|
fantastic in plastic posted:In general, counteroffers are risky. They might be offering you one because they value your skill set and look forward to many years of working together, sure. They might also be offering you because you leaving right now would impact their bottom line and they want to manage you out of the organization on their terms rather than on yours. It's impossible to know for sure, so there's risk and I think the thread consensus is not to accept a counteroffer without a lot of good reasons. It's been 10 years since I've looked at the non-compete, but AFAIK it's avoidable with a simple buyout. This isn't the first time someone has jumped ship.
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 00:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 06:28 |
|
|
Particularly considering that your employer has already given you a raise to try to stave off the threat of you leaving, I don't think you should try and get a counter offer from them. Right now you've gone from easy profit to slightly less easy profit. A 40% raise makes you significantly more expensive for your current employer, and they'll be wondering where it stops. They interpreted your last interaction as a counter opportunity and you didn't give them a goal where you'd be satisfied and wouldn't jump ship. (Which, honestly, you should never be satisfied and guaranteed not jump ship!) This is poor communication on both their part and yours: they didn't ask you what you wanted to stick around and stop looking for counter offers, and you didn't tell them that the raise they gave you wasn't enough to actually keep you around. Now you have this awkward position where you could conceivably stick around except the optics of it will make it risky for you. If you can get it, I advise you to take your 40% raise, see how other companies operate, and start off with clear and open communication about your expectations and what you need.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 18:49
|
|
|
Good advice all around. I wasn't looking to get greedy, mostly wondering what the general etiquette is in the situation. I'm sure this entire thing could have been handled better, but so far both sides have said they appreciate how open I've been about what's going on. And I had already told my current employer there was a chance this would come up again after the wedding (and would require significantly more money to make me consider it -- but 40% would definitely qualify as that).
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2017 20:11
|
|
|
I haven't posted in here but I've read all 25 pages and just negotiated myself an offer for 25.42% more salary than I was making (my first job interview in nine years) So I would like to thank this thread and all of its posters, you are all wonderful.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2017 11:14
|
|
|
Hambilderberglar posted:I haven't posted in here but I've read all 25 pages and just negotiated myself an offer for 25.42% more salary than I was making (my first job interview in nine years) Congratulations on the accomplishment!
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2017 18:12
|
|
|
EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:Congratulations on the accomplishment! Even if I did drop the ball both by giving away my previous salary and specifying a range I came out very well for my area. I'm from the EU so my experience is maybe a little different than there, but if there are any burning questions by anyone I'd be happy to answer them.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2017 18:40
|
|
|
Hambilderberglar posted:Thank you! We've had some prior posters ask for advice, posting from the EU and I never feel as comfortable giving advice. I know that my experiences with negotiation are definitely culturally influenced by residing in the US, same with general structures around how employment works. If you could detail what you think was different from other people's reported experiences and what advice we generally give that seems counter to your experiences, that would be really handy. Also about what you think holds for the EU labor market! And congratulations! 
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2017 15:29
|
|
|
Any advice for negotiating a raise? I'm with a big consultancy firm and was up for promotion. I know I got the promotion but we haven't talked salary yet. My BATNA sucks, because I really don't want to leave this organization, and in any case my ability to move elsewhere gets significantly better after this promotion. Other than asking around for what others make, and seeing what the same position pays elsewhere or to other people, I'm not sure what I can do. I'd appreciate any advice.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2017 16:51
|
|
|
Do you use a grade structure at your firm? I'm guessing yes. You'll end up somewhere within a range of possible grades for your position no matter what, so if you can figure out what that range is you know where you can shoot for it. I would shop around internally to figure out what other people make in your current and future roles if it's a big firm. I'm kind of guessing from your post that you're getting promoted to engagement manager or similar title. The key is to emphasize value delivered, independent management, and client interaction above your pay grade. Usually for consulting you get promoted based on already having done most of the work of the position - the promotion is a formality. So if you want to come in high within the range, you have to emphasize that what you did actually exceeds the demands of the role that you are promoted in to. Unfortunately, to rise above EM or similar that's probably selling work so unless you a) sold some poo poo or b) are a lead generation superstar you will probably struggle to truly differentiate yourself. To come in at a high amount of money, your most recent EM (or several) will have to back the fact that you're God's Own Gift and actively advocate for you with the partner in charge of your project, and that person is going to have to go to bat for you. Mine and work your serious advocates. If you don't have any you're probably not going to be able to do better than average. If you're not getting promoted to EM or similar and are lower level, I would emphasize work that you have done that has taken on the role of EM. How you pitch it is basically the same but you want to stress on time, on budget, pain-free. If you have a formal mentor or a rabbi this is a good thing to discuss with them.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2017 17:42
|
|
|
