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bman in 2288 posted:But we're still theatergoing. Kinzo hasn't killed anyone yet. This could lead to Kinzo's big hypocrisy moment, where it's shown that he didn't gain power by killing everyone, but by running away and letting everyone else die. At the very least he's going to have to kill one person. His options at this point are as follows: 1. Let himself be killed by the Italian soldiers. 2. Help his comrades kill the Italians, Beatrice included. 3. Wait for the two groups to finish fighting, kill whoever is left standing.
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Jul 11, 2017 06:53
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ZiegeDame posted:At the very least he's going to have to kill one person. His options at this point are as follows: There's also the outside possibility of the last person on each side both inflicting fatal wounds on the other combatant before dying, leaving Kinzo having killed no one. Battler's explanation revives as a possibility again!
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Jul 11, 2017 07:47
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Cyouni posted:There's also the outside possibility of the last person on each side both inflicting fatal wounds on the other combatant before dying, leaving Kinzo having killed no one. Battler's explanation revives as a possibility again! See, the Japanese secret base was working on their secret weapon; small bombs.
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Jul 11, 2017 09:36
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Prof, why did you change your avatar?
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Jul 11, 2017 17:21
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Beatrice is dead
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Jul 11, 2017 17:23
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Tired Moritz posted:Beatrice is dead mods???
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Jul 11, 2017 17:43
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Grouchio posted:Prof, why did you change your avatar? It was changed for me, by the thread. I'm keeping it, though.
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Jul 11, 2017 17:45
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That is a kickass avatar/text combo. Good job to the witch who did it! witchcore ricepunk posted:Sweet Valley High foresaw S=K Hah, nice. Welcome to the land of seeing seacats everywhere you go. Seriously, nowadays I feel like I relate everything I consume back to Umineko. (Also I follow Shing Yin Kor too! So nice to see a fellow fan.)
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Jul 11, 2017 19:12
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 BGM: Kuina When I stumbled into something and fell, I was finally able to come to my senses a little.  "...Haah... haah..."I could still hear intermittent gunfire. The gunfight was still going on. And, it had spread throughout the entire base. Bice. Are you... okay...? I'll find her and take her to a safe place. The lieutenant will probably kill all of the Italians to steal the gold. Bice probably won't be an exception. "Bice... Bice...!"I lived for the first time after meeting you. I was born. So if you die, I'll die again. I could feel every cell in my body being reborn, not as Ushiromiya Kinzo, but as a completely different Kinzo. Of course, I was terrified that I might really be shot if I went back. But I didn't want to die anymore. To truly die. So, I was able to overcome my fear.  "...Biiiiceeeeeeee!!"  「There's no need for you to know. Just stay hidden there. Don't come out until one of your fellow countrymen calls for you!」 "I heard an Italian voice!! He's over there!!" 「drat yellow monkeys!!」Rubens stood with Beatrice behind his back and neatly shot the two men rushing at him with 2 9mm bullets from his Beretta M1934. However, one of the 8mm bullets from their Type 94 semi-auto pistols went straight into Rubens's chest. All three of the shooters were struck in the chest and fell down in a heap.  「N, no!! Rubens!!」 「... Go up to the surface... Hide in the forest...*cough*cough*!! Ggh...」 「Rubens!!!」 "...Heheheh. My, my. Aren't we chatty?"The next person to appear... was the commanding officer of the Japanese soldiers, Yamamoto. The blast of three guns had just sounded. Adding on Beatrice's screams, it was hardly surprising that he had noticed the encounter. "If it had to come to this anyway, we should've taken this woman as a hostage in the first place. drat annoying, that's what they are!"Yamamoto spat. Beatrice used that moment to snatch up Rubens's gun. 「Aahh...!!!」 "Oh, picking up a gun without hesitation! Italian women sure are scary! Dammit, both of you screwed up...!!"He spat this last part at the two dying men who lay moaning at his feet. However, it wasn't particularly surprising. And, this wasn't the first time it had happened. In this tiny, cramped tunnel, nearly everyone had met head on. When both sides shot recklessly in this situation, the result was two corpses. So, whoever sensed another person and pulled the trigger quickest 'won'. That was the only way to survive this battle without a bullet in your chest. Because of this, both Japanese and Italians had killed each other without hesitation, and they sometimes even pulled the trigger on oncoming allies. In the midst of all this were several Japanese men who had stumbled into the fight, wondering what was going on. It didn't matter whether the other person was holding a gun or not. Everyone had reflexively pulled the trigger at the sight of anyone other than themselves, trying to stay alive. The entire base had been wrapped up in this slaughter... There was a fierce gun battle taking place in the submarine dock. And a massacre resembling a hunt was taking place inside the base. Most of the non-combatants assigned to this base were killed before they knew what was going on. The Italians were indeed quite seasoned troops, but their numbers began to drop bit by bit. Blood-stained corpses were scattered all across the base... At first, it had probably been a proper gunfight. However, as their minds began to grow weary and numb, it devolved into that most basic cause of wars throughout humanity, the desire to kill all foreigners you don't understand... Whenever they heard words they didn't understand, they pulled the trigger. By that point, the screams of foreigners sounded no different from those of man-shaped beasts. After all, they couldn't understand pleading in another language. So, it had long ago turned into a mere massacre... As the number of dead surpassed the number of living, silence began to return to the base. Just when it felt as though everyone had died and the desolate sound of the wind blew through the caves, there would be a sudden scream, the crisp sound of a gun, and one would remember that the massacre wasn't yet over.  BGM: None ...It marked the pitiful end for those led astray by gold. The leader of the Italian soldiers, Angelo, had managed to survive somehow. He encountered... nothing but the corpses of friend and foe. All was quiet once more in the base. If he was careless enough to call out, he might be shot from the shadows somewhere. So, he snuck about like a panther, breathing quietly and searching for the remaining enemies... There was no sign or trace of any living person. Maybe all of the people in this base had died.  The Japanese struck first, but at that time, we were also talking about killing them. They simply made the first move as military men. So, perhaps we should be grateful to them. By the time the boat came to take us away, there would have been no honor for us. We would have been mere failures in our mission, unfit to face our dead comrades. Perhaps dying here in the Far East alongside my gun... is a more fitting end for a soldier. I noticed the sound of shuffling feet coming from around the corner and strained to hear. Is someone seriously wounded and dragging their feet? Noticing them before they notice me greatly helps my chances. At this stage, there's no point in taking prisoners. We must dispose of all the Japanese. I'll dash around the corner, quickly check to see who they are, and shoot if it's a Japanese person. Nothing more. I've been hiding my footsteps the whole time. They probably don't know I'm here. Once the shuffling footsteps had come close enough, Angelo leaned around the corner and raised his gun. The voice that reached him... spoke Italian.  BGM: Golden Slaughterer 「...?! Y, you...!!」 "Heheheh, I've been looking for you, Ensign Angelo... That makes all of you. I've been counting Italian corpses, you see...!!" 「E, Ensign Angelo!! Are you okay?!」Blood poured from Angelo's chest, his gun fell to the floor, then his knees, and then the rest of his body crumpled... and stopped moving. Yamamoto's accuracy with a gun wasn't particularly stellar. However, Angelo had waited until they were fairly close before jumping out, so Yamamoto had made the shot. He had managed to hit, even with a short-barreled handgun in one hand... and a woman as a hostage in the other. "Really, though, our Rokkenjima garrison was pathetic! Am I the only one who's not dead?! Trash, all of them!" 「Can't you fight without using a woman as a shield, you brute?!! Let go!」 "Quiet! Noisy, these Italian girls. If you'd just be cooperative, I'd at least spare your life. Heheheh!"It was such an obvious lie that even he wore a bitter smile. 