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Jaguars!
Jul 31, 2012


I was going to mock them for sewing their stripes on the wrong way, but turns out that they also used to have good conduct stripes that pointed upwards, so I suspect that someone has put a great deal of effort getting all the badges and things right!

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Elyv
Jun 14, 2013



So I have a probably overly general question. Something I've seen fairly regularly is the following sequence: King gets deposed and killed, and within a generation, a person shows up saying "I am the son of $KING and the current king is an evil usurper, rise against him!". Generally historians look back and decide, nah, he was lying. What I've been wondering is, would their supporters at the time have generally believed that an individual like Wang Lang or the parade of false Dmitrys who they claimed to be, or was it more of a way of an excuse to throw the bums out? If it's not possible to generalize across so much time and space, that's also fine.

Trin Tragula
Apr 22, 2005

Jobbo_Fett posted:

At least the shovel could be used as a blunt object.

Au contraire; it was far heavier and bulkier than the issue entrenching tool, it had only a long handle (making it too long to swing properly in a trench), and its edge could not be easily sharpened. You wouldn't think that a shovel with a big spike on it could be worse to fight with than a regular shovel, but you'd be wrong...

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry
Welp! :v:

Chillbro Baggins
Oct 8, 2004
Bad Angus! Bad!

aphid_licker posted:

Good old Mitsubishi Dildoworks

Given everything else Mitsubishi Group is involved in, I wouldn't be surprised (to name a few: the biggest bank in Japan, plastics, paper mills, military aircraft, cars, home electronics, and photography -- Nikon doesn't use the three diamonds but is a member).

Edit: It's more a semi-formal collusion of independent businesses (and Mitsubishi-actual's subsidiaries and spinoffs), sort of like how the oil companies after Standard or the Baby Bells continued to unofficially enforce their officially-broken-up-monopolies (or something like that, I've been reading a lot about telephone history after learning the other day that my cellphone provider started out as a railroad).

Edit again: kind of a tangent because it doesn't directly deal with milhist, but TR broke up one of 'em, so close enough I guess: those two examples of American monopolies are coming back together like the shattered T-1000 -- rough napkin math based on wikipedia entries on the successor companies says that about 40% in each field each have bought each other out and are making a comeback.

In more pertinent news, occasionally I drive past a Martin Marietta concrete plant, and always do a double-take at their banner announcing the companywide award they won last year, which depicts an airplane-themed trophy (a propeller and/or wings or some poo poo) ... oh wait that's the "Martin" in "Lockheed Martin". There were some weird corporate acquisitions in the '60s and spinoffs in the '90s. Cf. two leather companies being mainly known for their computers now.

Chillbro Baggins fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Jul 12, 2017

HookedOnChthonics
Dec 5, 2015

Profoundly dull


It's probably not an intentional resemblance but I read every Delivery McGee post in the voice of an old man sat on a sunny porch telling meandering stories about back in his day to a cloud of hovering youngsters and it fits perfectly and greatly improves my forums experiece.

Keep doing you, Delivery :bahgawd::hf::)

Chillbro Baggins
Oct 8, 2004
Bad Angus! Bad!

HookedOnChthonics posted:

It's probably not an intentional resemblance but I read every Delivery McGee post in the voice of an old man sat on a sunny porch telling meandering stories about back in his day to a cloud of hovering youngsters and it fits perfectly and greatly improves my forums experiece.

Keep doing you, Delivery :bahgawd::hf::)

Well, given that all the "funny" war stories I post are from my father and I try to tell them like he told them to me, I've been accused of acting like an old man since I was 25, I'm a Texan (a damned dirty liberal, but I have the proper accent for telling stories on the porch), and tend to not think of additional comments until I read my own post after posting ... you're not all that far off, I guess. :v:

I hope to actually be that guy you're picturing to my nephews' kids. Right now the nephews are the hovering youngsters and my father/their grandpa fills that role, I'm just the uncle that can't be trusted to babysit (because they might come back missing fingats, I'd be too lenient/encouraging of their scientific interests).

