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Night10194 posted:Well I mean they were originally meant to be returning Solar Exalted. Messengers are just the dudes that get mind raped by trying to comprehend a message from something too big for them to handle. The Wang Xian/totally-not-the-celestial-exalted-in-our-later-published works-we-promise *wink wink* are something else altogether for the most part. It kind of flip flops. Really, it seemed like they kind of waffled on it a bit according to the writer and whatever internal processes White Wolf had back then. Though, funnily enough some of the higher types of Exalted and UCS in 2e can potentially do that to mortals if they go "loud" around them with their powers. The whole "too big to comprehend and will destroy your ability to see/hear/whatever if you try" is a classical cliche in media during the 90's. Even Buffy and Angel had it. It hasn't stopped there too. Supernatural has done the same with it's angels. Exalted would probably call the imbued heroic mortals. In that setting they'd also possibly qualify as blessed mortals too. Though i'm pretty sure the implied mind rape kind of takes that off the table. Now what Swedish Dracula does with them though is anyone's best guess. Odds are it probably won't be good though. Archonex fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Jul 10, 2017 |
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Jul 10, 2017 17:49
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I was just joking about the tendency of Solars to go crazy and/or authoritarian since they're a walking example of what a nightmare the world would be if Great Man theory was actually true.
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Jul 10, 2017 18:02
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Night10194 posted:I was just joking about the tendency of Solars to go crazy and/or authoritarian since they're a walking example of what a nightmare the world would be if Great Man theory was actually true. Yeah, having a bunch of progressively insane godlike humans in control of the world is probably a really dark take on the Great Man theory. Now let me tell you about how awesome mage's are.  Though the best part of the whole "Solar's are all bugfuck crazy time bombs waiting to happen" thing that gets tossed around is that it's not really true. At least, in 2e. It's an outside drawback to being an Exalt that can be broken pretty easily once the UCS or Solar's know what the heck is going on. Hell, all the UCS has to do is just drat and then instantly redeem the Solar's and the GC gets lifted for good. Archonex fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Jul 10, 2017 |
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Jul 10, 2017 18:17
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The Great Curse should just be the excuse Exalted give for their extremely human tendencies towards corruption and insanity. "Oh, yeah! It's definitely tragic wizard/god poo poo, not the fact that I'm so persuasive that almost no-one on the planet can disagree with me for more than a minute." E: I mean, Requiem's factions are explicitly all the lies that vampires tell themselves to try to get away from the simple truth that they're parasites and the world would be better off without them and people seem to like that.
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Jul 10, 2017 18:29
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Night10194 posted:The Great Curse should just be the excuse Exalted give for their extremely human tendencies towards corruption and insanity. "Oh, yeah! It's definitely tragic wizard/god poo poo, not the fact that I'm so persuasive that almost no-one on the planet can disagree with me for more than a minute." That's basically what many low wisdom mages do. Though I kind of disagree that the Exalted should simply be corruptible assholes. Being an Exalt isn't about the dismal and long slow march to the grave or the decay of the self that Vampire is about. It's explicitly stated in the opening books to be about epic deific heroism of the legendary type and the crazy bullshit in your life that comes with it. The whole "every supernatural mortal has inherently corruptible aspects that inevitably ruin their lives" thing in the WoD doesn't play as well in a high powered game line where you actually theoretically can literally save the day, get the girl, and rule from your totally bitchin' palace ever after if you do everything the right way. Or to put it another way: For vampires their lies are because they're in denial of having to be monstrous predators that are eternally sidelined from the world. And if they're not dealing with the guilt inherent to their state then odds are they're on the downward slide to being a monstrously mindless predator. Requiem's default game style tends to be a story of small sacrifices and atrocities piling up over time until the person is a warped and malignant version of the person they could have been. For Solar's being an Exalt means basically being repeatedly told you're one of the most important power players on the planet even by your enemies (Who will literally hunt you down the moment they know you're a newbie Exalt.) and oh by the way don't gently caress up or everyone dying is all your fault. Even without the curse put on them it's no wonder that some of them start to crack under the pressure and get a bit nuts. Especially since the UCS is too busy dealing with being a shut in to tell them what is or isn't the things they should be doing. Edit: Adding the curse in on top of that also gives the players and default heroes of the story something tangible to strive against that goes beyond the physical. Something that isn't an enemy they can immediately punch to death but instead being projected by an enemy to inside of them; their own flaws and foibles being steadily artificially magnified a thousand fold to be on par with their potential greatness. Striving against that is some pretty classically heroic stuff, which jives with the original intent behind Exalted. Whether and how they succeed in that fight probably relegates them either to the category of classical heroes of mythology or the tragic byronic heroes of the plays of later eras. It also makes the narrative behind the Solar's fall a hell of a lot more interesting than "lol humans are corrupt by nature". Along with opening up far more complex and interesting stuff to explore within a game than "These are undead gods, go punch them to death with your magical kung-fu god powers and save the world.". Of course it's all a moot point now that Holden and Morke were given 3e to do. That Holden never really got the point behind the Great Curse was always pretty frustrating. But 3e's stuck as it is so there's no use complaining about that I guess. Archonex fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Jul 10, 2017 |
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Jul 10, 2017 18:42
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Am I not reading you right, or are you saying that the great curse as an alien mind virus that exploits flaws in your programming - and which has a hacky, trivial solution repeatable for all subjects - is "classically heroic stuff" while the great curse as the natural consequence of humans being granted incredible power is "lol"?
