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fnox posted:I don't give a poo poo so long as they're not worse than Maduro. fnox posted:See, you again prove your ignorance on the topic. EDIT: fnox posted:Whenever the questions get too hard, just ignore every post and call everyone an imperialist! Come down I was writing the above post and hadn't seen your reply yet
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Jul 13, 2017 18:39
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GlyphGryph posted:That wasn't a call for intervention Ah ok so do you oppose intervention then? Do you have anything to say to people like fnox about their calls for intervention?
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Jul 13, 2017 18:44
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Bob le Moche posted:I don't know what you want dude, I keep telling you that the only stuff I'm claiming any authority to speak about is the way US imperialism works, why they want intervention, and how that works. I am pretty open about not being able to know what things are like for Venezuelan people and how lovely it would be if someone like me was to tell them how to run their country. They are telling you how bad it is Bob. A first hand account on how bad it is. There's pictures, there's videos, there's overwhelming evidence of just how awful and corrupt the Venezuelan government is, that you have chosen to ignore. We just want them gone and there are exactly two paths, armed revolution, or the international community recognising a transitional government. Maduro has cheated his way out of any constitutional method that leads to government change, and is planning to change the constitution to legitimise his dictatorship, in two weeks. I already explained why a general strike wouldn't work. What else can we do, Bob?
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Jul 13, 2017 18:47
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I'm going to quote my post from a while ago and aim it at Bob this time, not that I expect a reply that makes sense.ISIS CURES TROONS posted:Hey Borneo Jimmy I'm calling you out. Suppose everything you claim is true and there is actually a CIA backed conspiracy to out the PSUV, place them all in FEMA death camps, gas them with chemtrails, and replace them with a puppet US government.
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Jul 13, 2017 18:48
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fnox posted:What else can we do, Bob?
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Jul 13, 2017 18:53
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Bob le Moche posted:You should ask the Venezuelans in this thread who are against US intervention, not me. Who exactly is that, Bob? Note, I'm not calling for US intervention specifically, I'm calling for international help, whichever comes first. What an awfully convenient way to call me an imperialist and dodge the question, though! Seems like that's all you do, it's not much of a debate if every time the questions get tough you just cover your ears and start shouting "IMPERALISTS!", isn't it? fnox fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Jul 13, 2017 |
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Jul 13, 2017 18:56
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fnox posted:Who exactly is that, Bob? I don't know, who is that? Are all the Venezuelans posting in the english-language something awful dot com forum about Venezuela also people who seek to encourage foreign intervention? I think I remember Chuck mentioning that he was opposed to intervention actually. Ok here it is: Chuck Boone posted:I actually agree with you that the U.S. should not be involved in Venezuela (or anywhere else). EDIT: Maybe I should write a post about what imperialism is because it seems that to most it's nothing but a buzzword meaning "bad thing" but when I do use it I actually mean something very specific.
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Jul 13, 2017 19:23
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International intervention, Bob. Through the OAS, through the UN, through other diplomatic channels that can help avoid having boots on the ground and escalating the situation into a civil war. To say that ALL countries should step aside and let the people fight an impossible fight on their own is beyond cruel, it goes against the spirit of democracy in Latin America.
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Jul 13, 2017 19:27
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Bob le Moche posted:EDIT: Maybe I should write a post about what imperialism is because it seems that to most it's nothing but a buzzword meaning "bad thing" but when I do use it I actually mean something very specific. Maybe you should shut the gently caress up about Venezuela since you clearly know nothing about it. Go make an anti-Imperialism thread and stay there.
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Jul 13, 2017 19:28
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Stop engaging the troll, please. His posts make it obvious enough he doesn't know the first thing about Venezuela, so there's no reason to try and reason with him.
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Jul 13, 2017 19:30
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It's funny how a lot of people (read: idiots) seem to assume that "international intervention" only means "engage militarily or with heavy country-wide sanctions". Those same people who are against international intervention in Venezuela are also, ironically, also the same people supporting things like the BDS movement on Israel. Wait, but the latter one is GOOD international intervention!! 111 International intervention can also be used to mean things like "OAS declares Venezuela a dictatorship and ejects it from the community". It probably helps to be more specific rather than lumping everything together.
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Jul 13, 2017 19:49
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JDAMS would cure Maduro, though.
