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I actually agree with Imp on that one, as I felt that boost Sonic went back to the idea of Sonic being fundamentally about inertia and learning the right paths and reactions for hitting the optimal path, even if they got the balance wrong for first time playthroughs. Adventure 1 and 2 lost that in favour of their own style of play, because you could see all obstacles from a mile away due to the 3D perspective. Unleashed attempted to solve that with super sonic speed, and even if it didn't get it entirely right, I nonetheless felt like I was playing as the fastest thing alive for the first time in years.
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Jul 10, 2017 01:18
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Chieves posted:So like have you not played Generations or what Yes I have. I liked it at first then replayed it and realized that it was actually pretty shallow and there's only one real way to play the game. Why are you acting like I insulted your mother by saying that Generations is kinda shallow. Could you be any more defensive about a video game?
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Jul 10, 2017 01:20
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I Like generations a lot, a whole lot, but it doesn't feel like there's a ton of meat on the modern sonic levels at times
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Jul 10, 2017 01:43
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S ometimes O 2d sonics N are also poo poo* I but 3d sonics are C always poo poo See also: sonic spinball
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Jul 10, 2017 01:46
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:Unleashed attempted to solve that with super sonic speed, and even if it didn't get it entirely right, I nonetheless felt like I was playing as the fastest thing alive for the first time in years. Hell yes. It took a little memorization, but after a couple goes you figured out the right paths and could just open the throttle for the entire level and that felt loving awesome. I have never gotten that feeling from any 2D Sonic. Ever.
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Jul 10, 2017 01:53
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I got that feeling from playing F-Zero. Except way better
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Jul 10, 2017 01:55
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One thing in forces they're definitely not going to fix before release is the bad music. Usually even if the game's bad at least the music's catchy, if cheesy, but this hoobastank song sucks. It's not "ironically good" or "so bad it's good" it just sucks.Shinjobi posted:I'll agree with you on that point; not sure exactly what the dude wanted. Sonic 3's first level had the cruisin' rhino bot and the spike spitting flower bot, and they were placed in a way just to disrupt your momentum. The level usually slows you down before that though so even first time players have time to react. For example there'll be an upward incline or stationary object you have to jump over before the grounded enemy can hurt you. In Sonic 2 they even went as far as to not have any enemies touch the ground in the first zone. They're all flying or climbing trees and you have to avoid their projectiles. It's really only in Sonic 1 and CD where you can just run into an enemy with no warning.
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Jul 10, 2017 02:50
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Augus posted:Yes I have. You described people's opinion as a honeymoon period. People legitimately enjoy the boost games.
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Jul 10, 2017 03:36
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Ah yes, the "honeymoon period", y'know that thing that's denoted by an extended length of time in this case bordering on 6 years?
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Jul 10, 2017 03:39
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:S ometimes Sometimes O2d sonics nare also poo poo Ibut 3d sonics are calways poo poo? What are you talking about
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Jul 10, 2017 05:57
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I seem to remember Modern Sonic levels in Generations having alternate paths to cut down your time and give you rewards for exploration. You know, kind of like the classic games. So I dunno where this perceived lack of depth comes from, unless the mere existence of boost pisses you off. About the only thing you can't do in Modern Sonic levels is go backwards most of the time, but given the only 2D Sonic game which made extensive use of going backwards is fairly divisive among fans with the level design (CD), I can see why Sega went with more appeal to the wider fanbase. I mean the Modern games aren't perfect and personally, I'd rather that boost kicked in once you reached certain levels of momentum and you were rewarded for keeping boost going via skillful play instead of just pressing a button as that'd certainly give Modern Sonic a bit more depth. But to claim the levels have no depth sounds weird and reductive.
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Jul 10, 2017 06:20
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Sebadoh Gigante posted:One thing in forces they're definitely not going to fix before release is the bad music. Usually even if the game's bad at least the music's catchy, if cheesy, but this hoobastank song sucks. It's not "ironically good" or "so bad it's good" it just sucks. Look at how bad your opinions are.