Back more on-topic-ish, last weekend the power at my house was out so I had to spend a night on my parents' couch. Dad sleeps in the living-room recliner because his sternum didn't heal right after the triple bypass a few years ago, and it hurts him to lie flat one a bed; Mom felt the need to warn me not to try to be quiet when walking past him. No poo poo, Ma, I grew up hearing stories of him throwing my older half-sister through walls when she was a toddler because he sleeps with one eye open after his service as a Green Beret in Vietnam. To paraphrase his recounting of it, he told sis' mom "Don't tell her to be quiet when Daddy's sleeping! Let her bang the pans together, just as long as I know she's not sneaking up on me!"

PTSD is a hell of a thing.

I fuckin' announced my presence in a quiet conversational tone every time I walked by to go out and smoke.

So, uh, has it been long enough to warrant posting "The First Five Minutes of Patton" again? I really should pressure my pa again to tell his "funny"* war stories on video, given his recent health troubles. (The other day, when I was at his house, he asked me if he was technically a zombie, having gone into full everything arrest and been revived.) Maybe this time he'll give in and record his telling of them for history's sake.

*if you haven't read the times I previously posted them, it's funny in the sense that Hegel's guys shooting out windows and accidentally plugging a friend in the head are funny.

Greatbacon
Apr 9, 2012

by Pragmatica
So, I was chatting with my Dad today and he showed me a book he had picked up about the history of Native Americans and we got to talking about the pre-Colombian tribes/movements and how little the both of us know.

I know this is the milHist thread, but in that context at least, does anyone have any stories or recommended readings about the pre-Colombian Native Americans / First Peoples of the New World?

Class Warcraft
Apr 27, 2006


Cyrano4747 posted:

Hugh Thomas's The Spanish Civil War is an oldie but a goodie as far as getting the political and military narrative down. I had a similar question in grad school about needing a single volume primer on the conflict and it's what my adviser tossed me.

Thanks.

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Enjoy every sandwich.

Smellrose

Greatbacon posted:

So, I was chatting with my Dad today and he showed me a book he had picked up about the history of Native Americans and we got to talking about the pre-Colombian tribes/movements and how little the both of us know.

I know this is the milHist thread, but in that context at least, does anyone have any stories or recommended readings about the pre-Colombian Native Americans / First Peoples of the New World?

Charles Mann's 1491 is an excellent overview.

spectralent
Oct 1, 2014

Me and the boys poppin' down to the shops

Mycroft Holmes posted:



look at nepal :kimchi:

I follow South Africa, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, the UK, Nepal, and India, but who's between Australia and Canada?

Jehde
Apr 21, 2010

spectralent posted:

I follow South Africa, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, the UK, Nepal, and India, but who's between Australia and Canada?

Newfoundland, which wasn't a part of Canada until after WWII.

spectralent
Oct 1, 2014

Me and the boys poppin' down to the shops

Jehde posted:

Newfoundland, which wasn't a part of Canada until after WWII.

Aaah, of course.

GotLag
Jul 17, 2005

食べちゃダメだよ
That picture's meant to represent Imperial participants in War One right?

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!
Yeah. Original source, including where they try to explain the shovel thing in Korean...

https://twitter.com/jk100687/status/825621779125202946

Tias
May 25, 2008

Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

OwlFancier posted:

Wh...

Why do you need to see through your spade?

If you want a hole in your spade why can't you just stick it in the ground and shoot a hole in it on your own time?

Looks like someone doesn't understand the utility of blood grooves :smug:


E: The zaibatsu in question is Hitachi, right? I bone too much :kimchi:

Tias fucked around with this message at 11:53 on Jul 12, 2017

Kopijeger
Feb 14, 2010

Mycroft Holmes posted:



look at nepal :kimchi:

A veritable "Genki Gurkha Girl".

