|
prom candy posted:Not that I think any of these chucklefucks are innocent, but if you're ever accused of anything serious even if you're 100% innocent, get as many lawyers as you can afford. I'm honestly kinda surprised the president hasn't issued a blanket pardon of himself and all of his associates. Nothing to see here, move along. If I were his lawyer, it's what I'd suggest he do.
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 17:54 |
|
|
PerniciousKnid posted:Any chance the Dems demand repeal of the debt ceiling? That'd be an excellent first offer imo.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:22
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'm honestly kinda surprised the president hasn't issued a blanket pardon of himself and all of his associates. Nothing to see here, move along. If I were his lawyer, it's what I'd suggest he do. We had some disagreement over this, either here or in C-SPAM, I don't remember which -- can a presidential pardon protect from future charges?
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:25
|
|
|
mdemone posted:We had some disagreement over this, either here or in C-SPAM, I don't remember which -- can a presidential pardon protect from future charges? Future charges for past actions, yes. It is not necessary charges have been filed - for example, Nixon was pardoned without charges filed. Future actions, I suspect no.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:26
|
|
|
mdemone posted:We had some disagreement over this, either here or in C-SPAM, I don't remember which -- can a presidential pardon protect from future charges? I don't think there is a clear answer, but it's better to have and not need than need and not have. Plus, it's a whole separate issue to litigate, and that'll buy you more years outside the big house even in a worst case scenario. Keep in mind that in a scenario where I am Trump's lawyer, my goal would just be to make his defense as complex as possible so as to maximize billable hours and delay incarceration until after the heat death of the universe. Edit: I probably wouldn't be a good criminal defense lawyer
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:28
|
|
|
Wouldn't that require compliance under oath in the future, under penalty of jail? I'm not 100% but I thought that was how pardons worked (and also that he can only do that for federal charges).
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:30
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:Keep in mind that in a scenario where I am Trump's lawyer, my goal would just be to make his defense as complex as possible so as to maximize billable hours and delay incarceration until after the heat death of the universe Ah, but billable hours are as naught in the presence of Trump the Welcher.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:31
|
|
|
glowing-fish posted:The difference between the Ivanka thing and the Jared and Don things are like the difference between taking a stroll in the gentle rolling Appalachians on a summer day, versus being stuck in the Colorado Rockies in a snowstorm. See I disagree with this because it's all the same poison just in different amounts. Right now, in America, a rich ruling family is using their family members to rule our country like their own personal little monarchy. Trump gets to distance himself from anything too egregious by using his sons and daughters as extensions of himself, knowing they can't throw him under the bus, and are all willing to lie for him. A group of unelected, unqualified idiots are guiding our country's policy decisions. These people should not have security clearance. They should not be in the white house. And they certainly shouldn't be talking to foreign world leaders as if they represent our country. Is Ivanka sitting in Trump's chair a big deal? By itself, no. Taken in concert with her husband and brother's actions? YES. This is not something we should judge on a case by case basis of how bad any one thing they do is, it's something we should judge as a single stinking shitpile of inappropriate actions that only grows and grows and grows.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:31
|
|
|
mastajake posted:Wouldn't that require compliance under oath in the future, under penalty of jail? I'm not 100% but I thought that was how pardons worked (and also that he can only do that for federal charges). Yeah, theoretically, but Sessions has already committed perjury before Congress, not like anyone's going to be charged or held in contempt. It's not like the truth restricts these people. Or from the other side: Trump Jr has already basically confessed and his defense has been "so what? No harm no foul bro." They're gonna open their big fat dumb mouths regardless. Might as well.go full autocrat ASAP with blanket pardons. After all, the more evil they go, the faster, the more their supporters are strapped in with them. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Jul 10, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:33
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:Keep in mind that in a scenario where I am Trump's lawyer, my goal would just be to make his defense as complex as possible so as to maximize billable hours and delay incarceration until after the heat death of the universe. That sounds about right, though. Trump is an old man with little interest in his own health. If the lawyer can delay any consequences 10 years, he will either be dead of old age, or frail enough to not be able to be sent to prison. Win!
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:33
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:I don't think there is a clear answer, but it's better to have and not need than need and not have. Plus, it's a whole separate issue to litigate, and that'll buy you more years outside the big house even in a worst case scenario. nah, first court rules that a future pardon is not a defense, and then it gets appealed up with everything else they wouldn't let you do an interlocutory appeal on it
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:35
|
|
|
evilweasel posted:nah, first court rules that a future pardon is not a defense, and then it gets appealed up with everything else Good point Best strategy is probably to have it drafted and ready to go and just carry it around with you and the minute impeachment proceedings start to move forward, immediately after any criminal trial, etc., Issue the pardon then just to complicate things. Or sign it but don't announce it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:38
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'm honestly kinda surprised the president hasn't issued a blanket pardon of himself and all of his associates. Nothing to see here, move along. If I were his lawyer, it's what I'd suggest he do. are pardons automatically public? Maybe he has
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:38
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:are pardons automatically public? Maybe he has That'd be one way to do it. Sign a blanket pardon, hand it over to your attorney. Produce if needed.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:40
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:are pardons automatically public? Maybe he has The Senate Major-At-Arms has the power to detain the President for issuing a secret pardon, known in the industry as a 'night pardon.' However, he has the right to request trial by combat to settle the dispute.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:43
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:That'd be one way to do it. Sign a blanket pardon, hand it over to your attorney. Produce if needed. Worked for Jack Bauer
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:44
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/mariasacchetti/status/884499540568678401 This really won't gently caress over the foreign students subsidizing US students with the 5x in-state tuition costs.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:44
|
|
|
moostaffa posted:Worked for Jack Bauer If it's.good enough for Scalia it's good enough for America
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:46
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/884514470709657601
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:51
|
|
|
Party Plane Jones posted:https://twitter.com/mariasacchetti/status/884499540568678401 This pairs well with the tweet about how Republicans hate colleges and universities now.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:52
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, theoretically, but Sessions has already committed perjury before Congress, not like anyone's going to be charged or held in contempt. I thought the big problem with pardons is that you have to admit to have done the thing to get the pardon, and pleading guilty for colluding with russians seems like prime fodder to be politically turbofucked. They might not end up in jail, but they'd have problems getting into office again (hopefully.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:52
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:Good point You specifically can't pardon impeachment related offenses
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:56
|
|
|
ekeog posted:The Senate Major-At-Arms has the power to detain the President for issuing a secret pardon, known in the industry as a 'night pardon.' However, he has the right to request trial by combat to settle the dispute. You jest but there is a technical argument that trial by combat is valid American law. 1) the colonies adopted English common law in 1776 2) in 1774 the British Parliament tried to repeal trial by combat and explicitly failed So therefore at least for state law claims still technically valid if your state is one of the 13 colonies Arguably
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:56
|
|
|
How old is Ivanka in that shot where she's basically sitting IN her father's lap?! My god...just...
