|
Talorat posted:This is a really compelling take which also hints at a possible solution. Could it be that the solution to anti-feminism is simply creating more dating opportunity for young people? I imagine it's a lot harder to think of women as garbage when you are interacting with them frequently, maybe having the state promote programs for young people to meet each other like in Scandinavia would help alleviate this issue. Nooooooo that is not the solution! Misogynistic behavior is way more prevalent than the alt right. There are people who sleep with a different woman every day of the week who have equally toxic views about women. Greater social interaction opportunities are important, but the focus needs to be on explicitly deconstructing these behaviors, because they will not fix themselves in the majority of cases.
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 20:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 19:21 |
|
|
there is not enough bubble wrap to insulate the spacetoasters of the world from the maddening idea 'other people have desires I personally do not have, as a result of which I might not get mine fulfilled as fast as I want.' when you take away tumblr they will whine about college students, when you take away college students they will whine about welfare queens, and when you take away their welfare queens they will whine about academia. material conditions are what produce these people. you will get nowhere trying to make the cultural expressions of those conditions verboten.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 20:48
|
|
|
"Hey guys maybe we should be sensitive to the feelings of shrieking manchildren and tell the Steven Universe fandom to tone it down a little"
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 20:53
|
|
|
It's more constructive to view the alt-right and its inverse doppelganger "Tumblr identitarianism" as symptomatic outcomes of a failing liberal social hegemony. The reason we're able to have extended adolescence into adulthood, and radical social alienation for millions, is because of a liberal social order that excessively burdens individuals with the responsibility of socializing themselves - within the context of a society that values commodity exchanges above all other concerns. The spheres between work and personal life are also radically alienated.. There's supposed to be a distinct separation between your work life and the personal life, which effectively prevents the development of meaningful solidarity among workers and reduces the chance for social intervention on the antisocial or socially stunted - when they are granted the "freedom" to choose what they want to do with their "personal" time. If they choose to spend all their time dedicated to a hobby which lacks social interaction, it becomes impossible to reach them. Their antisocial tendencies are allowed to fester by a society which is at the same time, individually permissive yet culturally restrictive. What the internet has done is given greater powers for the socially alienated to form group identities with other antisocials, and to mutually reinforce their delusional disorders. The left-liberal manifestation being the fetishization of their own constructed identities which are alien to the cultural mainstream, and the alt-right manifestation being the fetishization of their own base racial or traditional backgrounds. These groups are all comprised, broadly speaking, of the "losers" of society in one way or another, whether it's social, sexual, or economic. It's a mistake to assume that the sole motivation of the alt-right is sexual frustration because of the major overlap between manosphere and incel communities with alt-right politics. A lot of alt-right figures are sexually succesful, they do get laid a lot, some of them are even married with children and living out their ideals of forming a nuclear family. But they also may be poor or unemployed, or were raised within a severely restrictive religious or political subculture and thus were socially alienated from the mainstream. It's important to identify the liberal hegemony as the cause of all these problems, because it also cultivates antisocial tendencies even in people who are considered successful according to its own criteria. Social callousness runs the gamut among all categories. People who get laid a lot may still harbor sexist values, or may be socially abusive. The economically well to do are, certainly, calloused to the plight of the poor and seek to eliminate all safety nets in the pursuit of their own personal enrichment. It's liberalism itself which is an antisocial disorder. When Marx said that "capitalism produces its own gravediggers," it does so with either socialist or reactionary tendencies. Socialism or barbarism. What both sides understand at their core, is that the prevailing social order is self-destructive. It's the imperative of the political Left to formulate a program which offers a way out of this self-destructive social cycle, and to build up the institutions which can enable all people to become fully realized as human beings.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 20:55
|
|
|
lol @ creating more dating opportunity bruh online datings been a thing for a decade it is the norm by this point
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 21:01
|
|
|
a lot of my single friends are on tinder all the time now
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 21:06
|
|
|
I broadly agree with Pener, but here's the secret with that: you're going to get greater returns from the Tumblr group than from the alt-right, as far as guiding people towards true class consciousness and left organizing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 21:16
|
|
|
apokaladle posted:I broadly agree with Pener, but here's the secret with that: you're going to get greater returns from the Tumblr group than from the alt-right, as far as guiding people towards true class consciousness and left organizing. The Tumblr group isn't going to offer meaningful returns though. The alt-right/tumblr thing are representations of subcultures and will likely never achieve a meaningful critical mass in social or political terms. The issue is with the prevailing state of society itself, not the symptoms of social alienation that we find fascinating. Even pinning the blame for these groups on individual responsibility, as is often done ITT, is a manifestation of liberal ideology. It denies the historical sociocultural forces which generate radical social alienation, because it is capitalism itself which creates the conditions for it. It's not one or the other which has to be won over, but the culture itself. A "cultural revolution" if you will 