'The Italians were spies working for the enemy, and they all died along with the garrison in a gunfight'. Since this was the story Yamamoto wanted to tell, he couldn't afford to have any Italian survivors. By this point, he wouldn't be able to keep the entire pile of gold, but he should be able to grab as many as he could carry. Even that would be worth a huge amount of money. Beatrice suddenly swung her head, smashing Yamamoto's nose hard. 「Someone, help! Someoooooone!!! aaah!!」 "Y, you... bitch... Ngaaah..."She almost managed to escape. However, Yamamoto quickly grabbed her leg and tripped her. She fell onto her back, and Yamamoto mercilessly stomped his foot down on her stomach and pointed his gun at her. "Heheheh, I don't make a hobby of taming tomboys...! Die!!" Kinzo had jumped out from the shadows. He was holding a gun he had stolen from one of the corpses. "Hmmm? Ushiromiya? Ah, so you're alive!" "Let go! You're hurting her...!!" "...It was you, wasn't it? You tipped the Italians off." "What are you talking about...?!"Yamamoto didn't know that the grenade had been a dud. The surprise attack, which he had been certain would work, had failed, so he had decided that Kinzo must have tipped them off. "It's your fault the surprise attack failed and we're stuck like this! You turncoat, you traitor to your country... I know you've been working with them through this woman!" "Can't you see that you caused all this because you were blinded by gold?!" "<Run, Kinzo! This man has shot people begging for their lives! He'll shoot you too!>" "Don't talk, Italian! If you open your mouth again, I won't hesitate to shoot." "<I, it hurts... ggaahhh...>"Yamamoto ground his heel into Beatrice's gut.  "Stop it, stop it!! She has nothing to do with this!!" "Oho? Are you pointing a gun at a superior officer? Stop and think a bit, fool. If we agree to keep to the same story, we can have that pile of gold all to ourselves, right? I could only grab a few for myself, but if we work together, we can sneak off with even more. I don't mean this as your superior officer. Let's split it between us as men." "Haven't you already killed the last people you said you'd split the gold with?!" "Tch. Ushiromiya, looks like you prefer lead to gold!!"Without any hesitation, Yamamoto raised the barrel of his gun towards Kinzo and pulled the trigger. It grazed Kinzo's right ear. If Yamamoto's aim had been just a bit better, the bullet would have slammed into Kinzo's face. "<Kinzo?! H, how could you?!!>" "You... gyah?!?!"Not letting Yamamoto's momentary distraction go to waste, Beatrice lashed out and planted her right foot in Yamamoto's crotch. After moaning in pain, a demonic expression flashed across Yamamoto's face, and he stomped on her chest. "<Bice!!>" "You biiiiitch!! Diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiee!!"Beatrice shut her eyes tightly, hoping that she could withstand the coming pain. No one would want to have their eyes open at the moment they've been shot...  BGM: None Drip, drip drip... A blood splash poured out of Yamamoto's chest. "Just as you took many lives for your own sake, I take your life... for mine."Could Yamamoto hear Kinzo's words until the end? In his last moments, Yamamoto seemed to grin. Then, slowly, he fell backwards with a spurt of blood.  BGM: Moonlit Night Beatrice tried to stand up, but then doubled over and started coughing. "<Bice! Are you hurt...?!>" "<...My ribs are hurting. That brute really was stomping them hard.>" "<Will you be alright...? I hope they aren't broken...>" "<Italian women don't break so easily. But... thanks. I owe you my life. If you hadn't come, it'd have all ended there. Ggh...>"Yamamoto had shown no mercy. Her ribs were probably cracked. We didn't have the option of waiting, possibly for several days, for the ship that was coming. I made the decision to carry her away from this island. The man who kept yelling about preserving the secrecy of the base is lying there dead. The next island over, Niijima, is close. A small boat should be able to take us there.  "<I need to take you to a hospital. The wound might be more serious than you realize.>" "<...That's interesting. Never knew there was a hospital on this island.>" "<There isn't. I'll use a boat to take you to the next island. To a hospital. If we don't clean up the mess on this island, it'll mean a court-martial.>" "<Why...?>" "<If we go to a hospital and the embassy is contacted, I'll eventually be sent back to Italy. If that happens, I'll be interrogated about all kinds of things. I won't acknowledge those people, who let Mama die.>" "<...>" "<There's no homeland for me to return to now. This is the end for me. So, there's nowhere I want to go anymore. Ensign Angelo, Rubens, everyone who was so kind to me... they're all dead.>" "<And because of that, you want to die here too? I thought you said Italian women weren't weak. Live.>" "<Hey, Kinzo? What does it mean... to live? You're the one who taught me, aren't you? Living is more than just breathing. I don't want to go back to Italy.