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Business Gorillas posted:That social ostracization leads them to going online and has them looking for a more marginalized group to project their angst on, which takes them straight to the Outrage Farms (which wouldn't exist without a constant stream of tumblr content to mock) If Tumblr didn't exist, you'd still have that redpill woman hating poo poo based on stories about how Stacy turned a dude down but totally made out with Chad the next day or whatever middle school poo poo they're on. Hell, as long as a single person out there dares not conform to the gender binary, you'll still see largely the same content. Tumblr is not the problem here.
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Jul 13, 2017 16:26
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Business Gorillas posted:The left needs to openly broadcast their platform and provide a viable alternative to neoliberal economics and constant interventionism Did you see the news on Bernie? He just gave a speech and said a 2020 presidential run isn't off the table for him. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2017/07/12/bernie-sanders-2020-presidential-run/474004001/ Does the alt-right hate bernie? I never really felt the revulsion for Bernie that I got, deep in my core, for Clinton.
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Jul 13, 2017 16:29
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poo poo wrong thread
Former Everything has issued a correction as of 16:47 on Jul 13, 2017 |
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Jul 13, 2017 16:41
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Blaming Tumblr for the alt-right is, at the most charitable, the "they hate us for our freedoms" of the culture war. Huge quantities of dispossessed young men in a society that repeatedly reiterates that they should be successful and in charge are gonna gravitate to the system that speaks to that. Mocking teens on tumblr is an in-group bonding exercise for them, but it's not some lynchpin to the movement. If they didn't have tumblr it'd just be something else they'd be yelling at.
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Jul 13, 2017 16:46
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apokaladle posted:If Tumblr didn't exist, you'd still have that redpill woman hating poo poo based on stories about how Stacy turned a dude down but totally made out with Chad the next day or whatever middle school poo poo they're on. Hell, as long as a single person out there dares not conform to the gender binary, you'll still see largely the same content. Tumblr is not the problem here. Look you can plug your ears and scream about it all you want but tumblr provides real life analouges to what the alt right is shrieking about Screaming about white genocide and safe spaces would be a lot less effective if they couldn't back it up with tumblr posts about how wearing strapless dresses is a microagression and people breaking down in public because someone refused to refer to them as Xir
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Jul 13, 2017 16:47
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Bushiz posted:Huge quantities of dispossessed young men in a society that repeatedly reiterates that they should be successful and in charge are gonna gravitate to the system that speaks to that. That's kind of what 'privilege' means, though. It isn't just that tumblr crazies are doing dumb things, it's that they're making scapegoats out of them. (and it doesn't help that the alt-right's demographics are the ones completely locked out of success and power, because their parents aren't rich enough)
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Jul 13, 2017 16:50
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Bushiz posted:Blaming Tumblr for the alt-right is, at the most charitable, the "they hate us for our freedoms" of the culture war. yep
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Jul 13, 2017 16:53
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All problems can be traced to anime
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Jul 13, 2017 17:06
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Business Gorillas posted:Look you can plug your ears and scream about it all you want but tumblr provides real life analouges to what the alt right is shrieking about I'm not "plugging my ears" or screaming, I'm just saying you're misidentifying the core of the problem. There are other factions of the right that primarily spend their time talking about BLM thug riots, or feminazis making god fearing Americans pay for their birth control. The alt right is an interesting phenomenon to study, but they don't exist hermetically sealed off from the larger right wing. They all have scapegoats.
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Jul 13, 2017 17:10
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Christman waa right is there someway we can sell them socialism as the conspiracy theory answer they're looking for. Cause I see these dipshits or even know a few of them and think drat I'm glad Zinn got to me before Carl of Swindon or Richard Dawkins
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Jul 13, 2017 17:15
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Just reading the Nagel excerpts posted, I thought that the argument was that Tumblr is symptomatic of broader problems in leftism that's made it easy to rebutt. 'They'd complain about anything' is true, but misses the point.
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Jul 13, 2017 17:16
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spacetoaster posted:Did you see the news on Bernie? He just gave a speech and said a 2020 presidential run isn't off the table for him. From my semi-scientific and personal experience, while Bernie might be very much against everything the alt-right stands for they do like him. Many of them were Bernie voters/supporters who went loving nuts post-primary. They weren't attracted to his social message, mainly because he was an economic-message focused person, and being the young people they were they were focused on his free college message and other things. I did some weird Reddit analysis when I got bored and saw that places like S4P had a not-insignificant amount of crossover with the MRA/GG reddits. Once that was gone, they went full TRUMP! because they are huge morons. SA had that with a few posters getting reaaaaaal racist. I know a few personally as well.