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

Elyv posted:

So I have a probably overly general question. Something I've seen fairly regularly is the following sequence: King gets deposed and killed, and within a generation, a person shows up saying "I am the son of $KING and the current king is an evil usurper, rise against him!". Generally historians look back and decide, nah, he was lying. What I've been wondering is, would their supporters at the time have generally believed that an individual like Wang Lang or the parade of false Dmitrys who they claimed to be, or was it more of a way of an excuse to throw the bums out? If it's not possible to generalize across so much time and space, that's also fine.

To make a massive generalisation across time and space - typically the nobility propping up a claimant know full well the tenuousness of a claim to the throne, they're not committing themselves to a coup attempt because of dedication to a certain interpretation of the purity of the bloodline, they're doing so to get their faction back in charge of the country.

Below the top level of supporters people may or may not have cared depending on the circumstances.

P-Mack
Nov 10, 2007

I imagine it may be important for rebelling nobility to frame their claim to power in a way that doesn't question the validity of inheritance in general and the overall social hierarchy.

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini

Clapping Larry
Still more Japanese Engines!

It's time to move on to some new companies after finishing off Aichi and Kawasaki.

As most of you have guessed, this update's about Hitachi, makers of a popular magic wand, as well as Gasuden, a company that merged with Hitachi prior to the start of WW2.

Gasuden (Tokyo Gasu Denki Kogyo KK) was actually the first civil manufacturer of aero engines in Japan, providing engines for the Army. The engines were licensed-built products from companies such as Salmson, Daimler, Rhone, and Benz.

Some years later, Gasuden picked up on the Japanese government's demands for self-reliance, rather than building foreign products in home factories. This led them to develop 4 separate engines, all of which were accepted by the military. These were the Jimpu, Tempu, Hatakaze, and Urakaze. The latter two did not proceed to mass production, but both the Jimpu and Tempu were used throughout the entire war.

The Jimpu was a 130hp radial engine first built in 1929. The author notes that all Jimpu engines used a two-bladed propeller. The Tempu was a 7-cylinder air-cooled radial, like the Jimpu, but was rated at 300hp, and became a huge success after a small period of teething problems.

The Hatakaze, on the other hand, is relatively obscure. It is known to be an air-cooled 4-cylinder inverted in-line engine rated at 90hp. It was used in the K4Y1 prototype, but would later be replaced by the Jimpu 2 and then fades into the background.



The Urakaze was a water-cooled 6-cylinder inverted in-line engine rated at 300hp and used with the experimental Aichi flying boat "AB-4". All 6 prototypes used Urakaze engines, but the aircraft design never caught on. Several planes were sold/released to the civilian market, where they kept their original pusher-configuration engines. The engines were, apparently, well liked and reliable.


The Jimpu's further development saw 4 other versions being produced, not included the original model. The last in the line, the Jimpu 6, would reach a rated hp of around 310. The majority of this lineage of engines would be installed in trainers, transports, and test aircraft. By the time Gasuden had merged with Hitachi, no new development was taking place with Jimpu engines. The later Jimpu engines would receive the Joint Designation, a system used by the Japanese to simplify naming conventions, [Ha-21].



The Tempu would end up having a much larger number of variants, but received a name change post-merger, being re-christened the Amakaze. At its highest point, Tempu engines clocked in at 510hp. As with the Jimpu, the engines were mostly installed in trainers and transport aircraft. The Tempu 12, in particular, has a claim to fame, as it was the engine that powered the Yokosuka E14Y, one such floatplane being used to bomb mainland USA. Tempu engines, pre-Amakaze, received the JD [Ha-23].


In May 1939, Gasuden was no more, as it merged with Hitachi, becoming a part of Hitachi Aircraft Co. Ltd. The merger caused all of Gasuden's engines to receive a name change, partly due to the different styles of names (Jimpu vs Hatakaze). Jimpu became Shimpu, and sometimes Kamikaze, while Tempu became Amakaze. The Navy continued to refer to the engines as Shimpu and Tempu, and the Army didn't care because it didn't use names for engines. :v:



So with that, the Tempu became the Amakaze with the JD Ha-23. Amakaze engines powered the Ki-27 trainer, known as the Ki-79, as well as the K5Y trainer, one of which is credited with sinking the last US Ship loss in WW2. Amakaze 31s were supplied for the Kyushu Q1W, a plane with a remarkable resemblance to the German Ju-88. The last Amakaze variant, the 33, was rated at 640hp.