>" "<...Bice.>" "<You've said that you were dead until you met me. But it's the same for me. I died in that submarine. My homeland fell, Mama died. Even Papa died. I prayed that our sub would just sink to the bottom of the ocean. So, when we reached this place, I was actually disappointed that we'd survived. Then, right after that, Ensign Angelo started asking whether anyone could speak English.>"When Kinzo met Beatrice, he finally forgot about dying. And when Beatrice met Kinzo... she also forgot about dying.  "<I... now that I've lost my homeland, my family, my friends, I wish you would kidnap me.>" "<...Bice...>" "<But, I know that's a wish that couldn't come true. So, at the very least, I want to be with you until the boat comes for us. I don't care about the pain in my chest. After all, when the boat comes and takes me away, I'll die.>"Beatrice spoke this, smiling softly. She did her best to hide the pain in her chest.  BGM: None "<...That's a wish... I cannot grant.>"Looking apologetic, Kinzo lifted Beato up and gently sat her in the boat. "<...Coward. So, Japanese men are weak after all.>" "<You're right. I am a coward. So, I can only grant you half of your wish.>"With a clunk, he placed 'it', wrapped in a jacket, in the boat.  "<What do you mean...?>" BGM: Far "<...Huh? What do you mean?>" "<Kidnapping you. That part, I will do.>" "<...K, Kinzo...>"There has to be a doctor on Niijima. I'm wearing a Navy uniform. I should be able to pass myself off as a survivor of a boat carrying a VIP that was sunk by enemy ships. If the doctor happens to be of the greedy sort, all the better. After all, I have right here the golden magic to make people do what I say. The witch... from a distant country, who took my lifeless body and gave me a soul. The woman who came to me with the gold... revived me with her magic.  "<*giggle*. Yes, the Golden Witch. Even though I use the same recipe as everyone else, only my alchemy can turn pasta into a smoking black heap.>" "<Haha, hahahahahahahahaha.>" "<...Just like you, I'm nothing but a corpse allowed to live just as long as you're with me. If you go, I'll die straight away.>" "<I won't let you die.>" "<Really?>" "<No matter what.>" "<Take some responsibility. After all, you're the one kidnapping me.>" BGM: Fall  "Then, wait, it was you?! You're the Niijima doctor that Grandfather took Beatrice to...?" "Why so shocked? It should've leapt to the mind ever since the words 'Niijima doctor' showed up." "All of a sudden, a soldier of the Navy appeared along with a foreign woman. Of course, I was astounded. And then, he actually told me to treat her wounds confidentially, since their presence was a military secret." "Was that the first time you met Grandfather...?" "...Yes. That was when we first met." "So, you're the greedy doctor who followed orders for the sake of the gold?" "That's a bit harsh... He suddenly brought in a foreign woman patient, told me it was a military secret, promised that he'd pay the medical fees later, and handed me a gold ingot as collateral. I didn't want to get involved with any funny business. I was reluctant to say the least." "I see your point. But in the end, you did conceal Beatrice, didn't you?" "I may not be as skilled as Kinzo, but I do have some familiarity with English. I managed to overhear part of their conversation, and that was enough to convince me that they were not troublesome people." "*cough* Of course, if I were to say that the ingot didn't tempt me, that would be a lie. I was much younger then, you see." "What happened to her next?" "I treated her for some time before a messenger from the Ushiromiya family came and said that she would be moved to Odawara. They took her away." "So Grandfather didn't come to get her himself?" "Regardless of how Kinzo explained away the incident on Rokkenjima, he probably wouldn't be able to move about freely for some time afterwards." "Precisely. Kinzo-san has said that deceiving the military was the greatest challenge of his life." "So, Beatrice went to Odawara, and then what...?" "I have heard that she hid in one of their unused villas. After all, Kinzo already had a family at that time. It must have been tricky to manage." "So, leading a double life was nothing new for Kinzo, even before Kuwadorian." "Whoosh." "...Tch." "And later on? Beatrice and Grandfather continued their happy relationship in the villa from then on...?" "I have heard that it was a modest, peaceful life, Several years later, they had a child." "...So, Kuwadorian's Beatrice was born." "You don't mean... she died?!" "Don't be surprised. Kinzo believed his daughter was Beatrice reborn. You can't ignore the heart. It's possible to reason it out." "Y, you're right. My apologies." "I don't know how many years