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Jul 10, 2017 19:39
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Ferrinus posted:Am I not reading you right, or are you saying that the great curse as an alien mind virus that exploits flaws in your programming - and which has a hacky, trivial solution repeatable for all subjects - is "classically heroic stuff" while the great curse as the natural consequence of humans being granted incredible power is "lol"? That's not how the Great Curse works at all. And no, that's not what I said.
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Jul 10, 2017 19:44
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Archonex posted:That's not how the Great Curse works at all. And no, that's not what I said. It's looooking like it is, especially since in your previous post you say that the best part of the 2E Great Curse is that it can be easily dispelled via one weird trick from a mom. Which is really, really weird, since that seems like the exact opposite of "classically heroic stuff".
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Jul 10, 2017 19:52
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Also you can stop being afraid of what White Wolf will do with Exalted. The answer is 'ignore it completely and let OP handle it' because Swedracula hates Exalted.
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Jul 10, 2017 19:55
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Ferrinus posted:It's looooking like it is, especially since in your previous post you say that the best part of the 2E Great Curse is that it can be easily dispelled via one weird trick from a mom. Which is really, really weird, since that seems like the exact opposite of "classically heroic stuff". Well when you rephrase someone else's words to mean what you want them to mean then yes, I suppose it would sound like that. As for the latter part of your post, it's stated in the Abyssals book that redeeming an Exalt to Solar status puts them out of the reach of the Great Curse forever. So if even one Deathlord has a change of heart then a whole bunch of Exalt's have their odds of getting fixed increase by a lot. Possibly all of them depending on how far word of those redeemed Exalt's spreads. Alternatively as a social oriented epic quest if the UCS gets told what really happened to the Solar's then he's going to magic up a fix pretty fast. Part of what's implied to send him into a slump in 2e is that he thought that the solar's really were corrupt of their own volition. Given what's been written about him the realization that his chosen didn't so much fall from grace as they were sneakily pushed would probably piss him off something fierce. However given the default assumption of the setting that latter method relies on getting an invitation to (or invading) heaven and then talking him out of his slump while dealing with the influence of being near literally the most addictive game ever. And before all of that the PC's would have to get one of the few beings that have an inkling that something was up with the Solar's to fess up. And lol at the idea of bringing around one of the Deathlords given their many, many, many issues without an Exalt with the divine equivalent of a doctorate in psychotherapy. They make the dysfunction of Vampire look tame by comparison. It's not just "one weird trick to munchkin" since any potential fix for the Curse pretty much involves the Exalted equivalent of multiple epic quests. Multiple epic quests that may bring them into contact with things that would happily exploit the Great Curse (And by extension their own flaws.) against them. But it is entirely true that once that point is past then there's not going to be many corrupted Solar's save the ones who actively want to be that way. There's multiple possible outcomes where the UCS or some other entity can pretty much mass manufacture a fix once they know what really went on during the first age. It's getting there that's a problem. Mors Rattus posted:Also you can stop being afraid of what White Wolf will do with Exalted. The answer is 'ignore it completely and let OP handle it' because Swedracula hates Exalted. I figured as much. Still, it's nice to know that he doesn't give a poo poo about it. I'm not sure i'd want to see how he made Exalted "relevant" to modern politics. Archonex fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Jul 10, 2017 |
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Jul 10, 2017 20:05
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Archonex posted:Well when you rephrase someone else's words to mean what you want them to mean then yes, I suppose it would sound like that. I rephrased your words to mean what you want them to mean, though. You think that it's not only good that the great curse is an externally-imposed debuff with concrete and repeatable solutions, but that it's more "classically heroic" than the alternative. Which is totally bonkers. Like, the exact opposite is true. It's actually an extremely modern, liberal, technocratic outlook to decide that the cruel excesses of the powerful are just a bug in the system that can be removed via clever troubleshooting and rules updates that luckily preserve all the actual power.