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Jul 13, 2017 17:18
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logikv9 posted:All problems can be traced to anime
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Jul 13, 2017 17:22
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bernie sanders SUCKS and I was saying that over and over again during the primary (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 13, 2017 17:23
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I'd be careful about generalizing internet experience though, double that for expressed intent in the post-truth era. Edit: more precisely, were they are what they're saying, or was it just a ploy to snag new people? 'I like bernie' might be easy to say if you're a trump guy who thinks bernie is gonna lose, but think capitalizing on the division might work. rudatron has issued a correction as of 17:28 on Jul 13, 2017 |
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Jul 13, 2017 17:24
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I think low self-esteem mixed with a sense of longing are the absolute core ingredients that generate the anti-feminist vein of alt-right belief. I think a lot of the other rituals or subsets of the alt-right mindset derive from this. After all, where are the women in these movements? Apart from grifting some subsets (that are usually the more racist groups), they don't exist. Why? Underlying a lot of the disdain for women is a core of men that are yearning for a romantic connection with someone. However, their sense of self worth makes them so scared of rejection that they end up paralyzed and unable to act. Their only solution is to trivialize and dehumanize the objects of their affection until there is nothing of value that can reject them. Even then, many stay shuttered away from women because they're still scared to approach one. Why is this? Ultimately, these men are afraid of sincerity and the vulnerability that comes along with it. They think that the problem is sincerity itself, not their fear of sincerity, so they go try to demonize anyone who has a sincere belief. Black Lives Matter is sincerely mad that cops are shooting black people? Umadbro. Tumblrites are mad that someone using the wrong pronouns reminds them of their lost place in this world every day? Umadbro. Some idiot poster on /r/incel is mad that they can't get laid? Umadbro. No matter what groups the alt right fragments into, the core of it is a rejection of sincerity because any sort of vulnerability is too agonizing to bear. And what more frightening genesis of sincerity is there then actually telling someone that you're into them and want to gently caress?
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Jul 13, 2017 17:28
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KomradeX posted:Christman waa right is there someway we can sell them socialism as the conspiracy theory answer they're looking for. Cause I see these dipshits or even know a few of them and think drat I'm glad Zinn got to me before Carl of Swindon or Richard Dawkins "Ultra elite capitalist are working together to horde everything of value to humanity, be it wealth, power, or even affection." You seriously don't have to stretch the truth that much, and in some cases at all, to make a conspiracy theory argument for socialism.
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Jul 13, 2017 17:34
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rudatron posted:Just reading the Nagel excerpts posted, I thought that the argument was that Tumblr is symptomatic of broader problems in leftism that's made it easy to rebutt. 'They'd complain about anything' is true, but misses the point. I will grant that her argument is slightly more nuanced than what people usually take from the book. I do think there has been an issue with what facets of leftism are most visible, but that becomes a far larger conversation about feedback loops between media and activism and organization. That problem is exacerbated now, what with bots and fake news being more influential than I would have ever imagined a year ago. I think there also needs to be a discussion on how to successfully channel some of these Tumblr archetypes into healthier and more successful forms of activism, but frankly I don't know if this forum is the place to have that conversation. ^^Yeah, the problem is that they take a hard right into blaming Jews then.
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Jul 13, 2017 17:38
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MizPiz posted:"Ultra elite capitalist are working together to horde everything of value to humanity, be it wealth, power, or even affection." You really don't but yet when these guys did it they read b ultra elite capitalists to be the Jews.