Kinzo-san spent with her in Odawara. However, judging by Kinzo-san as we know him afterwards... Even if it was only a few years, one can tell how deeply he loved her." "...I see." "So then, he made Kuwadorian for his daughter..." "Kinzo-san cleverly made use of the submarine's gold to build up a fortune in a flash. Then, he made use of his considerable skills in English to make connections with the GHQ, becoming immensely wealthy in a short span of time. There's no need to explain this part to you, Lion-san." "...Yes. He used that vast wealth... bought Rokkenjima, and built the mansion. The remaining relatives in Odawara scoffed at Grandfather, thinking he was crazy to buy an entire deserted island." "If you could carry 10 tons of gold around in your pocket, Kinzo probably wouldn't have bought Rokkenjima."He hid the gold somewhere in Rokkenjima, built up a fortune with the ingots he'd taken out of it, and then bought up the whole treasure island...  "...What about the mark of the One-winged Eagle that was supposedly pressed into the ingots?" "The One-winged Eagle... Or, more precisely, an eagle of which only one wing is visible." "What do you mean?" "You see it often in Europe, do you not? A crest or coat of arms with an eagle spreading its wings on it. The flag of the Salo Republic also had an eagle... or was it a hawk? At any rate, it had some bird of that type emblazoned on it." "So, the imprint was made too lightly... or else it was poorly done." "Correct. They used a rough, wartime press. It was probably supposed to look like the crest of an eagle spreading its wings. It was pressed in at a slight slant, so half of it was too light to see." "So half of the eagle spreading its wings disappeared, making it look like a One-winged Eagle?" "Kinzo thought the seal on the gold of Beatrice, the woman who had changed his fate, looked like a One-winged Eagle. That must be why he decided to make that his own crest." "...If the imprint had been made correctly, it would have been the eagle of the Salo Republic's flag, or could it have been the two-headed..." "...No, no, of course not. Passing the night away with Kinzo-san in front of that massive pile of gold, drinking and wondering, was truly an enjoyable experience." "However, Kinzo-san didn't want people using that seal to figure out where the gold had come from. The gold he took outside was all re-pressed with the One-winged Eagle design he had created." "And all he did was show you the gold? What a cheapskate." "Of course, after he became immensely rich, Kinzo-san came to me once more, saying that he'd pay me in full for the overdue medical expenses. The amount he came with was a bit much for medical fees. Though I did make sure to give him his change." "And you've been friends ever since...?" "Yes. Kinzo-san was extremely grateful to me for keeping his secret and concealing Beatrice." "...Grandfather always says that the old relatives in Odawara were a bunch of greedy liars. I'm sure he appreciated your strong sense of duty, Doctor Nanjo. I think I understand why a person like Grandfather came to trust you." "I also had some interest in foreign countries, as well as a hobby of playing chess. Kinzo-san and I have gotten along well ever since. It was a friendship that built up gradually, but grew strong before we knew it. Yes, we have been friends a very long time..." "People who deal with large amounts of money are quite mindful of small amounts as well. When you refused to accept anything more than the medical fees, that must have earned you his admiration." "Ridiculous. I was just frightened by the large quantity of the money. I began to regret it later, wahahahaha. It seems I've never had real guts." "No need to worry there. Guts are one thing you've got no shortage of." "You think so? Well, I appreciate the flattery." "That wasn't flattery." "...?" Of course, Natsuhi must have given him some hush money. Still, there could be no doubt that he'd had enough guts to withstand the pressure from Kinzo's children for a long time, without slipping up once... "Now that's something that'd take real guts. That sense of duty must be part of your personality." "...Hahahah. Perhaps that is my only redeeming quality..." 
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Jul 12, 2017 13:30
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witchcore ricepunk posted:Pleaaaase let Beatrice 2 just be some rando 
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Jul 12, 2017 15:00
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Huh, so it looks like Kinzo and Bice did have a good relationship after all. Or at least that's what Nanjo believes. I guess if it is true then death in child-birth, leaving behind a baby that looks exactly like her, is a good explanation of why Kinzo'd get obsessive, not a good reason but still...