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Jul 13, 2017 20:07
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Bob le Moche posted:If you are reading this thread and are against intervention, or even just an uninformed non-Venezuelan, I want to make the point that people who seek intervention will try to manipulate your perception of what's happening in order to silence any qualms you might have about it, but they will never openly tell you that this is what they really stand for. They want to make sure that when the US does decide to intervene, the dominant narrative in North America is that it's for humanitarian reasons and that any opposition can easily be painted as supporting an evil totalitarian despot, this is what ensures that imperialist governments can get away with enforcing their interests on the rest of the world without opposition from their own citizens. Once this happens the media then completely ignores the outcome of such regime change operations and the violence done in order to protect imperialist interests, and continue to completely ignores the crimes of the authoritarian regimes who work for the US and receive its support. The reason I keep bringing up the importance of learning about history is that this scenario keeps happening, over and over again. so how did you figure all of this out? lete see some sources, cote me about how Maduro Xerveza is a good guy
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Jul 13, 2017 20:29
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Bob le Moche posted:I don't know, who is that? Are all the Venezuelans posting in the english-language something awful dot com forum about Venezuela also people who seek to encourage foreign intervention? You seem like a cool guy...What did you have for breakfast this morning?
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Jul 14, 2017 01:20
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JailTrump posted:You seem like a cool guy...What did you have for breakfast this morning? Nothing but homemade turnip juice. Anything else would be giving in to the bourgeoisie imperial capitalists  Edit: Looks like the Venezuelan last action hero showed up at a protest. quote:A police officer who stole a helicopter and fired on two Venezuelan government buildings appeared in public for the first time Thursday night, defying a nationwide manhunt by showing up at a protest in the capital. Homeroom Fingering fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Jul 14, 2017 |
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Jul 14, 2017 02:00
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Well, the man knows how to make an exit.
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Jul 14, 2017 04:22
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ISIS CURES TROONS posted:Well, the man knows how to make an exit. And an entrance. One of the most wanted people in the country shows up at a rally in the middle of the capital from nowhere and leaves the same way. Makes the security establishment look like dumbasses.
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Jul 14, 2017 04:31
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I love how now tbat r. guyo is the sheriff of the sf all tankies and war crime denialisrs go unpunished.
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Jul 14, 2017 04:31
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I dont know posted:And an entrance. One of the most wanted people in the country shows up at a rally in the middle of the capital from nowhere and leaves the same way. Makes the security establishment look like dumbasses. I hate that he gets any sort of public attention, to be frank, he's yet to do anything, yet people are hailing him as some sort of messiah, which is in itself a bad sign. One would have thought that by now the Venezuelan people would have learned not to trust military strongmen with civilian affairs.
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Jul 14, 2017 05:24
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LeoMarr posted:I love how now tbat r. guyo is the sheriff of the sf all tankies and war crime denialisrs go unpunished. He's a rereg of the guy that posted that dumb Grover Furr thread a while back and got owned really hard for page after page. Also you could try PMing one of the other D&D mods. We did manage to make Borneo Jimmy be ban on sight in this thread at least. ugh its Troika fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Jul 14, 2017 |
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Jul 14, 2017 05:30
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ISIS CURES TROONS posted:He's a rereg of the guy that posted that dumb Grover Furr thread a while back and got owned really hard for page after page. no i'm not
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Jul 14, 2017 05:38
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fnox posted:I hate that he gets any sort of public attention, to be frank, he's yet to do anything, yet people are hailing him as some sort of messiah, which is in itself a bad sign. One would have thought that by now the Venezuelan people would have learned not to trust military strongmen with civilian affairs. Guy knows how to get media coverage that's for sure. Do you think he's trying to build an army with which to fight an insurgency?
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Jul 14, 2017 05:55
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R. Guyovich posted:no i'm not Yeah, you posted something equally crazy.
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Jul 14, 2017 06:04
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Ah, that was the thread I was thinking of. It's okay, though, the OP got owned repeatedly in that thread too.
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Jul 14, 2017 06:17
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i'm the well-adjusted guy who follows his forums enemies around and bookmarks threads they made i didn't like
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Jul 14, 2017 06:29
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ISIS CURES TROONS posted:Also you could try PMing one of the other D&D mods. Uh oh looks like the commies aren't getting properly silenced by the authorities anymore, time to call for foreign intervention.
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Jul 14, 2017 06:31
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Squalid posted:Guy knows how to get media coverage that's for sure. Do you think he's trying to build an army with which to fight an insurgency? I doubt he could mobilize an entire army, not only because I don't see any officers backing his very improvised plans, but because the members of the military who aren't brainwashed, for the most part, actually believe they shouldn't get involved in civilian affairs. I knew a Venezuelan Special Forces soldier, and he told me precisely that, that he and the rest of his division only do as they're told, they choose for the most part to forget about politics while they're in the service. My late Air Force Captain uncle told me the same many years ago. Maybe some have had a change of heart now but I doubt any important portion of them actually believe they will make things better by starting an armed coup. For the more brainwashed forces like the GNB and SEBIN though, I don't see them supporting a new government, much less an insurgency. They will stick to Maduro until the end.
