 20:49
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User0015 posted:As for the rest, I want to avoid wizard bullshit, but to be more precise: I want to spread wizard bullshit out so everyone has some flavor of bullshit. I use the teleporting rogue as an example where they come across a large chasm that they want to get across and there's a lever on the other side. Normally the Wizard would invalidate this by using bullshit such as fly or teleport or make a bridge himself or telekinetically flip the lever, so if my rogue player can hop between shadows as part of a combat ability, why not outside of combat? That kind of question. What bullshit can 4th edition players do, basically. What most people do IME is use a PC's combat powers either straight against a target number (which IMO is a little tough since the numbers scale a little differently than skills, so you can't use the table in the DMG as-is) or to inform what can be accomplished via a skill check. For instance, if a player has a power that lets them shoot fire bolts, then it's pretty easy to let them make arcana checks to solve problems that involve lighting distant things on fire. Or movement powers are definitely easy to work with. That does sometimes leave more fictional space for magic people to work with, but it all still comes down to creativity in the end.
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Jul 7, 2017 21:09
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User0015 posted:I was planning on doing a oneshot, but if the players enjoy the system, continuing on with it. So the pregens would be welcomed, and then I could let them flesh them out if they opt to keep them for a whole campaign. Ok, the post you quoted has some level 1 pre-gens, but if you give me some guidelines, I'll custom build some dudes for you, because that's fun. poo poo, if you're running it online I'll even make custom sprites for them in FE or Chrono Trigger stye. That'll take longer though. ...I just miss getting to make dude in 4e that'd see play.
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Jul 7, 2017 21:36
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User0015 posted:Second, how does 4th edition handle Wizard Bullshit? I.E. Charm people, fly, delete castle walls for easy breach points, teleport the entire party back to a safe place, cast Wish and basically solve every problem that isn't kill the thing? On the other hand, if I have a player that really wants to play a thief or rogue that can teleport between shadows, how does 4th handle using powers outside of combat? *nobody who matters anyway.
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Jul 8, 2017 00:33
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PMush Perfect posted:reskin everything. I've been running a 4e game, first time I've done D&D. One of the guys playing gave me this exact advice. He said "You could spend hours with a creature builder or paper and try to fine tune everything but...why? Everything you need is already made. Just rename poo poo." It's been a huge load off coming from Shadowrun. The only thing I've had to do was kinda tune down damage on monsters out of Monster Vault because a level 2 brute dealing 3d8+7 damage seemed...a little excessive.
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Jul 8, 2017 02:20
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Early 4E monsters had way too many HP and didn't do enough damage. One of the things that was eventually changed was to cut their HP to make fights end faster and up their damage to make them more threatening to compensate, and it was a really good change.
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Jul 8, 2017 02:29
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Yeah, the sweet spot for "ow" monster damage is 'oh Jesus', but MM1 trends towards 'oh', and some of the really early brutes can end up overshooting into OH JESUS.
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Jul 8, 2017 04:25
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4e games I tend to play have something along the lines of the following houserules: Inherent Bonuses: equipment gains enhancement bonuses over time, so you don't have to replace your flaming longsword +1 with the flaming longsword +2 Free Expertise Feat: The math is still a little broken, but instead of fixing it, the Essentials line created feats that add an attack bonus to weapon and implement groups. So, this isn't a feat to be cool, this is a feat to not be bad. Let'm have it. Improved Defenses Feat: The math for non-AC defenses also don't quite scale correctly. This is, again, not making your character great, it's making it not bad. You really do need this feat eventually, it's boring, just let'm have it. Melee characters need some kind of good melee basic attack, especially for opportunity attacks: While there're feats like Intelligent Blademaster (specific to the Swordmage), but non-strength frontliners who can't use another stat for basic attacks need at least Melee Training, and this goes twice for defenders. People really shouldn't be able to waltz by the front line because their opportunity attack is like 6 lower than their normal attacks. I know that people probably would frown on going to class guides, but there's an archive for the old 4e character optimization boards here: https://web.archive.org/web/20150929123504/http://community.wizards.com/forum/4e-character-optimization/threads/1478896 The main thing is that this really helps narrow down the feats you might want to pick. In the character builder, you can pretty easily see All 1st Level Encounter Attacks, but the feats are just this giant fuckoff list, usually separated into categories like racial/general/class, but there's just so many that having at least a little hint of things to consider featwise can help. Do take their suggestions with a grain of salt, especially when it comes to powers, as they're graded completely in isolation. A bad power in the right group can do really well. I'd focus mainly on just getting the list of feats narrowed down a bit.