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Jul 12, 2017 15:07
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Wow. So the love story between Kinzo and Bice was entirely genuine, and no lie. There was no twist, no secret betrayal on her or his part: there was just a load of gold, and a lot of desperate men who killed each other for it, which our lovers stayed completely out of it, except for Kinzo to kill the man threatening his lover, like out of the old romances. It's... sweet, dare I say, a magnificent love story over which to swoon, and this formed the bedrock of this islands tale. So I suppose now that that part is known, all that's left to say is: gently caress you, Kinzo. No, seriously, gently caress you, you hypocritical, cowardly piece of poo poo. You transported this woman to your secret villa, all under the nose of your wife, and you lead this double life, and expect me to applaud you and say your living the dream? Am I supposed to find it "cute" and "uplifting" that you've found your happiness, while your poor wife waits at home and goes mad due to your negligence? She probably didn't want this marriage any more than you did; if you did not love her, you could have at least commiserated with her or tried to find a way to make he happy at least, but do you even know her loving name? And you're telling me Bice herself was all right with this, completely, that you went home for weeks at a time to be with people you didn't even like? Was Bice all right with the way you treated your wife and kids, never once wanted to meet them or anything? You could have divorced your wife after you've found the gold, and married her legitimately; from the little I know of Bice, I'm pretty sure your children would vastly have preffered her company to yours, but no-that would have let them in on your secret, wouldn't it? Coward. Pissant. What did you think all of your familial obligations would disappear the moment you found somebody special? Your eldest son was terrified of you! Thought you beat and screamed at the servants the way you did with him! Did you have any kind of positive interaction with him, at all, or did you just ignore him because he was your wife's child and not part of your glorious romance? What about Eva, your first born girl? You saddled her with this goddamn misogynist crap you don't even loving believe, when you knew this amazing, strong woman- you never thought to tell her about the amazing example you knew in Bice? And you're surprised when your younger son turns out to be a philanderer, that your younger daughter fucks off from home every time flips out and beats her own daughter- they learned it from YOU, Dad, they learned it by watching YOU! And you have the nerve, the absolute gall, to complain about your legacy after all of this- no, fucker. No. You do not get to be absent from your children's lives and then piss and moan about what disasters they are, because the biggest disaster is you, you prick! You had just better goddamn hope that Cliff Baby isn't where I think they're from, because I am led to that dark conclusion by the staggering weakness of spirit you demonstrate- WEAK! You're a WEAK CHOPPER!! Never have I seen such weakness, such stupidity, such pettyminded meanness... Oh, Battler, I'm so sorry. I take you in my arms and I'm holding you in love because I'm sorry, and all is forgiven- I take back everything I have said about you and wish I could erase it, because you were just a boy out of your league against completely awful odds, and I shouldn't have lost it. You are a good boy, and the worst parts of you are nothing compared to the tower of spite and horror that is your grandsire. I put my rage on you, but my rage was sorely misplaced. I still know not where this journey leads, but a certainty fills me now that I now spit upon the world in blue: Kinzo Ushiromiya, THIS. IS. YOUR. FAULT.
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Jul 12, 2017 15:11
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Still upset that there's no pointing version of crying sorcerer Battler
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Jul 12, 2017 15:21
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Jul 12, 2017 15:22
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Rodyle posted:Still upset that there's no pointing version of crying sorcerer Battler The crying point 'exists'!
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Jul 12, 2017 15:34
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resurgam40 posted:gloriousness This makes me want to simultaneously give you a standing ovation AND group hug you and Battler at the same time. 
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Jul 12, 2017 16:14
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Graylien posted:Huh, so it looks like Kinzo and Bice did have a good relationship after all. Or at least that's what Nanjo believes. I guess if it is true then death in child-birth, leaving behind a baby that looks exactly like her, is a good explanation of why Kinzo'd get obsessive, not a good reason but still... Yeah, it's kind of curious, because it doesn't seem consistent with Current Beatrice's claim in Episode 3 that Kinzo's love for Beatrice was unrequited and her strong implication that Original Beatrice committed suicide to escape from him. Then again, considering when we know Beatrices 1 and 2 died, Current Beatrice's direct knowledge of both of them is presumably basically nil; I suppose she may have just been projecting her own frustration and despair onto Original Beatrice there.
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Jul 12, 2017 16:16
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You know, if we take this story specifically as Kinzo's telling of it and think of Kinzo as an unreliable narrator, it does have an air of "I swear officer, she wanted me to kidnap her" to it.
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Jul 12, 2017 16:28
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ZiegeDame posted:You know, if we take this story specifically as Kinzo's telling of it and think of Kinzo as an unreliable narrator, it does have an air of "I swear officer, she wanted me to kidnap her" to it. That's true, but I noticed while I was reading this update that there's a brief passage that switches to first person from Angelo's point of view, so I'm not sure how well that holds up: ProfessorProf posted:The leader of the Italian soldiers, Angelo, had managed to survive somehow. He encountered... nothing but the corpses of friend and foe. All was quiet once more in the base. If he was careless enough to call out, he might be shot from the shadows somewhere. So, he snuck about like a panther, breathing quietly and searching for the remaining enemies... It probably comes down to a question of exactly how the "theatregoing authority" works, I guess?