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 21:22
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 21:25
|
|
|
Pitchfork Media is back, baby
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 21:25
|
|
|
the bitcoin of weed posted:this is at least kind of interesting If you're interested in reading more about it, we have a thread here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2827275
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 21:26
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 21:28
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 21:28
|
|
|
this is the guy who watches the new Planet of the Apes movies and roots for the humans
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 21:32
|
|
|
Pener Kropoopkin posted:The Tumblr group isn't going to offer meaningful returns though. The alt-right/tumblr thing are representations of subcultures and will likely never achieve a meaningful critical mass in social or political terms. The issue is with the prevailing state of society itself, not the symptoms of social alienation that we find fascinating. Even pinning the blame for these groups on individual responsibility, as is often done ITT, is a manifestation of liberal ideology. It denies the historical sociocultural forces which generate radical social alienation, because it is capitalism itself which creates the conditions for it. It's not one or the other which has to be won over, but the culture itself. A "cultural revolution" if you will I mean, how do you envision achieving this cultural revolution without the masses who create and consume the culture? I'm telling you, at least in the US, the election was a major shock that left lots of people desperate and grasping for answers. The kids I knew who were super into Tumblr were, almost without exception, teens/early 20s, queer with family/friends/surroundings that weren't amenable to that, often dealing with some variety of abuse. These people were just as alienated as anyone else, and I've seen some of them jump into organizations like the DSA. Whatever your opinion of them, that is a meaningful change compared to a year ago. ^^ Haha what the gently caress. That photo needs to be preserved so that our descendants may forever know our shame woke kaczynski has issued a correction as of 21:35 on Jul 13, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 21:32
|
|
|
Ze Pollack posted:there is not enough bubble wrap to insulate the spacetoasters of the world from the maddening idea 'other people have desires I personally do not have, as a result of which I might not get mine fulfilled as fast as I want.' I'm melting down.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 21:37
|
|
|
apokaladle posted:I mean, how do you envision achieving this cultural revolution without the masses who create and consume the culture? I'm telling you, at least in the US, the election was a major shock that left lots of people desperate and grasping for answers. Those are definitely good things, I'm not even saying that you should attack the Tumblristas or whatever, only that it's not really worth worrying about. They'll ultimately do what they want, and if a lot of them are joining the DSA it's because the socialist agenda is offering a clearly constructive path towards liberation. The people who create and consume the culture aren't internet subcultures. In fact, the groups which create and consume culture are broadly separated. It's the bourgeoisie which creates the bulk of our cultural output, and the masses which consume it. The aim is to enable the people to become a cultural force in their own right, and to overthrow the bourgeois domination of society.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 21:37
|
|
|
I feel like you're kind of walking into a trap, though; by defining radical weirdo youth cultures as losers in the way that you did - establishing that yes, virtually everybody in them has some economic or social or emotional damage that's led them into the arms of strange tribes - you're proposing that there has to be some normative baseline within the masses that are winners if only by comparison I have no idea if that sentence makes sense or not I guess what I'm trying to say is that the left's endgame is convincing the majority of Americans that they're collectively losers under our current system, and in that sense it seems weird to have this dialogue that begins with "those people whose alienation is clearly peaking under this system already? ignore them, we need to focus on people for whom the current system is slightly more functional"
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 21:46
|
|
|
Business Gorillas posted:Look you can plug your ears and scream about it all you want but tumblr provides real life analouges to what the alt right is shrieking about The funny thing is, so many of those Tumblr blogs with these crazy opinions are very obviously trolls, and it points to how very much people are so desperate to have a left-wing target to fire at that they'll take each one of these things at face value without question. Not to say that there are no peculiar people on Tumblr at all, just that one never sees anyone asking "could this person be talking poo poo to wind people up?" when it comes to getting angry about "Tumblrinas"
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 21:52
|
|
|
spacetoaster posted:I'm melting down. remember that time you said a black guy getting stabbed to death at random by a neo-nazi must have had it coming we could put you in a padded room with only childrens' television to watch and you'd be complaining about how the yellow teletubby is cultural marxism by hour three
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 21:54
|
|
|
Ze Pollack posted:remember that time you said a black guy getting stabbed to death at random by a neo-nazi must have had it coming Remember when I said it was a (poor) attempt at humor and apologized? Also, it was a stolen valor joke. You're adding the race/nazi thing. Are you stalking me?