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:56
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:56
|
|
|
Party Plane Jones posted:This really won't gently caress over the foreign students subsidizing US students with the 5x in-state tuition costs. I'm glad they're increasing resources and enforcement on dangerous individuals first. A PhD student slightly overstaying his visa by not submitting the paperwork on time is a criminal, and must be removed off the streets immediately.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:56
|
|
|
The Glumslinger posted:You specifically can't pardon impeachment related offenses You can't stop impeachment with a pardon. But you may be able to pardon the underlying criminal activity. It's ambiguous, and ambiguity = litigation = delay
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:57
|
|
|
Rad Russian posted:I'm glad they're increasing resources and enforcement on dangerous individuals first. A PhD student slightly overstaying his visa by not submitting the paperwork on time is a criminal, and must be removed off the streets immediately. Knowledge is Power. Therefore PhDs are the most dangerous to our dear leaders.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:58
|
|
|
LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:I thought the big problem with pardons is that you have to admit to have done the thing to get the pardon, and pleading guilty for colluding with russians seems like prime fodder to be politically turbofucked. They might not end up in jail, but they'd have problems getting into office again (hopefully. Think of it as doubling down on nothing matters. Or rather as covering your bets. The Trumps dont care about political consequences and so far that's worked out for them. They only lose when someone gets a.fit of conscience (see:sessions recusal). So never have a.conscience. always do the most extreme thing. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Jul 10, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:59
|
|
|
Rad Russian posted:I'm glad they're increasing resources and enforcement on dangerous individuals first. A PhD student slightly overstaying his visa by not submitting the paperwork on time is a criminal, and must be removed off the streets immediately. "That student isn't as bad as a PhD student who did submit their paperwork but... uh... it was lost in the mail, let's go with that. I mean they're brown so they're clearly learning engineering to help ISIS"
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 21:59
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:You jest but there is a technical argument that trial by combat is valid American law. What about Louisiana which adopted Napoleonic code?
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 22:00
|
|
|
LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:I thought the big problem with pardons is that you have to admit to have done the thing to get the pardon, and pleading guilty for colluding with russians seems like prime fodder to be politically turbofucked. They might not end up in jail, but they'd have problems getting into office again (hopefully. arguably accepting the pardon is an admission of guilt, but you do not have to actually plead guilty or actually say anything at all (except if you get charged, to plead that you have a full pardon for the charged offenses)
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 22:00
|
|
|
mdemone posted:We had some disagreement over this, either here or in C-SPAM, I don't remember which -- can a presidential pardon protect from future charges? Only able to pardon things that have happened. A POTUS can't just say "I pardon X for murder" and then X goes out and kills a bunch of people and can't be charged for it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 22:01
|
|
|
Lote posted:What about Louisiana which adopted Napoleonic code? Trump follows scorpion law, not frog law
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 22:03
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:You jest but there is a technical argument that trial by combat is valid American law. And was actually successfully invoked in 1818, requiring Parliament to actually finally get rid of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashford_v_Thornton That said, private prosecutions aren't allowed under US law and I don't believe you could request trial by battle when facing prosecution by the Crown before the Revolution.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 22:03
|
|
|
Evil Fluffy posted:Only able to pardon things that have happened. A POTUS can't just say "I pardon X for murder" and then X goes out and kills a bunch of people and can't be charged for it. I think this has never actually occurred and the raw text of the constitution isn't specific, so while I think it's very likely that's how things would end up I bet there's no actual caselaw on it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 22:04
|
|
|
Evil Fluffy posted:Only able to pardon things that have happened. A POTUS can't just say "I pardon X for murder" and then X goes out and kills a bunch of people and can't be charged for it. POTUS can say "I will pardon X for murder" and then actually pardon X after X totally murders a person; this power is only put in check by Congress, and lol Congress.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 22:07
|
|
|
Pretty sure the President can only pardon crimes of murder if it is related to a federal law. Most murders fall under State jurisdiction. So like if someone I think murdered a bunch of people on a boat the President could pardon that
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 22:08
|
|
|
as a country we are never going to live this poo poo down.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 22:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 17:54 |
|
|
the easiest answer to why trump hasn't pardoned everyone yet is because it would cause total anarchy, Washington D.C. at the very minimum would burn. Not that he cares about that but I'm sure people have advised him against doing it heavily. I think there's a lot of loving outraged people who are only being held in check because of the mueller investigation and the assumption that justice will be served. However tenuous that may actually be. Captain Invictus fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Jul 10, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 22:12
|
|