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Jul 13, 2017 17:46
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rudatron posted:make the post Thanks for looking this up and posting it, it's nice to have some actual numbers to look at. Still, none of this seems to support Nagel's idea that the sexual revolution has brought about a "steep sexual hierarchy" in which a few people are promiscuous and everyone else is lonely. I mean, I definitely know people (both men and women) who feel alienated by contemporary dating and hook-up culture but the idea of a steep sexual hierarchy is laughable. Most people I know don't struggle to get laid and the idea that there's a small sexual elite who are monopolizing the available partners is absurd. What does seem to be happening is that a statistically significant slice of the population have dropped out of the dating / hookup pool altogether but this seems to have more to do with social atomization, geographic isolation or mental health issues. The reason the nerdy guys I know don't have much sex is cause they never leave the house, not because there are no women who would deign to sleep with them. Honestly, I barely registered what Nagel was saying the first time I read that passage and now that I'm rereading what I posted more closely I'm a bit shocked by how credulously she accepts an idea that seems to owe more to pornography than any statistics on marriage or divorce rates. rudatron posted:But your argument is circular - you're saying they're psycho-sexually stunted because they don't date, but also that they can't date because they're stunted. That works maybe as an argument as to why a vicious cycle can establish itself, but not why such a thing would establish itself in the first place. Furthermore, if this feedback loop were as strong as you're suggesting, then it would be the dominant case (using the mathematical definition here), because any random perturbation would begin that feedback loop (think of like an eigenvalue of a matrix) - you'd then have to explain why it isn't the case for everyone, or nearly everyone. Presumably you could connect these nebulous cultural changes to more concrete materialist factors - suburbanization, physical fitness, mental health, employment patterns, and in particular the social changes brought about by the internet. I do think there's an argument to be made that a growing percentage of the population are growing up socially stunted because of the internet and that this reduces their life opportunities, which frustrates them and primes them to join political movements that purport to solve their frustrations. apokaladle posted:I've almost finished reading Nagle's book and I'm really quite disappointed. For all the problems with this school of Tumblr leftism, or whatever you want to call it, it's not chiefly to blame for the rise of the alt-right. It has far more to do with the desire for group acceptance, toxic masculinity, and the denial of status to those who were never conditioned to expect it than anything else. I hope it inspires other, better books about the subject though. I was really excited to read a serious look at political and social trends in internet subcultures, because I am extremely normal. I don't think my reaction to the book is as negative as yours is but I share some of your reservations. If I do get off my rear end and make a new thread about it I hope you'll come and post there!
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Jul 13, 2017 17:47
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Baloogan posted:bernie sanders SUCKS and I was saying that over and over again during the primary You said a lot of poo poo over and over again during the primary. logikv9 posted:All problems can be traced to anime
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Jul 13, 2017 17:48
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Helsing posted:Thanks for looking this up and posting it, it's nice to have some actual numbers to look at. Still, none of this seems to support Nagel's idea that the sexual revolution has brought about a "steep sexual hierarchy" in which a few people are promiscuous and everyone else is lonely. Please do make that thread, I'd love to discuss the book and some of the questions it raises more! I'm actually in a real life reading group that's reading it right now.
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Jul 13, 2017 18:08
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KomradeX posted:You really don't but yet when these guys did it they read b ultra elite capitalists to be the Jews. Which leads into (one of) my pet conspiracy theories that hard right conspiracy theorists are purposefully cultivated and amplified to create an extremist element that'll lash out against opposition groups that can be easily disavowed.
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Jul 13, 2017 18:12
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If anything, the internet may have mitigated the impact of alienation through access to new social circles, albeit those include the alt-right, so we're back where we started. The other options include literal furries, and as A Pale Horse said, taking on any vaguely 'queer' identity they can for entry into that community just so they have a feeling of belonging. And antifa, for that matter. poo poo is going to get weirder and weirder, and it's possibly just as well that most conventional social groups are so completely out of touch with the youth they don't even register to them.
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Jul 13, 2017 18:17
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MizPiz posted:Which leads into (one of) my pet conspiracy theories that hard right conspiracy theorists are purposefully cultivated and amplified to create an extremist element that'll lash out against opposition groups that can be easily disavowed. Well isn't that what a bunch of GLADIO related programs in Europe ended up doing in arming fascist paramilitary groups. And we do know the air force encouraged UFO conspiracy theorists to cover up weapons tests
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Jul 13, 2017 18:34
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Inescapable Duck posted:If anything, the internet may have mitigated the impact of alienation through access to new social circles, albeit those include the alt-right, so we're back where we started. I post here because I get to hang out with actual communists and anarchists and talk about guillotines, so I'm not pretending that we're so above it all. That conversation, about the slow disintegration of the Overton Window with these microcommunities that can form in ways they never could before the rise of the internet, is yet another thing that I really wanted the book to take a deep dive into. I don't even fully realize how strange this all is until I find myself talking with my parents about it, or even coworkers of mine who weren't raised by the internet.