Hitachi also had a number of projects during the war, these being the Ha-43, Ha-44, Ha-120, Ha-200, and [Ha-83], which none made it very far into development.

It should be noted that the Ha- number does not necessarily mean a Joint Designation number, as that usually takes the form of [Ha-XX]XX which I usually simplify to Ha-XX, but since the book also refers to their Hatsudoki designation, which ALSO takes the form of Ha-XX, I will therefore attempt to bracket [] all Joint Designation Ha- references from here on out.


Summary

Gasuden/Hitachi engines are regarded as smaller engines, and being quite simple. While this may sound bad, it was particularly useful for their role in trainer and reconnaissance aircraft as they were more reliable, thus requiring less maintenance, and consumed less fuel. Another thing to mention is that these engines were comparable to other nations throughout the war, and though Hitachi only experimented with diesel engines, it hinted at the potential for more advanced designs.

Gasuden/Hitachi would go on to produce 13,571 engines, ranking them 3rd in overall production.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Greatbacon posted:

So, I was chatting with my Dad today and he showed me a book he had picked up about the history of Native Americans and we got to talking about the pre-Colombian tribes/movements and how little the both of us know.

I know this is the milHist thread, but in that context at least, does anyone have any stories or recommended readings about the pre-Colombian Native Americans / First Peoples of the New World?

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

Charles Mann's 1491 is an excellent overview.

Not pre-Colombian but I'm a HUGE fan of Richter's Facing East from Indian Country. It looks at the period from roughly first white settlement to American independence through the lens of the natives who were already there. The book as a whole is good, but the first part where he talks at length about the issues inherent in doing that kind of history is the part that I constantly go back to. Admittedly that's a historian's perspective, so you might not give as much of a gently caress about that.

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Enjoy every sandwich.

Smellrose

Cyrano4747 posted:

Not pre-Colombian but I'm a HUGE fan of Richter's Facing East from Indian Country. It looks at the period from roughly first white settlement to American independence through the lens of the natives who were already there. The book as a whole is good, but the first part where he talks at length about the issues inherent in doing that kind of history is the part that I constantly go back to. Admittedly that's a historian's perspective, so you might not give as much of a gently caress about that.

Seconded, it's an excellent book.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

Seconded, it's an excellent book.

It's one of those books that I got assigned as an undergrad, didn't appreciate at all, and then had to read again in grad school and was amazed at just what an idiot undergrad-me was.

bewbies
Sep 23, 2003

Fun Shoe
Is "The Crusades: The Authoritative History of the War for the Holy Land" worth an audible credit?

golden bubble
Jun 3, 2011

yospos

bewbies posted:

Is "The Crusades: The Authoritative History of the War for the Holy Land" worth an audible credit?

I haven't read it myself, but it appears to pass a basic check. The Guardian review looks promising. The author is a tenured professor at a respectable university.

my dad
Oct 17, 2012

this shall be humorous
I'm reading up on some Yugoslav Partizan formations in one of the areas my family is from (Lika - I hope you like broken terrain, scorching summers, freezing winters, winds blowing at up to a hundred miles per hour, and carbonate rock, because hoooooo boy, good luck finding something else there). There's a lot of stuff based on anecdotes told by fighters and the unit paperwork keeping fairly accurate track of combat aftermath, and it's kinda cool recognizing some of the stuff I heard about from my family.