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Jul 12, 2017 16:35
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I feel like this would be the update to sing Cat's in the cradle, especially after resugram40's latest hit. Still holding on to that for Rudolf's eventual confession, if that ever happens.
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Jul 12, 2017 16:40
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You know, thinking about it again, at any point in this story did Kinzo actually tell Bice that he has a wife and two kids?
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Jul 12, 2017 17:00
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ZiegeDame posted:You know, thinking about it again, at any point in this story did Kinzo actually tell Bice that he has a wife and two kids?
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Jul 12, 2017 17:16
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Confused Llama posted:I suppose she may have just been projecting her own frustration and despair onto Original Beatrice there. umineko.text I'm making a facetious reply, but honestly you put into words what I've been thinking about this story for a while now. There's been a lot how-dunnit discussion in the past with narrative conceit, but projecting complex internal issues and solutions is the why-dunnit part. In regards to this update, it's nice that we're getting cheating comments from Will cutting into Kinzo's tale of pure love, but I'm wondering if the commentary will become more accusing since from Kinzo's perspective everything was bittersweet, but for everyone else it was hell. I wonder...
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Jul 12, 2017 17:24
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I think resurgam really hit the nail on the head wrt how i feel about kinzo personally. I do have a lot of sympathy for his circumstances and the sincerity of the love between himself and Bice. But man, every choice he made was utterly vile. And I think the story knows it. The choices he had to make would have been hard, but throwing away position and power for love is a choice you have to make. Trying to have things both ways is, at best, the act of a coward. unwilling to sacrifice anything for love. And we know what the story thinks about that. Im not even going to get into what happened with beato 2. At this point, nothing remains to be said.
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Jul 12, 2017 17:37
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ZiegeDame posted:You know, thinking about it again, at any point in this story did Kinzo actually tell Bice that he has a wife and two kids? I've been thinking about that. Bice probably lived in seclusion in Odawara, since even Kinzo's kids had no idea if she actually existed. She couldn't be honest about why she was there or who it was she loved. After Rokkenjima, she just existed for Kinzo. It sounds... awful. And it sounds like a running theme here, of the dangers of love without self-love.
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Jul 12, 2017 17:44
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I assume he rationalized his behavior towards OG Beatrice. I mean, it's not hard to guess how the reasoning goes. He can't reveal her existence at all, so he can't just out and out marry her publicly. So to be as honest as he could be, he'd have to divorce his wife and go live in "seclusion". And it wouldn't be hard to go from that to "why even divorce her, it's just going to make her situation and that of my kids that much worse". Plus, I assume Japanese laws and customs involving marriage and divorce in that era were painfully regressive. None of the options are particularly good for anyone in this situation, although it's hard to see how "live double life and be super lovely to your kids and their mother" could possibly be the best one. His behavior towards Beatrice the Second is the result of mental illness. It's obvious from this last update (and the three preceding) that he and Beatrice were both terribly broken people; they both state that the other person is their only reason for even living, which sounds romantic as hell until you think about what that actually means if it's taken literally, as they are both taking it. Once she was dead, this idea that she'd somehow been reborn in her daughter was the only thing he could cling to to even make his life worth living. Even now, telling the story, he's lying to himself about it; he says it was starting to work, and that she'd eventually have remembered herself. He says this in the same conversation where he admits that what he did was wrong and that she wasn't Beatrice. This is not how even vaguely rational people behave (you know, in case the magic obsession and the epitaph and all that poo poo weren't evidence enough). It's hard to blame him, not because his actions are in any way justifiable, but just because I'm not sure he would be mentally competent to make any kind of decision at all. In a lot of ways I place more blame on the people around him, particularly Nanjo, the one here who says he didn't have any guts. When you're a doctor and your friend is mentally ill, you have both personal and professional obligations you ought to act on, but of course he was in too deep at that point. They all were. If any of this got out, everyone involved in the Kuwadorian operation could be jailed for a variety of offenses. I guess that makes it a lot easier to talk about the noble and enduring love of your friend and ignore his terrible crimes.
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Jul 12, 2017 18:19
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oath2order posted:I do have a lot of sympathy for his circumstances and the sincerity of the love between himself and Bice. But man, every choice he made was utterly vile. And I think the story knows it. I mean, this isn't really a new development. This entire narrative has been a story about objectively terrible people who you nevertheless feel sorry for and even sometimes kind of like because you understand how they ended up where they are.