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Jul 8, 2017 04:51
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Keep in mind that vanilla inherent rules while giving a sensible sounding "You get a +1 for free at level 2, then a +2 for free at level 6" one level later than the item level scale for weapons and implements? Armor and Neck items follow the opposite extreme of "You get your +1 at level 5!. and your +6 at level 29 (yes we know level 30 is the last level" giving you your freebie plus just in time for it to be obsolete again. Maybe your group and preferences like that, maybe they don't, but it's a quirk to keep in mind.
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Jul 8, 2017 05:57
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PMush Perfect posted:Yeah, the sweet spot for "ow" monster damage is 'oh Jesus', but MM1 trends towards 'oh', and some of the really early brutes can end up overshooting into OH JESUS. Dropping 3/4 PCs in the first encounter is S tier Gming
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Jul 8, 2017 06:14
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MMAgCh posted:In case you haven't gotten this sorted out yet, the statadd element for the Pisces Zodiac Stone needs to be enclosed within <rules> </rules> tags. Thanks! I implemented the changes, but I don't know if this fixed anything because now the drat thing won't load at all - just crashes with that same error. Crap. I'll try reinstalling everything.
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Jul 8, 2017 06:40
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S.J. posted:Dropping 3/4 PCs in the first encounter is S tier Gming Newbie table had one guy walk into a building, then every enemy beating the poo poo out of him because everyone else was outside out of sight. 
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Jul 8, 2017 06:56
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I give out those item upgrades when the party would otherwise get a magic item. That keeps the balance just fine.
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Jul 8, 2017 07:26
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Speaking of dropping the party, does anyone else find you can cause death spirals in 4e more easily than in other systems? How do I avoid that?
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Jul 8, 2017 20:41
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Moriatti posted:Speaking of dropping the party, does anyone else find you can cause death spirals in 4e more easily than in other systems? Don't drop the leader(s) first, and make sure people have potions. Don't be punitive about using potions; just leave it as a minor action. Also remember a dirt simple heal check can give someone else their second wind.
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Jul 8, 2017 21:53
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The only time I've seen a death spiral in a 4e game was when the DM wanted to "teach us a lesson" about how he could beat us at any time. I think the real surprise is that 2 people stayed. I was not one of them. I wish I could find 4e games that weren't horrific.
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Jul 8, 2017 22:24
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Jesus, that's the opposite of what I'm going for, I want my players to feel good about overcoming a challenging encounter every now and then. I'll focus less. Usually I have monsters target one of the Strikers, but I think potions are a good idea.
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Jul 8, 2017 22:30
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Lemniscate Blue posted:Thanks! I implemented the changes, but I don't know if this fixed anything because now the drat thing won't load at all - just crashes with that same error. Crap. I'll try reinstalling everything. 
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Jul 8, 2017 22:57
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Gharbad the Weak posted:The only time I've seen a death spiral in a 4e game was when the DM wanted to "teach us a lesson" about how he could beat us at any time. I have seen a 4E death spiral, but it hinged on massive swings in die results. The first two rounds, my group rolled fantastically and dropped an elite immediately, and the DM wasn't hitting anything. This resulted in us getting over-confident and spreading out, at which point the dice turned and we couldn't properly support each other. Things got bad, fast, but honestly it was our fault. Moriatti posted:Jesus, that's the opposite of what I'm going for, I want my players to feel good about overcoming a challenging encounter every now and then. That being said, I have seen cases where encounter design is driving the effect. Usually if the monster group is too synergistic. One of the tricks of 4E is that you want to be about one step down from optimal for monster party construction. If the monster group can reliably get in all their attacks on one target every round, a single bad initiative lineup can lead to a character being dropped immediately and things can spiral out of control from there. It works better if you can make one, clear weakness in a monster group - e.g. their artillery are just nuisances rather than real threats, their lurkers and skirmishers are highly mobile but their brutes and soldiers are not so the party can split them up easily, they don't have good synergy with their controller. You can also introduce a weak link by including a monster type the party is really good at dealing with as a sole source of some effect. For example, if the party is heavy into area attacks, consider using high damage minions instead of a true skirmisher or lurker, so the party can - if they're paying attention - make a tactical choice to rapidly remove them from the field. It takes a bit of practice to tune it so you have challenging encounters that don't spiral, but I found the weak link approach meant the party would take a beating if they just went in headlong, but there was a way to get control of the situation back.