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 21:55
|
|
|
wizard on a water slide posted:I feel like you're kind of walking into a trap, though; by defining radical weirdo youth cultures as losers in the way that you did - establishing that yes, virtually everybody in them has some economic or social or emotional damage that's led them into the arms of strange tribes - you're proposing that there has to be some normative baseline within the masses that are winners if only by comparison The normative baseline of any liberal society is comprised of those who are considered to have "won" or who are "succesful." That doesn't necessarily mean that what's considered the social norm is actually representative of a commonality among the masses. The liberal social order perverts what is considered ideal by narrowing it down to a relatively tiny ruling class. The ideal state of the individual is being a sexually promiscuous, loving parent, who is also his or her own boss. That's an insane standard for anybody to follow, but insofar as people reject that ideal - they aren't willing to directly challenge it because they're willing to settle for "success" in one or two categories. The prevailing order seems fine if you're getting laid, or successfully raising a family, or financially secure. Yet without being able to achieve all standards of success, you're not considered to be fully realized as a human being. The aim of the Left is to show that a better world is possible, in which all people are capable of being fully realized. That the imposition of social, sexual, and economic hierarchies are the results of material and social forces rather than a natural order of things - that things are as they should be.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 22:00
|
|
|
spacetoaster posted:Remember when I said it was a (poor) attempt at humor and apologized? and now someone remembering a thing you did has you crying persecution. seriously, Business Gorillas. you can build no space safe enough for these people to be comfortable, because for them, comfort means a feeling of persecution by those goddamn libs. not even the most thorough stalinist wet-dream of a purge could prevent them from finding something, anything, to feel righteously offended by.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 22:02
|
|
|
Ze Pollack posted:and now someone remembering a thing you did has you crying persecution. True.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 22:05
|
|
|
Pener Kropoopkin posted:The aim of the Left is to show that a better world is possible, in which all people are capable of being fully realized. That the imposition of social, sexual, and economic hierarchies are the results of material and social forces rather than a natural order of things - that things are as they should be. Building further on this, this is why the chief political agenda of liberals in the United States is to act as gatekeepers for the "Realm of the Possible." Their goal is to suppress the expectations of the masses, and to lead them into settling for a less than ideal state of society - because they're already on top. They have a lot to lose if the state of things as they are is challenged by an agenda that seeks to socialize wealth, healthcare, and etc. Their conservative opposition is far more tolerable in that sense, because conservatives only ever seek to limit the margins of liberal freedoms, and a fully realized member of the bourgeoisie can effectively skirt any conservative restrictions on their freedom, because the rules don't apply to people who can buy their way out of them.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 22:07
|
|
|
I can't give a poo poo about the Steven Universe Caucus
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 22:08
|
|
|
Also who says I'm interested in coddling pepes or shutting tumblr down? If it was up to me id let the tumblr kids and pepe scream into the void forever while we build class consciousness with literally anyone that can get offline for more than 3 hours a day
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 22:10
|
|
|
Business Gorillas posted:Also who says I'm interested in coddling pepes or shutting tumblr down? quote:Screaming about white genocide and safe spaces would be a lot less effective if they couldn't back it up with tumblr posts about how wearing strapless dresses is a microagression and people breaking down in public because someone refused to refer to them as Xir is the incorrect statement it would not be less effective, because they would just move on to the next in the long line of Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! has issued a correction as of 22:17 on Jul 13, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 22:14
|
|
|
I think Pener is broadly correct, in particular about how the modern workplace discourages social bonds among individual workers. I would like to further call out that the changing cultural norms regarding overall length of employment have a big effect on that. In previous generations, it was normal for workers to stay with the same job and/or company for decades, if not for their entire working life, but now it's not unusual to see people changing jobs every couple years. The people you worked with were folks that you were gonna spend just as much time with as your spouse, if not more, since you might go for a drink after work or do something on the weekend, but now? Why bother, everyone's gonna be gone in a couple years and there'll be a new batch continually rotating in. I've been at my current company now for a bit under ten years, and I'm 5th in seniority out of a bit under 50 people. A lot of that is the whole "only way to get a meaningful raise is to switch companies" thing that happens to so many workers, but my experience is pretty normal from the folks I talk to. That, more than anything else, alienates workers from each other and the loving gig economy is the whole idea being taken to its horrible end.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 22:19