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Jul 10, 2017 06:24
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CJacobs posted:Ah yes, the "honeymoon period", y'know that thing that's denoted by an extended length of time in this case bordering on 6 years? you're allowed to like games that aren't the best games. I don't really care
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Jul 10, 2017 06:43
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:S ometimes gently caress yea, mate. Evil Eagle posted:Sometimes O2d sonics nare also poo poo Ibut 3d sonics are calways poo poo? Now yer catchin on!
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Jul 10, 2017 06:45
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I think Forces won't be anything above passable but I also think if it is good reviewers will tear it to shreds regardless The important thing is it looks like I'll have fun with it and can't wait to be Sonics New Best Friend
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Jul 10, 2017 06:49
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Guys what if Bear with me here, just, what if Sonic was actually never good (except the music which is always good)
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Jul 10, 2017 06:50
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Augus posted:please explain to me the depth and complexity of Boost Sonic's movement that I've apparently been overlooking. You're being pretty goddamn disingenuous if you're acting like the old Sonic games were genuinely score attack games and not that they had scores because all games at that point had scores, compared to the modern Sonic games which do put a heavy emphasis on getting high scores and good rankings. Regardless, yes, the modern Sonic games are not just designed around finishing the stages but finishing the stages in as long an unbroken unstopping combo as you can manage, and finding routes that allow you to do that in as short a time as possible, with every mechanic playing into the idea of not having to stop. Things like boosting through the enemies to earn extra boost or figuring out homing attack patterns to skip sections may not appeal to you but they do appeal to other people. Your inability to divorce "different' from "godawful terrible" is entirely on you.
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Jul 10, 2017 06:53
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Pureauthor posted:Guys what if It was always good AND the music is always good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gk4cIt0HBs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UGrbk2jKss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxtFoe-at0E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJOmJxM8Rx4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umu0h7N5Gjs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_64s_oACXo bonus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiMxfVIDoKQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4ex1I4SFZs
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Jul 10, 2017 06:54
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the classic sonic mechanics have a lot of potential for depth, but even in the 90s the devs weren't exactly the best at utilizing them, as indicated by literally every zone in Sonic 1 besides green hill
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Jul 10, 2017 06:57
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Motto posted:the classic sonic mechanics have a lot of potential for depth, but even in the 90s the devs weren't exactly the best at utilizing that, as indicated by literally every zone in Sonic 1 besides green hill Starlight Zone and Spring Yard Zone were the tits, yo.
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Jul 10, 2017 06:59
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Sonic is good and I like it. Here's some art by a guy who only got into Sonic three years ago. https://twitter.com/pinkpawpads/status/870444285946077184
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Jul 10, 2017 07:02
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ImpAtom posted:You're being pretty goddamn disingenuous if you're acting like the old Sonic games were genuinely score attack games and not that they had scores because all games at that point had scores, compared to the modern Sonic games which do put a heavy emphasis on getting high scores and good rankings. None of this is particularly deep though because the optimal route is almost always blatantly obvious thanks to the small amount of routes to choose from in the first place,, boosting into enemies is something that happens incidentally because they are placed directly in your path, and there is no "figuring out homing attack patterns". Homing attack patterns are a straight line of enemies that you hit in a row. Or you just air dash over the gap which is almost always better. Not rocket science. If Generation is a score attack game it isn't a very good one. I got an S rank my first time through on most stages, and my second time through on all of them. If you don't die, you're basically guaranteed an S Rank. And you're not very likely to die. Nights this ain't. What I like is how you are so defensive that you can't tell the difference between saying a game is "not amazing" and "completely terrible horseshit". Kinda tells me that you're not super-confident in your defense of these games. People who enjoy the boost games immediately start getting angry the second someone points out obvious problems with these games. Now why is that? I don't hate Generations but talking people who will die on the hill for it kinda makes me want to hate it. Augus fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Jul 10, 2017 |
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Jul 10, 2017 07:05
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I'm gonna have to echo ImpAtom's assertion that the classic games weren't really score attack games in any real capacity; they had scores, but the points had about as much meaning as the ones on Whose Line is It Anyway? (with the exception of getting extra lives every 500,000 or so). The change didn't really come around until Adventure 2 added an actual grading mechanic to incentivize paying attention to the thing, just as NiGHTS and Burning Rangers before it had done. A case could be made for Time Attack mode in Sonic CD and Sonic Jam, I suppose.
