|
your friend a dog posted:no it was some little one. id like to go to a big one but not if its more of the same where i hit a guy 6 times in a row and neither him nor the judges say anything Judging for rapier is very hard. That sucks though
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2017 03:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 13:50 |
|
|
I can understand that judging for rapier is hard, which is why in my circle (SCA) its on the fighters to call their own shots. I can understand the reasoning behind judges and why they dont want fighters to say anything, but I'm curious if thats a common attitude across hema
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2017 05:23
|
|
|
Did you ask any of them why they didn't score your hits? Bear in mind that no referee likes that judgement challenged, but if you phrase it like: "I thought I scored several good hits that didn't get called. What do you think I should work on to get those calls next time?" you're almost guaranteed to get a decent answer. This is assuming that there's more to scoring than just getting the hit.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2017 06:37
|
|
|
I was a guest there, and the skill level difference between me and the other fighters was high enough that I didnt want to come off as whining because I had been "cheated". I thought about talking to the organizer a bit, but decided against it. I know why they didn't see the shots (too fast to see/complicated binds that are hard to see from the side) - its just the fact that they couldnt see them, and that HEMA fighters apparently dont call hits on themselves that worries me.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2017 07:54
|
|
|
Fencing judging has never been good, imo. But I do wonder why rapier tournaments don't use chalked tips or something to help judging.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2017 12:31
|
|
|
Definitely talk to the organizers in a respectful way. Odds are they already know judging sucks because it always does, but specific feedback still helps. In longsword at least there's edge alignment and other stuff that makes some hits not really hits so I get why they don't want people calling their own hits in competition.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2017 15:28
|
|
|
There's a couple issues regarding HEMA rapier. HEMAists who practice rapier don't usually do so exclusively, or it's likely not their primary weapon (which is typically longsword). They don't practice enough rapier to be good at rapier, but they also want to compete in it, so it turns into a weird sidesword match instead. Rules are just now catching up in order to literally force people to do more effective rapier stuff. For example, not allowing cutting at all because people just start throwing cuts left and right, hitting with the tip of the weapon (or more likely, the flat), and start ignoring thrusts because they don't know how to close off the line of attack. What ends up happening is experienced rapierists lead the rapier events at particular tournaments, then usually don't come back because "these people aren't doing rapier". Also, since rapier isn't a primary weapon for so many people, and because rapier is - by its nature as a fast weapon - difficult to judge, the judging is almost always worse than you'd find in other categories. I'm against the use of things like chalk because it provides too many false positives in terms of touches-vs-solid hits/thrusts. The judging and the competition needs to get better, and rapier tournaments need to be more selective with their entrants because otherwise attribute fencers will come in, flail around, and not actually respect the weapon they're fighting with.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2017 15:32
|
|
|
Verisimilidude posted:There's a couple issues regarding HEMA rapier. HEMAists who practice rapier don't usually do so exclusively, or it's likely not their primary weapon (which is typically longsword). I wonder if this is a regional thing? Most of my HEMA friends who do rapier do it more or less exclusively (but then the South of England seems to be a bit of a hotbed for rapier)
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2017 16:30
|
|
|
Verisimilidude posted:There's a couple issues regarding HEMA rapier. HEMAists who practice rapier don't usually do so exclusively, or it's likely not their primary weapon (which is typically longsword). They don't practice enough rapier to be good at rapier, but they also want to compete in it, so it turns into a weird sidesword match instead. Rules are just now catching up in order to literally force people to do more effective rapier stuff. For example, not allowing cutting at all because people just start throwing cuts left and right, hitting with the tip of the weapon (or more likely, the flat), and start ignoring thrusts because they don't know how to close off the line of attack. What ends up happening is experienced rapierists lead the rapier events at particular tournaments, then usually don't come back because "these people aren't doing rapier". One would think you could utilize an electronic touch/scoring system similar to FIE Epee for rapier.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2017 16:57
|
|
|
The shitfit on facebook would be magical. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2017 18:14
|
|
|
I gotta say I feel a bit bad for all the hardworking HEMA judges out there, they've got a rotten job. The jackets are black, the blunts are black, there's fifteen thousand rulesets with fifteen thousand scores and signals, they're watching both fencers at once and there's never enough people so they spend the entire loving day judging. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2017 18:26
|
|
|
DandyLion posted:One would think you could utilize an electronic touch/scoring system similar to FIE Epee for rapier. That would cause the same false-positive as chalk: touches being considered hits. I'm a big fan of "a noticeable bend on the blade", but I'm only one judge out of four, and sometimes I can't get a good angle on the thrust. Siivola posted:I gotta say I feel a bit bad for all the hardworking HEMA judges out there, they've got a rotten job. The jackets are black, the blunts are black, there's fifteen thousand rulesets with fifteen thousand scores and signals, they're watching both fencers at once and there's never enough people so they spend the entire loving day judging. Being a judge sucks, but eventually you just stop caring about how the fighters feel. As a fighter you have to consider that if the four judges AND the director all didn't call something because they all honestly didn't see something, then idk what to tell you.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2017 21:31
|
|
|
HEMA COULD just have a culture where fencers call their own shots, making judging so much easier, and leaving them to make judgement calls when there's a disagreement
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2017 21:33
|
|
|
I don't want to go "is the bib one or two points, and was that really a 'hit' anyway" while I'm fencing.  Verisimilidude posted:Being a judge sucks, but eventually you just stop caring about how the fighters feel. As a fighter you have to consider that if the four judges AND the director all didn't call something because they all honestly didn't see something, then idk what to tell you.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2017 22:19
|
|
|
Siivola posted:I don't want to go "is the bib one or two points, and was that really a 'hit' anyway" while I'm fencing. Requiring colored tips would be a good start though. Also swords which noticeably bend (especially in longsword).