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Jul 14, 2017 06:33
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fnox posted:I doubt he could mobilize an entire army, not only because I don't see any officers backing his very improvised plans, but because the members of the military who aren't brainwashed, for the most part, actually believe they shouldn't get involved in civilian affairs. I knew a Venezuelan Special Forces soldier, and he told me precisely that, that he and the rest of his division only do as they're told, they choose for the most part to forget about politics while they're in the service. My late Air Force Captain uncle told me the same many years ago. Maybe some have had a change of heart now but I doubt any important portion of them actually believe they will make things better by starting an armed coup. If the army was ordered to fire en masse on protesters, do you think they would do it? That seems to me to be the difference between protests deposing a despot (Tunisia, Egypt) and not (Syria)
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Jul 14, 2017 06:48
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Foxfire_ posted:If the army was ordered to fire en masse on protesters, do you think they would do it? That seems to me to be the difference between protests deposing a despot (Tunisia, Egypt) and not (Syria) Thing is, they've already opened fire against protesters before, this has often been the cause of rumours about supposed rifts in the Armed Forces that have yet to manifest themselves. I guess it will take an actual massacre in the streets of Caracas for them to react. The government had previously called for the mass murder of civilians during the infamous Operaciones de Liberacion del Pueblo, its hard to establish just how many innocents got caught in the crossfire because the government kept everything under wraps, but casualties are likely in the hundreds if not thousands.
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Jul 14, 2017 07:47
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fnox posted:Thing is, they've already opened fire against protesters before, this has often been the cause of rumours about supposed rifts in the Armed Forces that have yet to manifest themselves. I guess it will take an actual massacre in the streets of Caracas for them to react. Was any of that by the military though? I thought nearly all of the offenses were by the national guard, SEBIN, local police, and colectivos. Kind of like how in Tunisia and Egypt (its initial revolution, anyway) nearly all of the violence against protestors was by police units and not military. Not that there are any strong parallels between the situations otherwise.
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Jul 14, 2017 09:24
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fnox posted:Thing is, they've already opened fire against protesters before, this has often been the cause of rumours about supposed rifts in the Armed Forces that have yet to manifest themselves. I guess it will take an actual massacre in the streets of Caracas for them to react. My impression from the thread was that collectivo's have been shooting protestors, national guard have killed people with tear gas launchers, but haven't generally shot anyone, and the army has stayed out of it. Is that wrong?
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Jul 14, 2017 09:28
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Saladman posted:Was any of that by the military though? I thought nearly all of the offenses were by the national guard, SEBIN, local police, and colectivos. Kind of like how in Tunisia and Egypt (its initial revolution, anyway) nearly all of the violence against protestors was by police units and not military. Not that there are any strong parallels between the situations otherwise. The OLPs and other cases of mass extrajudicial executions such as what happened in La Planta jail were done by the army. Everything else related to these 100 days of struggle have been caused by either colectivos, PNB, GNB, CICPC or SEBIN, with some other criminal actions from specialized GNB groups such as the CONAS, as well as by military police such as those guarding the La Carlota airbase.
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Jul 14, 2017 10:09
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I want to share something a little personal, so I apologize in advance. My family moved to Canada about 20 years ago. This was before Chavez came to power. Things were bad in Venezuela then, but I think that if you ask anyone today if they'd like to go back to the Venezuela of 20 years ago, lots of people would say "of course!". There was food in the supermarkets then and medicine in the pharmacies, at least. In the years after we arrived in Canada, we'd have family members visit us, and so we'd get the chance to send things back home to the relatives who couldn't visit. When we asked them what they wanted us to send them, they'd always say the same thing: chocolate! There were all kinds of chocolates in Canada that you couldn't get in Venezuela. We'd send as much as could fit in the suitcase of whoever was going back home. Skor, Butterfinger, Peanut M&Ms, Starburst... I've been in Mexico City for the last few weeks attending a conference and doing some academic networking. By pure chance, I found out recently that a relative was flying through here, and that he had some space left over in a suitcase for me to send stuff to my relatives in Venezuela. I got in touch with my aunt and grandmother and asked them what they wanted. This is what they asked for:  I won't put words in anyone's mouth, but I think that what I'm about to say will ring true to the other Venezuelan posters. Whenever someone comes in the thread and tries to de-legitimize the opposition movement, and downplay the urgent need for political change in the country as some kind of U.S. imperialist plot or the brainchild of racist elitists, I think about my family back home and all the different ways that they're suffering. I think about how hard it is to get my grandmother the medicine that she needs, and about how she cried when I sent her $200 because she was finally able to pay for some repairs to her crumbling home. I think about all the times that I've listened quietly to my aunts and uncles talk with complete dismay about how they remember supermarkets full of food when they were younger. They're too nice to say it, but their lives have been