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Jul 10, 2017 07:09
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the classics weren't score attack games but they could be played like score attack games. they weren't time attack games but they could be played like time attack games. they weren't exploration games but they could be played like exploration games. the mechanics and level design were flexible and interactive enough to allow for numerous different playstyles and a large degree of player expression through the gameplay. boost games are built to be played one way and can only really be played one way. and they don't really do anything remarkable with that playstyle beyond some flashy presentation
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Jul 10, 2017 07:14
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Augus posted:None of this is particularly deep though because the optimal route is almost always blatantly obvious thanks to the small amount of routes to choose from in the first place,, boosting into enemies is something that happens incidentally because they are placed directly in your path, and there is no "figuring out homing attack patterns". Homing attack patterns are a straight line of enemies that you hit in a row. Or you just air dash over the gap which is almost always better. Not rocket science. If Generation is a score attack game it isn't a very good one. I got an S rank my first time through on most stages, and my second time through on all of them. If you don't die, you're basically guaranteed an S Rank. And you're not very likely to die. Nights this ain't. This is an incredibly dumb argument which shows you haven't actually bothered to like, look at the games you're whining about. There are, in fact, more non-obvious paths and routes. Generation's S-rank mechanic is too forgiving but that still leaves plenty of room for finding faster paths and more effecient ways through the levels. Is it a ~hardcore~ score attack game? No, because no Sonic game is a hardcore game, I'm not particularly defensive. All the Sonic games have pretty significant issues and I enjoy the ones I do enjoy despite those issues. This includes both the classic games and the modern games. I personally prefer the classic games (not in the least because I grew up with them) but I think the hyperbole from the people desperately clinging to nostalgia is pretty tiresome.
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Jul 10, 2017 07:20
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I properly played through the classic games like a couple years before Generations came out at most. I didn't own a Genesis growing up. My first Sonic games were the Adventure ones. I'm not nostalgic for the Genesis games, I just know what a loving good game looks like and I'm not desperately emotionally invested in defending the drunken flailing of a game company that doesn't know what to do with their cash cow mascot. I loving played the boost games. I examined them closely and give them a fair shot like I do with every game I pay 60 bucks for because I want to enjoy video games. They are just okay at best. If that makes you go into panic attacks I don't really care. God forbid the games improve or something. And before you say anything yes I loving know about the paths at the beginning of chemical plant. I found that on my own and was pleasantly surprised. I guess that makes it an instant 11/10 GOTY my favorite game ever.
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Jul 10, 2017 07:30
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Augus posted:I properly played through the classic games like a couple years before Generations came out at most. I didn't own a Genesis growing up. My first Sonic games were the Adventure ones. I'm not nostalgic for the Genesis games, I just know what a loving good game looks like and I'm not desperately emotionally invested in defending the drunken flailing of a game company that doesn't know what to do with their cash cow mascot. you may not be emotionally invested in defending anything but you sure are in painting people who disagree with you as frothing maniacs, rather than people making yknow counterpoints to your points?
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Jul 10, 2017 07:48
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Dirty Deeds Done posted:you may not be emotionally invested in defending anything but you sure are in painting people who disagree with you as frothing maniacs, rather than people making yknow counterpoints to your points? I'm just nostalgic, I didn't actually play the games I played, I'm nostalgic, I hate Sonic, I'm nostalgic, I'm whining, I didn't play the games,and when i say something is just okay I really mean it's the worst game ever made setting the bar pretty high for counterpoints I see (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 10, 2017 08:02
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Augus posted:I'm just nostalgic, I didn't actually play the games I played, I'm nostalgic, I hate Sonic, I'm nostalgic, I'm whining, I didn't play the games,and when i say something is just okay I really mean it's the worst game ever made You make extremely hyperbolic statements and then get upset when people take those statements as your actual comments. (Also Sonic Generations is over almost six years old at this point so yes, it's entirely possible that even if you only played Sonic 1-K a few years before Sonic Generations came out you're nostalgic for them because that was about a decade ago then.)
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Jul 10, 2017 08:11
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Augus posted:Yes I have. Says the guy who, for the last several posts, has been doggedly trying to convince people people that "Thing They Like" is "Thing They Not Like." Go jerk off over your Megadrive some more.