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2017 22:27
|
|
|
Verisimilidude posted:Being a judge sucks, but eventually you just stop caring about how the fighters feel. As a fighter you have to consider that if the four judges AND the director all didn't call something because they all honestly didn't see something, then idk what to tell you. If an action falls in the woods and a ref can't see it, did it really happen?
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2017 22:33
|
|
|
Video replay! I want a replay! What do you mean I've already used all my replays!Verisimilidude posted:Also swords which noticeably bend (especially in longsword). 
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2017 22:40
|
|
|
Siivola posted:Video replay! I want a replay! What do you mean I've already used all my replays! Don't even get me started, especially since seeing the reactions to a hema celebrity saying "maybe we should tone down the force in tournaments so we don't have insane injury rates?"
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 04:18
|
|
|
There are some people who go in the other direction. Marco Danelli has made some rather barbed comments about people going too softly. I don't worry too much about injuries, but I've been rather careful when drilling. I was learning some Fiore from someone and we were using spatula tipped steel feders.  He was telling me to stab into him when I could. So mainly his torso. I felt rather worried about this and he told me to go harder. People who don't use any protection scare me, but if we have the right amount, I don't think injuries are a problem. My club spars pretty hard, but the worst we've had was me lunging and getting whacked in the face with a staff, which made me black out for a few seconds.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 10:44
|
|
|
That's called a concussion. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 11:01
|
|
|
Hazzard posted:There are some people who go in the other direction. Marco Danelli has made some rather barbed comments about people going too softly. Concussions are no joke and I hope you got checked out at a doctor afterwards. You don't wanna go too soft, sure, but I also don't see a reason to go too insanely hard either. It doesn't take much force to cut effectively, and more often than not added speed just makes it more difficult to align your edge correctly. People get too sucked into the competitive form of sparring, and in tournaments it's even worse. You can make an action explosive without injuring your opponent, and despite all of our gear and precautions we have insanely high injury rates.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 12:13
|
|
|
I didn't go to a doctor. In hindsight I should have, but this is over a year on and I'm fine. This headache that suddenly set in is probably psychosomatic. I'm aware in the past, I was accidentally hitting too hard during a drill. Without realising it, I was putting force into a cut that I wouldn't be able to do in a fight. I was shifting my body slightly and in the words of my partner "You're nearly knocking my block off." So I think in drilling, there can be a point, but you can't hit as hard in sparring as you can in drilling. Although there's someone in my club who hits very hard and I wish he didn't. He is difficult to fight, because sometimes he will moulinette the sword very hard, I get scared and block in hanging guard, with my arm moving out of line to block the blow more easily and then my wrist gets whacked. Edit: I sparred with him again last night. I did much better once I got over the fear of being hit. Hazzard fucked around with this message at 09:41 on Jul 14, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 14:39
|
|
|
I've had people tell me to hit them harder and I'm like "No, I'm good".
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 14:05
|
|
|
Said bloke in the longsword example uses the term dominant and submissive hand for teaching wrestling. He said he needs a new term because everyone's mind goes elsewhere when he says that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 19:51
|
|
|
Verisimilidude posted:Don't even get me started, especially since seeing the reactions to a hema celebrity saying "maybe we should tone down the force in tournaments so we don't have insane injury rates?"