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Jul 13, 2017 18:38
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:I think low self-esteem mixed with a sense of longing are the absolute core ingredients that generate the anti-feminist vein of alt-right belief. I think a lot of the other rituals or subsets of the alt-right mindset derive from this. After all, where are the women in these movements? Apart from grifting some subsets (that are usually the more racist groups), they don't exist. Why? This is a really compelling take which also hints at a possible solution. Could it be that the solution to anti-feminism is simply creating more dating opportunity for young people? I imagine it's a lot harder to think of women as garbage when you are interacting with them frequently, maybe having the state promote programs for young people to meet each other like in Scandinavia would help alleviate this issue. My fear is that the solution and the cause are largely the same in this case. The internet has created greater opportunities than ever to meet unrelated members of the opposite sex, but it also isolates us into fragmented communities, often gender segregated ones. SA is better than most, but this website is still primarily male dominated.
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Jul 13, 2017 18:53
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I wonder what unfuckable basement men did before the 1990s
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Jul 13, 2017 18:56
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Baloogan posted:bernie sanders SUCKS and I was saying that over and over again during the primary niiice.
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Jul 13, 2017 19:00
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the bitcoin of weed posted:I wonder what unfuckable basement men did before the 1990s Same thing as now, only much more isolated and despairing.
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Jul 13, 2017 19:03
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rudatron posted:I'd be careful about generalizing internet experience though, double that for expressed intent in the post-truth era. For the people I knew personally they were indistinguishable from your standard Bernie supporter. Then they took the weirdest turn into alt-right fuckery out of nowhere. There were plenty of trolls on S4P, and plenty of people who tried to "recruit" or attract people over to the stupid side post-primary. But before his loss I didn't see anything that would suggest a "ploy". People definitely got desperate, they got really really nasty / bad, which probably doubled down on the CDS and helped lead them to the alt-right. I don't think the alt-right "recruits" in such a way. If you know about it, you know about it. The idea itself appeals to a lot of people. After he lost, they lost their free college champion, and the two remaining choices were to get CUCKED and root for the person they self-radicalized to hate or go on the meme-heavy trump train.
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Jul 13, 2017 19:08
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rudatron posted:more precisely, were they are what they're saying, or was it just a ploy to snag new people? 'I like bernie' might be easy to say if you're a trump guy who thinks bernie is gonna lose, but think capitalizing on the division might work. That's what a lot of the left did for trump. Til he actually won. 
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Jul 13, 2017 19:08
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Tangentially, I find the alt-right phenomenon to be extremely fascinating from a  point of view. Definitely I think it's a potent combination of sexual frustration, a society that tells them that they should succeed, stupid internet fads, and echochambers.
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Jul 13, 2017 19:09
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Baloogan posted:bernie sanders SUCKS and I was saying that over and over again during the primary this is one cruel probe
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Jul 13, 2017 19:29
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Business Gorillas posted:Look you can plug your ears and scream about it all you want but tumblr provides real life analouges to what the alt right is shrieking about Nah man, it's astoundingly easy to just tell them "I saw a crazy person on the internet therefore now I hate black people" isn't a valid position to hold. There's something wrong if a nazi can tell you he's a nazi because he heard about otherkin on Tumblr and your response is "drat he's got me!"
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Jul 13, 2017 19:32
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the bitcoin of weed posted:I wonder what unfuckable basement men did before the 1990s ham radio
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Jul 13, 2017 19:58
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Al! posted:ham radio This is accurate, and still true. <-- fellow ham radio dweeb. Also - filled with old men named 'Wayne'.
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Jul 13, 2017 20:00
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Al! posted:ham radio this is at least kind of interesting bring back ham radio
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Jul 13, 2017 20:38
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Business Gorillas posted:Look you can plug your ears and scream about it all you want but tumblr provides real life analouges to what the alt right is shrieking about ahahahaha you poor simple child. what about the people claiming that teenagers saying dumb poo poo are the reason they think you need to be thrown in a camp makes you think "yes, if only we coddled them a little harder, they wouldn't find any excuse to want to burn down society." seriously. Think about it. how would you satisfactorily insulate them from the world, such that no offenses as egregious as "teenager said a dumb thing" triggered their desire to see you thrown out of a helicopter
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Jul 13, 2017 20:39
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Business Gorillas posted:Look you can plug your ears and scream about it all you want but tumblr provides real life analouges to what the alt right is shrieking about on the other hand: who the gently caress cares it's tumblr
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Jul 13, 2017 20:40
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