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Jul 10, 2017 08:11
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Augus posted:I'm just nostalgic, I didn't actually play the games I played, I'm nostalgic, I hate Sonic, I'm nostalgic, I'm whining, I didn't play the games,and when i say something is just okay I really mean it's the worst game ever made lol nice persecution complex
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Jul 10, 2017 08:17
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ImpAtom posted:You make extremely hyperbolic statements and then get upset when people take those statements as your actual comments. I could be equally nostalgic for Sonic Generations, Sonic Colors, or Sonic Unleashed by your logic. Or I could say that you are nostalgic for those games. I'm not making hyperbolic comments, I'm describing my problems with the gameplay because I think those are problems with the gameplay. If you don't see it that's your problem, not mine. You started this discussion going on about nostalgia and now you're still going on about nostalgia. It's tedious Screaming Idiot posted:Says the guy who, for the last several posts, has been doggedly trying to convince people people that "Thing They Like" is "Thing They Not Like." That's not what I said. I was talking about the overall reception, not you dumb goobers. How many times do I need to say that you can like whatever you like and Sonic Generations is an okay game? Dirty Deeds Done posted:lol nice persecution complex 
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Jul 10, 2017 08:26
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Sonic Generations was a fun little distraction from Taxman's Sonic CD and All-Stars Racing Transformed, the real Sonic games during that time. Lovely pinball tables. Would jam with Vector again. Forces looks to do the same for Sonic Mania. Looking forward to playing Avatar dolly dressup in between Mania seshes.
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Jul 10, 2017 08:28
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Augus posted:I could be equally nostalgic for Sonic Generations, Sonic Colors, or Sonic Unleashed by your logic. Or I could say that you are nostalgic for those games. I must admit I don't understand the world you live in where 'sucks donkey balls" is synonymous with "okay."
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Jul 10, 2017 08:29
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it's this bizarre world where Unleashed came out years before Generations and was in fact a different game.
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Jul 10, 2017 08:33
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Augus posted:I could be equally nostalgic for Sonic Generations, Sonic Colors, or Sonic Unleashed by your logic. Or I could say that you are nostalgic for those games. you know trying to claim you said something different doesn't work when people can read the things you said back right? Because this revisionist bullshit you're pulling is laughable.
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Jul 10, 2017 08:34
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Augus posted:it's this bizarre world where Unleashed came out years before Generations and was in fact a different game. You are aware that going "this sucked donkey balls too, unlike these others games which played basically identically which are obviously better" doesn't make much sense, right?
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Jul 10, 2017 08:40
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Dirty Deeds Done posted:you know trying to claim you said something different doesn't work when people can read the things you said back right? Because this revisionist bullshit you're pulling is laughable. yes I know people can read the post I'm literally looking at that post right now and trying to process this leap in logic where I was suddenly reading your mind rather ban talking about my own views and the general receptions the games have gotten. ffs it is too late at night for me to be loving relitigating an internet discussion about dumb video games. I'm going to sleep. ImpAtom posted:You are aware that going "this sucked donkey balls too, unlike these others games which played basically identically which are obviously better" doesn't make much sense, right? core mechanics the same, design was very different Colors and Generations did different things with those core mechanics. I think they did some cool stuff but overall were held back by those core mechanics. You can disagree if you want. I don't care. Augus fucked around with this message at 08:45 on Jul 10, 2017 |
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Jul 10, 2017 08:43
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Augus posted:core mechanics the same, design was very different Not really? The basic design of Unleashed, Colors and Generations is very similar, to the point where they actually literally reuse some segments between the games. (And not just the obvious ones in Generations.) Colors is probably the most significantly different to compensate for the Wisp mechanics and how they play into stages but not enough that you can say it's wildly different. You're basically the first person to go "no, see, Unleashed was a different game entirely." (I mean it was because of Werehog stuff, not because it had different design philosophy.) I mean you do know that the guy responsible for the lead game design on Generations was the same guy responsible for the design of Unleashed's daytime stages, right?
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Jul 10, 2017 08:53
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Augus posted:You can disagree if you want. I don't care. Oh yeah, fuckin' clearly.
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Jul 10, 2017 09:01
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