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Jul 10, 2017 20:28
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Ferrinus posted:I rephrased your words to mean what you want them to mean, though. So it's not that you misunderstood me. It's that you're putting words in my mouth. Teaches me to try and explain things in a reasonable and  reply rather than just giving a poo poo post response, I guess. gently caress it. Think what you want Ferrinus.
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Jul 10, 2017 20:31
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Archonex posted:So it's not that you misunderstood me. It's that you're putting words in my mouth. I'm not putting words in your mouth. If I was, you'd be able to point out what I said that was wrong or misleading. Thus far all you've told me is that fixing the great curse is harder than I make it sound. ...but "can be broken pretty easily" is your exact phrasing. So where exactly have I misrepresented you? How am I wrong to say that you like, and somehow believe to be "classically heroic", the Great Curse as a dispellable debuff rather than a commentary on human fallibility?
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Jul 10, 2017 20:36
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Night10194 posted:E: I mean, Requiem's factions are explicitly all the lies that vampires tell themselves to try to get away from the simple truth that they're parasites and the world would be better off without them and people seem to like that. Vampire is humanity in microcosm, interesting.
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Jul 10, 2017 20:36
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nofather posted:Vampire is humanity in microcosm, interesting. Edgy. You better hope that Swedracula doesn't read this thread. If he does I fully expect him to drop a hot take like that in the core book.
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Jul 10, 2017 20:48
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I think we're due for another reminder that this is the World of Darkness thread, and we have a dedicated Exalted thread. If I have to read people arguing in here about Exalted, and more specifically the one thing more tedious than Mage Chat (what the Great Curse is/if it exists/how it could be improved/what it's narratively trying to say) one more time I'm going to lose my drat mind.
Daeren fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Jul 10, 2017 |
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Jul 10, 2017 21:35
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Archonex posted:Edgy. You better hope that Swedracula doesn't read this thread. If he does I fully expect him to drop a hot take like that in the core book. Doesn't make it any less true. Mind, just because the world would be better off without us isn't enough justification for suicide or whatever. We've got our right to live, detrimental to others or not. No reason vampires should feel any different. I think it would be harder, with the Jyhad young versus old bit and the Curse of Cain, rather than any natural blame for things. It might fit for Werewolf the Apocalypse, though. nofather fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Jul 10, 2017 |
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Jul 10, 2017 21:58
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nofather posted:Doesn't make it any less true. Mind, just because the world would be better off without us isn't enough justification for suicide or whatever. We've got our right to live, detrimental to others or not. No reason vampires should feel any different. Oh yeah, i'm not disagreeing. Requiem even name drops vampire society as just being a warped version of human society in one of the books. I think Blood or Danse Macabre? 2e even has a fiction segment with two vampires corresponding about how humanity and technology are slowly letting humanity be as "alone together" (One of the character's ways of putting it.) as they are. I've got no confidence that Swedracula could pull off an idea like that without coming off like a hardcore edge lord though. Archonex fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Jul 10, 2017 |
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Jul 10, 2017 22:15
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Let's go back to fantasizing about Gay Spartans suddenly attacking vampires with glowstick lances that do unsoakable damage. Avengers, motherfucker.
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Jul 10, 2017 23:01
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MonsieurChoc posted:Let's go back to fantasizing about Gay Spartans suddenly attacking vampires with glowstick lances that do unsoakable damage. Avengers, motherfucker. The picture of the old man shoving a spoon straight through a Garou really sold Cleave.
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Jul 10, 2017 23:03
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MonsieurChoc posted:Let's go back to fantasizing about Gay Spartans suddenly attacking vampires with glowstick lances that do unsoakable damage. Avengers, motherfucker. If there's ever an End of the World event for the nWoD, it had better involve the Ascending Ones slathering buff, shirtless Aegis Kai Doru warriors in sacred oils so they can go kick the Crone in the taint. Terrorforge fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Jul 10, 2017 |
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Jul 10, 2017 23:09
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Night10194 posted:Well I mean they were originally meant to be returning Solar Exalted. HtR was developed and published first, so if anything the Solars were (originally) meant to be the Imbued, not vice versa.
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Jul 11, 2017 01:51
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Terrorforge posted:If there's ever an End of the World event for the nWoD, it had better involve the Ascending Ones slathering buff, shirtless Aegis Kai Doru warriors in sacred oils so they can go kick the Crone in the taint. That, or go full Shin Megami Tensei.
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Jul 11, 2017 02:05
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MonsieurChoc posted:That, or go full Shin Megami Tensei. So, what, "three people become hunters, one becomes a God-Machine worshipper, one gets turned into a vampire, and the last one kills all the Exarchs?"