A couple of funny anecdotes:
  • Members of the communist youth organization often had a stick up their collective asses and kept trying to sabotage attempts of the older guys and gals to have some fun during downtime.
  • There was a number of Domobrani (Croatian Home Guard, basically horribly untrained, unmotivated and underequipped conscripts used as the regular military of the fascist NDH. Mind you they weren't a, uh, clean not-wermacht, but many of them were only there because the alternative was ending up in an Ustaše run prison) who ended up getting captured and released so many times by the Partizans that the Partizans started giving them wishlists of stuff they'd like them to try to have on them the next time they're captured. Domobrani were sometimes jokingly referred to by the Partizans as "our armory".
  • A Partizan artillery guy getting ridiculously angry at Ustaše gunners miles away who kept wildly missing with their barrages, and ranting about how that is inexcusable incompetence and a frivolous waste of good shells that would bring shame to any true artilleryman - until someone reminded him that the alternative to the Ustaše missing was them, you know, actually hitting. The guy then got sad and complained that if the Ustaše kept firing at that rate, then by the time the infantry managed to capture those guns from them there wouldn't be any new ammunition left for him to use.

Some actually rather creepy stuff:
  • When some local Četniks found out that one of the wounded Partizans they captured was a Croat, they paraded him around their village while stabbing him in places where it wouldn't kill him right away, and ranted about him being clear evidence of the Partizans being a pack of Croatian infiltrators betraying the Serbian people to the enemy. Worth noting for hilarious hypocrisy, the Italian garrison the Četniks were on nice terms with was right there all along. (As an aside, I always have a problem when I want to talk about the Četniks because while it's a fact that some of them fought the Nazis, and weren't necessarily a pack of genocidal assholes, the ones in the areas my family comes from were complete and utter scum.)
  • It was not unusual for women Partizans to be careful to save their last bullet when at risk of getting captured alive by fascist/nationalist militias.
  • In general, the poo poo Ustaše did to anyone they captured alive. The Italians enjoyed torching villages for a bit of sport, and the Četniks in that area were a bunch of drunken, murderous yahoos who could give Heygal's guys a run for the money, and rape someone on the way back, but the Ustaše were so insanely obsessed with torture that it genuinely put a massive dent in their combat effectiveness (Adolf motherfucking Hitler later sent their leader a message telling him that they need to knock that poo poo off. They ignored him). There's a constant theme of Ustaše beelining for wounded Partizans and taking huge casualties getting shot/stabbed/blown up as they attempt to subdue them for later fun. Ustaše regularly fell into traps laid by planting a rumor that there's an unprotected hospital or refugee shelter somewhere. One of the local Partizan commanders only survived being captured by the Ustaše because they spent a week breaking his ribs, ripping out his nails, and peeling off his skin instead of handing him over to the Germans for interrogation, and was saved by a surprise raid.

Stuff that I found interesting:
  • Political commissars had an insanely complex job that was somewhat of a compromise between keeping morale high, communist propaganda, befriending the troops, being an example in combat, being an atheist priest of sorts, making sure there's enough discipline and that there is a line that is never crossed (and making sure everyone is aware of exactly what happens to you if you cross it), and surviving. People who were dumb, cruel, or inflexible didn't last long in that job.
  • The Partizans managed to pull off some insanely lopsided victories, especially early on when nobody actually expected facing serious organized resistance. For example, one group of less than 200 Partizans armed only with rifles and a small number of hand grenades ambushed an Italian column of roughly a thousand men, and when the fighting was over, there were over 400 Italian corpses left in the snow, along with a pair of light tanks abandoned undamaged in the panic, and a fuckton of rifles, mortars, machine guns, and ammo, and even some towed artillery. Partizan casualties? One fighter dead, two wounded. Though the Italians had the last laugh of sorts wrt the tanks, since they were piles of crap that broke down the first time the Partizans tried to use them in combat.
  • The Partizans weren't immune to making incredibly dumb mistakes, like when someone high up had the bright idea that it would be awesome if there was a big win on the anniversary of the October Revolution, and ordered a hasty, disorganized attack on fortified fascist positions, with predictable results.

my dad fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Jul 12, 2017

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME

my dad posted:

  • A Partizan artillery guy getting ridiculously angry at Ustaše gunners miles away who kept wildly missing with their barrages, and ranting about how that is inexcusable incompetence and a frivolous waste of good shells that would bring shame to any true artilleryman - until someone reminded him that the alternative to the Ustaše missing was them, you know, actually hitting. The guy then got sad and complained that if the Ustaše kept firing at that rate, then by the time the infantry managed to capture those guns from them there wouldn't be any new ammunition left for him to use.
artillery have always been :spergin:

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

my dad posted:


[*]Members of the communist youth organization often had a stick up their collective asses

:haw:

TerminalSaint
Apr 21, 2007


Where must we go...

we who wander this Wasteland in search of our better selves?

my dad posted:

[*]It was not unusual for women Partizans to be careful to save their last bullet when at risk of getting captured alive by fascist/nationalist militias.


This is apparently SOP for YPJ soldiers, and probably a lot of other female soldiers throughout history.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME
this is going to sound gratuitously morbid, but although early modern sources up until candide discuss that rape happened to men and boys too, modern sources don't mention it at all. i've been wondering why: a change in the atrocities themselves, or is there one thing modern male soldiers refuse to even entertain the idea of?

TerminalSaint posted:

This is apparently SOP for YPJ soldiers, and probably a lot of other female soldiers throughout history.
edit: probably only if they expect mistreatment from other soldiers, which is not the case in some places and times

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Jul 12, 2017

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012

Everyone loves weird hats right?

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME

Siivola posted:

Everyone loves weird hats right?

why are the french ones so loving cool-looking

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye

TerminalSaint posted:

This is apparently SOP for YPJ soldiers, and probably a lot of other female soldiers throughout history.

YPJ?

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME
that kurd thing

Trin Tragula
Apr 22, 2005

HEY GAIL posted:

this is going to sound gratuitously morbid, but although early modern sources up until candide discuss that rape happened to men and boys too, modern sources don't mention it at all. i've been wondering why: a change in the atrocities themselves, or is there one thing modern male soldiers refuse to even entertain the idea of?

edit: probably if the soldiers only expect mistreatment from other soldiers, which is not the case in some places and times

I'm voting for option number 2

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/jul/17/the-rape-of-men

quote:

Because there has been so little research into the rape of men during war, it's not possible to say with any certainty why it happens or even how common it is – although a rare 2010 survey, published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, found that 22% of men and 30% of women in Eastern Congo reported conflict-related sexual violence.

Later on I speak with Dr Angella Ntinda, who treats referrals from the [Refugee Law Project]. She tells me: "Eight out of 10 patients from RLP will be talking about some sort of sexual abuse."

"Eight out of 10 men?" I clarify.

"No. Men and women," she says.

"What about men?"

"I think all the men."

I am aghast.

"All of them?" I say.

"Yes," she says. "All the men."

Black Leaf
Nov 19, 2016

by Smythe

Siivola posted:

Everyone loves weird hats right?


could you translate the finnish runes?

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME

Trin Tragula posted:

I'm voting for option number 2
that makes more sense than my other option, which was that there are some things the perpetrators of a modern war crime refuse to do where their early-modern counterpart would not have

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Jul 12, 2017

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

I would think a lot of it has to do with cultural norms as well. For example, do you see as much male on male sexual violence in the Ukraine as in the Congo? Are there cultural factors at work that make it more or less taboo to rape another man?

edit: this can also, of course, be asked of different times as well. Did something happen in 17th century Europe that all of a sudden made penetrating another man (willing or otherwise) more of a taboo than before?

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012

Black Leaf posted:

could you translate the finnish runes?
Certainly.

Those are Korean tho, can't help you with them. We had a hyperwar about it and everything.

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Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Cyrano4747 posted:

I would think a lot of it has to do with cultural norms as well. For example, do you see as much male on male sexual violence in the Ukraine as in the Congo? Are there cultural factors at work that make it more or less taboo to rape another man?

I dunno, I keep reading stories out of the Middle East conflict about men sexually assaulting other men, usually with dildos or hands. It's just hardly ever direct penis-in-orifice, so no one really thinks about it as rape.

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