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Jul 8, 2017 23:46
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This was the group with the "always magic missile" wizard. I'll try tossing some weak link encounters at them.
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Jul 9, 2017 00:22
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Moriatti posted:This was the group with the "always magic missile" wizard. I'll try tossing some weak link encounters at them. Did you set this guy up with a simpler character? I mean, I don't know if the person is currently playing a wizard, but if you have a wizard only using magic missile, then your encounters are basically one person too tough.
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Jul 9, 2017 00:50
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Gharbad the Weak posted:The only time I've seen a death spiral in a 4e game was when the DM wanted to "teach us a lesson" about how he could beat us at any time. We had one here, but I think our GM vanished 
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Jul 9, 2017 00:53
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Oh, that was for narrative purposes, and I have no problem being thrown around for story purposes. This guy was doing things like attempting to kill downed PCs so that the others would have to find a way out of the dungeon with fewer PCs, because he felt like we'd been doing too well.
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Jul 9, 2017 00:58
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Oh, I meant the whole "non-horrific 4e game" part.
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Jul 9, 2017 02:09
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Gharbad the Weak posted:Did you set this guy up with a simpler character? I mean, I don't know if the person is currently playing a wizard, but if you have a wizard only using magic missile, then your encounters are basically one person too tough. I talked to her about this. When we return I'll have her be a Elementalist. I just have some time before I'm running this stuff so I like to get a few things ready to go.
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Jul 9, 2017 02:14
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In Gardmore Abbey news, my party has latched on to the idea that the abbey's downfall was caused by one of the items that are simply sidequest macguffins. I have no idea where they might have picked this up. At least they're getting a plot twist out of it?
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Jul 9, 2017 10:09
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Death spirals in 4e are possible, but they're usually easy to avert through monster tactics, and if they do happen, it's ALWAYS possible to find the party a way out, even if it's a deal with Death.
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Jul 9, 2017 10:25
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Gharbad the Weak posted:This guy was doing things like attempting to kill downed PCs so that the others would have to find a way out of the dungeon with fewer PCs, because he felt like we'd been doing too well.
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Jul 9, 2017 10:39
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thespaceinvader posted:Death spirals in 4e are possible, but they're usually easy to avert through monster tactics, and if they do happen, it's ALWAYS possible to find the party a way out, even if it's a deal with Death. My approach as a GM is that something should only get gametime if there's uncertainity over how it will end. "The party are all killed, end of campaign" isn't a fun or satisfying ending for most fights, so the uncertainity has to come from other places. This means that generally, as I plan each fight I will plan out what happens in the event that all players are knocked out of the fight. Sometimes, I have to stretch this a bit ("the ravenous trolls eat one of you, and leave the others behind because they're full") but if I'm finding I have to stretch terribly far, it's usually an indication that this isn't an important enough fight to spend half an hour of game time simulating.
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Jul 9, 2017 11:03
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Oh yeah, I've come up with a lot of escapes, the one time I completely wiped the party, they got captured and that actually worked pretty well. It was just a LOT of fights threatened TPK and I didn't want to keep having them captured. I'll scale back composition and I think the reclass will help.
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Jul 9, 2017 15:11
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I've always throught 4e characters were really hard to bring down, I've never come close to a TPK in any game I've played. I mean, I guess you might just be really good tactically? Maybe they're playing a wizard and 4 strikers? I feel like there's something going on that we're not hearing.
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Jul 9, 2017 23:19
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Gharbad the Weak posted:I've always throught 4e characters were really hard to bring down, I've never come close to a TPK in any game I've played. I mean, I guess you might just be really good tactically? Maybe they're playing a wizard and 4 strikers? I feel like there's something going on that we're not hearing.
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Jul 9, 2017 23:26
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