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Jul 11, 2017 08:15
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MonsieurChoc posted:That, or go full Shin Megami Tensei. What sort of Terrorforge posted:If there's ever an End of the World event for the nWoD, it had better involve the Ascending Ones slathering buff, shirtless Aegis Kai Doru warriors in sacred oils so they can go kick the Crone in the taint. Given the Ascending One's habit of using their alchemical skills to be heavily involved in the South American drug trade I can't help but think that this would end hilariously badly. Especially when you consider that their fabled end game tier elixir kills the user once it wears off. Archonex fucked around with this message at 11:34 on Jul 11, 2017 |
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Jul 11, 2017 11:26
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Poltergrift posted:So, what, "three people become hunters, one becomes a God-Machine worshipper, one gets turned into a vampire, and the last one kills all the Exarchs?" Sounds about right.
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Jul 11, 2017 11:39
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Archonex posted:What sort of I assume he is referring to Nocturne, where the world ends in the first 10? minutes and your body is turned into that if a demon via parasite. You can recruit demons in it, but you fight along side them. The game is about fighting so you can kill your rivals and impose your will on the rebirth of the world. sleepy.eyes fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Jul 11, 2017 |
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Jul 11, 2017 13:50
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He's referring to the original SMT, where you're a random Japanese teenager with a futuristic ipad in one hand and a katana in the other, who got sent a demon summoning program by the friendly ghost of Steven Hawking just before the American Ambassador, who is actually Thor, who is serving Yahweh, ordered a nuclear strike on Japan to stop Japanese ultranationalists who were in league with Satan from taking over the country. Original SMT owned.
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Jul 11, 2017 14:03
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That does sound pretty great. Have there been any write-ups about the American Revolution? I would love to hear that Ben Franklin was actually some kind of stupid monster or Washington was an enchanted garden rake or whatever.
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Jul 11, 2017 14:11
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Basically for Original SMT imagine if a random teenager was gifted the ability to summon and control demons stuck in Go Loud mode and an insane catastrophe suddenly stuck every demon and angel in full on overt status while the god machine went into its end game and tried to build a great millennial tower and flood the earth and mighty demon kings tried to bring chaos/freedom to everything no matter who it would hurt. And meanwhile a bunch of normal humans try to get all this insane poo poo to go away, possibly using the summoning program to use crazy superdemons and gods as pokemon. That would be an appropriate apocalypse event.
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Jul 11, 2017 14:15
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Archonex posted:What sort of
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Jul 11, 2017 14:51
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A small tweet for inspirational ways to use traditional magic (I'm probably using this term wrong) in the modern day: https://twitter.com/Gossenphilosoph/status/884769533810143237
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Jul 12, 2017 14:36
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That basically comes straight out of Dennou Coil, where one of the protagonists confuses the virus-scan programs that are always going around erasing her bootleg software by drawing a chalk circle with a torii symbol on it, which the program interprets as a sign that the space within is under the jurisdiction of another department, causing it to see whatever is in the circle as invisible.
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Jul 12, 2017 14:49
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don't know if this has been posted yet but the Newberry Library in Chicago is crowdsourcing the translation / transcription of some old occult texts - http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/newberry-library-transcribing-manuscripts
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Jul 12, 2017 19:59
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Kibner posted:A small tweet for inspirational ways to use traditional magic (I'm probably using this term wrong) in the modern day: That is rad as gently caress and should be posted in the Warhammer 40K thread too. Tech priest loving nerds would be all over that.
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Jul 12, 2017 20:01
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Matthew Dawkins on war in Dark Eras books:quote:Each game line offers something different to the spheres of human conflict. Vampires may prey on the hapless inhabitants of POW camps as they find there is nowhere to run, while the Lost may find the carnage and devastation of war reminiscent of some of the realms beyond the Hedge. Perhaps the terror of battle might even make the whims of the True Fae seem sane. DE2 still not funded, a week in. 200 dollars away right this second, and then 15,000 from its first stretch goal after that.
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Jul 13, 2017 15:29
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Archonex posted:That is rad as gently caress and should be posted in the Warhammer 40K thread too. Tech priest loving nerds would be all over that. To interfere with a machine spirit is heresy, citizen. Report your local inquisition office to be gifted His holy punishment.
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Jul 13, 2017 15:34
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Dark Eras 2 has funded, taking 20 hours or so to raise that last 200 dollars. I'm calling it - it will end before it hits a stretch goal.
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Jul 13, 2017 20:25
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Isn't that kind of unprecedented for an Onyx Path kickstarter? Usually they hit their opening goal within the first day.
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Jul 13, 2017 20:44
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Rand Brittain posted:Isn't that kind of unprecedented for an Onyx Path kickstarter? Usually they hit their opening goal within the first day. I think Swedracula's antics are hitting their bottom line tbh.
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