|
|
|
"Just don't provoke them" is loving bullshit and it's the same thing my family was taught back in the old country. It didn't save them from the Pogroms and it didn't save them from the Nazis. The murder of assimilated Jews was not the fault of the unassimilated standing out too much. It was the fault of the antisemites. I'm not a big fan of tumblr bullshit; I find it annoying, small-minded, and intensely smug. But to blame idiot tumblrs for this neo-Fascist scourge is disgusting. (In my case, 'The Old Country' is Hungary, where none of my family now survives. Even the lowest estimates of the holocaust's toll in Hungary are over half the population of Jews, many of whom, like my family, were highly assimilated into the dominant culture. Knowing that, I can't really joke about Fascists of any kind, regardless of how inept they may seem.) Eela6 has issued a correction as of 23:04 on Jul 13, 2017 |
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 22:56
|
|
|
i think we should probably not take the "tumblr peoplea re SO CRAZY" thing at face value since the definition is rapidly stretched by the same people from yeah this two spirit rhinoceros man with type 2 diabetes who takes frog hormones sure is weird to but isn't also this transgendered person who wants to be recognized terrible??????? case in point: Business Gorillas posted:they couldn't back it up with tumblr posts about how wearing strapless dresses is a microagression and people breaking down in public because someone refused to refer to them as Xir
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 23:03
|
|
|
The actual issue with "Tumblr people" isn't their constructed identities, but the callout culture that is paradoxically segregationist. Liberals getting "woke" just end up co-opting the worst aspects of that kind of social alienation.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 23:08
|
|
|
b-but the Dead Kennedys (and any punk worth listening to) were ANTI-FASCISM! so triggered right now yeah it's not tumblr people deciding queers were human, feminism is good, and mental health shouldn't be stigmatized that's the problem, it's adopting the language of queer theory and feminist critiques to tear down and silence anyone who didn't pass ideological purity without often knowing what terms they used really meant. Market Liberals didn't adopt the same sort of token and perverted identity politics on a whim, they did it because they saw it worked. Coolness Averted has issued a correction as of 23:17 on Jul 13, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 23:14
|
|
|
Pener Kropoopkin posted:The actual issue with "Tumblr people" isn't their constructed identities, but the callout culture that is paradoxically segregationist. Liberals getting "woke" just end up co-opting the worst aspects of that kind of social alienation. then aren't we just participating in that callout culture when we call out tumblrinas or whatever
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 23:18
|
|
|
the bitcoin of weed posted:I wonder what unfuckable basement men did before the 1990s Star Trek, D&D, and being really into playing chess against Robots. Also Unfuckables before the 1990s tended to be much better kinds of people. E: Models were a big thing too. Model trains, model planes, ect.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 23:21
|
|
|
Montasque posted:Star Trek, D&D, and being really into playing chess against Robots. Back when I got started, which sounds like ancient history, back then the demographics of people who were into computer games, was totally different, in my opinion, then they are today. Back then, computers were more expensive, which made them more exclusive to people who were maybe at a certain income level, or education level. So the people that played computer games 15 years ago were that type of person. They probably didn't watch television as much, and the instant gratification era hadn't quite grown the way it has lately. I think in the last 5 or 6 years, the demographics have really changed, now this is my opinion, because computers are less expensive so more people can afford them. More "average" people now feel they should own one. There's also the influence of the game consoles as well. So most of these people have gotten used to shoot-em' up kind of games on the consoles. Now they want to get that kind of experience on their computers.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 23:25
|
|
|
Traditionalist Workers Party is one of the laziest attempts to rebrand NAZI I have ever seen. At least the KKK and OG American Nazis didn't hide what they loving were. Then again this guy is straight up Roman saluting, so maybe he didn't get the memo.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 23:27
|
|
|
Al! posted:then aren't we just participating in that callout culture when we call out tumblrinas or whatever in as much as we're being intolerant to nazis and the kkk by not letting them be part of our society
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 23:29
|
|
|
Coolness Averted posted:in as much as we're being intolerant to nazis and the kkk by not letting them be part of our society I'm cool with that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 23:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 19:21 |
|
|
hmmmmmm i never thought of it that way maybe weird gay teens are the real nazis after all
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 23:45
|
|