ruined. They don't have to say it. When I think about all of that, I also can't help but think how dead wrong it is for someone to say that there's no merit to people demanding change in Venezuela "because imperialism" or whatever. If you or your loved ones lived in that misery, you'd want change, too. Foxfire_ posted:My impression from the thread was that collectivo's have been shooting protestors, national guard have killed people with tear gas launchers, but haven't generally shot anyone, and the army has stayed out of it. Is that wrong? While the National Guard don't always shoot people with firearms, they do often shoot people with other things that also have the potential to be fatal. We've known for a while that getting shot directly with a tear gas canister at close range can be fatal, so any time that a National Guard soldier shoots someone with a tear gas canister at close range I think we can assume that their intention is to kill or at least cause life-threatening injury. About half a dozen protesters have been killed by tear gas canisters since the protests began on April 1. Aside from shooting people with tear gas canisters, we also know that the National Guard will sometimes replace the rubber pellets in their shotgun shells with marbles and ball bearings. Armando Caņizales died on May 4 after being shot by National Guard soldiers with a ball bearing. The National Guard has also shot at people with firearms. The latest victim of the repression--Janet Angulo Parra--was allegedly shot in the head by National Guard soldiers. National Guard soldiers shooting people with pistols doesn't happen as often, but it happens. Squalid posted:Guy knows how to get media coverage that's for sure. Do you think he's trying to build an army with which to fight an insurgency? Here's a bit of what he said last night: https://twitter.com/Rakelita913/status/885642501989781504 quote:It's time for this narco-government to fall. On the 18th [of July], there will be a national general lock-down from which there will be no return. Zero hour. The popular consultation [the plebiscite] will take place with dignity. We will be on the streets defending the people.
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Jul 14, 2017 14:33
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You don't have to apologize for anything. You're doing a huge service by letting us know what's going on. Thank you so much.
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Jul 14, 2017 14:55
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Chuck Boone posted:I want to share something a little personal, so I apologize in advance. Goddamn, dude. That's well put. Do you mind if I share this post around, at least in SA? I've been hearing this kind of stuff from my buddy ,F___, here in America for as long as I've known him. He dropped off the face of the this spring. I know it's a stupid thing to say but I hope everyone is safe, if only for today.
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Jul 14, 2017 16:00
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Chuck gets how I feel, and how I guess the rest of us Venegoons feel about this whole situation. Maybe there was a time where this whole "imperialist" schtick had some merit, but that time has long passed. The Venezuelan government is illegitimate and criminal, and they deserve to be ousted and jailed for what they've done. It just feels so absurd when someone comes and says that this is something about race, or about class, at the same time I'm trying to get my buddy out of the country out of fear he may get killed; someone who isn't white, lives in Caricuao and has maybe a couple hundred bucks to his name after years of saving. It's so frustrating to hear someone say that, when at the same time your family is desperately selling everything they own so they can leave the country they've called home for more than 50 years.
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Jul 14, 2017 16:35
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The entire point of having the collectivos armados is so that you don't have to rely on the military or the police to shoot into crowds if you really need to reach that stage. The development of such paramilitary groups is a way to bypass the monopoly of force from the state to the regime. Taking the examples given above, both where it didn't work (Egypt/Tunesia) and were it did (Syria, Bahrain through Saudi intervention I would also add), the powers that be used the forces they did because enough time had gone by that military/security forces had been filled with sufficient loyalists. Even if it didn't work in Tunesia, the point is that there was a sufficient level of comfort that no other quasi-parallel institutions needed to be established in order to fulfill the total repression mode. In Venezuela the loyalty of the military could not be counted upon, especially early on, something Chavez knew full well, himself being an anti-democratic coupist officer. That's why you don't see the military shooting into crowds, and when the GNB does it, it is a few agents operating in small groups, not entire units shooting into big mobs of protesters. The people who are willing to take that step are there, they're just not going to do so while formally being part of any state entity.
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Jul 14, 2017 17:45
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My own current care package is like that, Chuck. Also filled with basic dental products, rice, beans, lentils, and a bunch of medicine. I'm even sending anti-flea collars for my dogs since my mom can't find them. And a pair of shoes for her since she can't afford new ones, even though I also send her money every month.
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Jul 14, 2017 17:49
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Reminder: Maduro is already exactly the kind of right-wing dictator the CIA would have installed, just draped in a thin film of leftist talk. Right down to the "well the country's in a mess but hey! lots of oil exports to America!" scenarios.
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Jul 14, 2017 18:03
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Bob le Moche posted:Uh oh looks like the commies aren't getting properly silenced by the authorities anymore, time to call for foreign intervention.
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Jul 14, 2017 18:04
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