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2017 22:34
|
|
|
Siivola posted:This was a few days ago, but could you elaborate a bit? This has popped up on my timelines once or twice now and I'm curious what the context is. A respected HEMAist posted on social media about how the injury rates in HEMA are too high, and how people go into tournaments with a "crush your opponent" mindset. This mindset leads to people swinging way harder than need to in order to be an effective swordsman, and leads to a lot of unnecessary injury. Injury rates in sparring are also pretty high, and a lot of schools don't come down on students who hit way too hard. The response was a mix of approval and dismissal.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2017 15:49
|
|
|
I was trying to get a name so I could go read it myself, but turns out the list of HEMA celebrities isn't actually all that long.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2017 17:04
|
|
|
that's weird, in my experience americans are really tentative (and...emotionally weird?) about hitting you
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2017 17:08
|
|
|
More or less weird than about nudity?
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2017 17:35
|
|
|
Siivola posted:More or less weird than about nudity?
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2017 17:54
|
|
|
Most people I know, myself included, have found it difficult to hit people when they first start. I was teaching some ex-reenactors today and they were having problems hitting me, then hitting my with any degree of force. People often groan loudly when whacked, whoever hit them is very sorry, but nobody minds being hit, because this is a martial art. I do regret selling my Spes jacket though.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2017 19:31
|
|
|
Verisimilidude posted:A respected HEMAist posted on social media about how the injury rates in HEMA are too high, and how people go into tournaments with a "crush your opponent" mindset. This mindset leads to people swinging way harder than need to in order to be an effective swordsman, and leads to a lot of unnecessary injury. Injury rates in sparring are also pretty high, and a lot of schools don't come down on students who hit way too hard. Dismissal of this (changing the mindset of fencers) being a way to combat injuries or dismissal of the fact that injury rates are too high in competitions? For the second, my understanding is that it's kind of a big issue and should be solved. I believe you mentioned a couple of years ago there were numerous broken bones at one of the major tourneys? If that's still the case, that ain't cool.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2017 23:20
|
|
|
BirdOfPlay posted:Dismissal of this (changing the mindset of fencers) being a way to combat injuries or dismissal of the fact that injury rates are too high in competitions? For the second, my understanding is that it's kind of a big issue and should be solved. I believe you mentioned a couple of years ago there were numerous broken bones at one of the major tourneys? If that's still the case, that ain't cool. It's still pretty much the case, yeah. Injury rates this year were in line with previous years, despite an expansion in body/hand protection. Unfortunately, head protection is still relatively lacking, and people are still getting concussions from serious hits to the head. Rugby caps underneath helmets alleviates this somewhat, but the only real solution is people not acting like a buffel and swinging for the fences.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 17:16
|
|
|
Verisimilidude posted:buffel I swear, if I see one more smallsword guy complain about how sport fencers hit too hard...
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 18:18
|
|
|
You're swinging rigid steel weapons at each other. Whaddya expect?.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 18:19
|
|
|
ImplicitAssembler posted:You're swinging rigid steel weapons at each other. Whaddya expect?. and wearing ample protection, but still getting serious injuries at higher rates than many other types of martial arts. Siivola posted:To go on a bit of a tangent again: I've ranted on this before (at least on tumblr) but can we maybe uncouple "don't hit so loving hard" from any judgements of ~martial validity~? That consistently leads to the tritest possible Fair enough.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 18:22
|
|
|
Well, how did they keep from getting injured/bones broken back in the Renaissance times? Did they tell their opponent not to hit so hard?
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 18:55
|
|
|
I think it's Swetnam who says you should be going out and deliberately starting fights with people for practise. Is it just Longsword that has problems? Because I have never heard charges of excessive force leveled in one handed weapon tournaments, but those are quite rare.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 19:15
|
|
|
Here's a decent read on how they did it in Spain and Portugal: http://ageaeditora.com/en/dandis-pomposos-e-briguentos-usos-e-costumes-nas-salas-de-armas-ibericas-dos-s-xvi-e-xvii/quote:Pacheco, in the Modo Fácil y Nuevo warns that any injuries are the responsibility of the person who produced them, who must take care of the expenses necessary for healing: two doubloons and a hat for a head wound. Pagano describes a bout featuring cool concealed armour and fencing masks back in 1553, but makes it sound like it wasn't the norm: https://pterminiello.tumblr.com/post/140299872890/what-if-i-told-you-that-in-1553-people-fenced-with I've read stuff about how they did it in German-speaking areas in Meyer's time, but I can't remember where I found it. IIRC dussack was popular, and longsword was for the hardcore dudes with missing eyes and teeth. So basically maybe, with a healthy amount of "or else" tacked on? I dunno, people don't write good articles on early sport fencing very often. On a related note, hey ImplicitAssembler, do you know any good sources on early Japanese swordy competitions?
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 19:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 13:50 |
|
|
DandyLion posted:Well, how did they keep from getting injured/bones broken back in the Renaissance times? Did they tell their opponent not to hit so hard? I'm not sure. That's an interesting question. I should note that I'm not saying to hit weakly, slowly, or ineffectively.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2017 19:30
|
|