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Jul 12, 2017 18:27
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I think resurgam sums up what my response would be if I allowed my emotions to take command. I cannot say that I don't have a bit of sympathy for Kinzo. But even if I take this into account, it in no way justifies how he treated his wife and kids. I'm not sure if how Eva treats marriage is a consequence of her mother's opinion on the subject, given the mother's been basically nonexistent - I can't remember if her name was ever even mentioned. I also went back to see if he ever really noticed Bice being a strong woman, and I have to conclude that he didn't really - the only one he remembered was the one who was forced to devote everything she had to him because she had nothing else. As far as I can tell, that's what he took as his life lesson for how women should act, and that's kinda depressing that it's all he really noticed of her. Confused Llama posted:Yeah, it's kind of curious, because it doesn't seem consistent with Current Beatrice's claim in Episode 3 that Kinzo's love for Beatrice was unrequited and her strong implication that Original Beatrice committed suicide to escape from him. Then again, considering when we know Beatrices 1 and 2 died, Current Beatrice's direct knowledge of both of them is presumably basically nil; I suppose she may have just been projecting her own frustration and despair onto Original Beatrice there. It's implied Beatrice 1 died in childbirth, so 2 would barely know anything of her, let alone 3. Projection is indeed the most likely answer here. lotus circle posted:When talking with her on the island he outright said he had no family. So yeah, it wouldn't surprise me at all that he lied to Bice and never actually said he had a double life. In the same way that his wife suspected, I wouldn't be surprised if Bice suspected as well.
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Jul 12, 2017 19:41
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Umineko is primarily interested in tracing back the root causes for what make people do terrible things. I think Rosa is a great example of this in particular. I don't think anyone is particularly inclined to forgive rosa for the absurd cruelty she throws on maria. And yet...it is undeniable that she is playing the hand she was dealt in responds to the terrible things that happened to her. Ultimately, people in umineko are, time and time again, asked to make the hard but good choice. And almost always, they reject it.
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Jul 12, 2017 20:08
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I can't imagine Beatrice didn't know. There's really no reason for Kinzo not to have told her, apart from "she might not want to be with him anymore", but it's tough to see how that happens in this situation. It's easy for him to cast it in that same romantic light. You know, loveless marriage forced on him by others, etc etc., that whole thing. It's going to be a lot simpler to arrange his schedule if at least one of the parties knows.
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Jul 12, 2017 20:09
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oath2order posted:Ultimately, people in umineko are, time and time again, asked to make the hard but good choice. And almost always, they reject it. Except for the cousins.
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Jul 12, 2017 20:11
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It's implied Kinzo was actually a better family man after he met Beatrice. Before her death set him on the road to madness and he became the terror he was remembered as.
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Jul 12, 2017 20:13
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curiousCat posted:Except for the cousins. I mean  they tried
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Jul 12, 2017 20:20
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That's a beautiful page. I understand that Kinzo had his own problems, but I find he's just so hard to empathise with, even given this flashback story. I know that Umineko is all about nuance and understanding why people are terrible and sympathising with them despite them being terrible, but it just doesn't work for me re Kinzo. I feel much more sympathy for the next generation, even for, say, Rosa.
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Jul 12, 2017 20:59
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what happened to Erika btw
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Jul 12, 2017 21:42
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Tired Moritz posted:what happened to Erika btw 
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Jul 12, 2017 21:42
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Tired Moritz posted:what happened to Erika btw 
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Jul 12, 2017 21:51
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Tired Moritz posted:what happened to Erika btw Now, Moritz, I know that it's easy to get confused with how many characters this series has, but I'm certain that there aren't any characters in this named Erika. When Bern said that she'd throw Erika into the void if she failed again, she MEANT it.
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Jul 13, 2017 00:00
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All the guilty characters are dead! Hooray!
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Jul 13, 2017 00:10
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| # ? Jun 3, 2024 05:40 |
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Sordas Volantyr posted:Now, Moritz, I know that it's easy to get confused with how many characters this series has, but I'm certain that there aren't any characters in this named Erika. >doog< (Bern is a Bad Person, although I appreciate person isn't the right word here maybe...)
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Jul 13, 2017 00:49
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