Dwight Eisenhower posted:We've had some prior posters ask for advice, posting from the EU and I never feel as comfortable giving advice. I know that my experiences with negotiation are definitely culturally influenced by residing in the US, same with general structures around how employment works. If you could detail what you think was different from other people's reported experiences and what advice we generally give that seems counter to your experiences, that would be really handy. Also about what you think holds for the EU labor market! I used to work as a remote employee for a NY tech firm (1099 equivalent), I will now work as a salaried employee for a local firm in Amsterdam. At the same numbers you lose about 10% more of your gross income if you move into salary from self employment, with the caveat that you have actual holidays, a pension plan, subsidized healthcare and other perks like severance pay and unemployment benefits. Salary ended up coming up late naturally, with the first interview focusing on my technical competences. My CV wasn't even in the room at this point. The HR person called afterwards to ask how it was and after sharing it went well she asked whether compensation had been discussed, and cleverly multiparted the question by asking what I made now and what I'd like to make. I dropped the ball and answered both. Contrary to the advice of the thread I lied through my teeth about what I made, since I worked from home fulltime I added 90 minutes at my current hourly salary every workday to my monthly gross and gave an "approximately that number" answer. I figured if I'm being made to wear pants to work I might as well make it worth it financially. I was never asked to produce evidence of this, and they cannot legally compel me to do so either way. I'd done research beforehand and put my "what I wanted to make" range in the 66th percentile of the cited ranges (from places like glassdoor and a local tech board's "what do you make" thread). Negotiating was very low pressure and noncommittal, they sent me the offer friday so I could have the weekend to look it over, I countered on monday with a 6.8% increase in salary only. They countered with 2.57% and pointed out that they had several guaranteed-but-not-technically-salary perks that would get me close to my figure. My entire package consists of: Salary + 8% fixed bonus (pensionable salary) Company-wide bonuses scaling to up to 20% of gross salary (profit sharing, not pensionable) Pension (defined-contribution, 66.6% of which is paid by the company, the remaining third comes out of my salary pre-tax) Contribution size is dependent on age, in my age bracket (30-35) it's 9.1% of pensionable salary, going up as I age. €100/mo fixed supplemental to compensate for my on-call shifts (once every six weeks I get a phone and I'm required to be within an hour of my keyboard) The reason this isnt in "salary" is because I'm not on call during my first month at the company as they work me in. Some healthcare plan I didn't take a look at because I'm healthy as gently caress and it offers more coverage than I need or want to pay for. If anyone would like details I'll try my best to answer. €25/mo stipend to cover internet connection at home. 25 vacation days catered lunch company lease you can apply for after six months of tenure. travel allowance (if you live more than 10km away, I live 9.6km away  )I've heard it's common salaried US employees get (or are made to get) life insurance policies, which I haven't noticed anyone offer here. Extensive multi-round interviews or phone interviews have also not been a thing in my experience. My colleagues in New York have reported 4-5 round interviews, a majority of which are phone based. I had two and everything moved with speed. Something I was worried about that actually ended up reflecting well on me was the fact that I only had one company on my CV for my nine years of work experience. From what I had been able to pick up from my coworkers in the US, the advice was to switch early and often so that you maximize your salary growth. My supervisor was very impressed with my tenure and in the office walkabout after the second interview he went out of his way to tell me how I'd have every opportunity to develop myself (and my salary) and whatever they could do to make me happy because they'd prefer I continue with them and grow, even if I decide I want to move business units or something. I can't really make a direct comparison with a US job interview because I got that job first by sticking my head into a room after I heard someone swear at an employee loudly and proclaimed I could do a better job. Something that also seemed to get ooh's and aah's from my US coworkers was about 30% of the interview process being very explicitly devoted to what sort of person I was, where I wanted to go, and what I expected they would do for me. Showing your desire to learn scores major brownie points here. I can't think of any advice from this that was straight up not applicable, but if there are any specific questions anyone has, or wants to compare notes I'm happy to answer. I expect I'll probably learn a lot more after a few months at this new place and being able to compare work environments and how in-job salary raises are handled. (nonexistent at my previous job, periodic at this one, if I'm to believe the honeyed words of the HR Englishman.)
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2017 18:43
|
|
|
Congrats bud! As another European I can say that the negotiation advice is very usable and not just applicable to The US. The biggest difference I noticed was the in the US you guys usually talk about yearly compensation while over here negotiation is usually based on your monthly salary. Employment advice differs greatly though. In my country there's nothing like at will employment. It'd make one epic lawsuit if a company fired someone on the spot without a good reason (violence/theft/sexual intimidation). I might have to negotiate in the near future again, but I'm not sure if I actually want to switch jobs. It's difficult though, as I could get a 1000-1500 euro's a month raise if I jump ship.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2017 19:10
|
|
|
I accepted a job offer from a new company. 11% more than what I'm making now, and on top of that it's more in line with what I want to be doing, I wouldn't have to deal with nigh-constant on-call, and I'm going from a 40-mile commute to a 4-mile commute. I gave my present employer a chance to make a counter offer, and when they didn't really give me one I gave my notice. I have one week left in this job, and now my present employer believes they can't live without me. They haven't really floated any numbers. I feel that not only would an attractive counter-offer have to account for the extended commute or ultimately relocating, but now they would have to pay a premium for me to go back on an offer I've already signed. I could use some help framing my thinking. Stay my course and say goodbye or let them pay me to stay.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 22:53
|
|
|
They had their chance, leave.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 23:09
|
|
|
If they keep you now it's only to get a replacement to let you go out on their terms.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 23:11
|
|
|
Thirded - don't bother.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2017 23:12
|
|
|
IMJack posted:I accepted a job offer from a new company. 11% more than what I'm making now, and on top of that it's more in line with what I want to be doing, I wouldn't have to deal with nigh-constant on-call, and I'm going from a 40-mile commute to a 4-mile commute. I gave my present employer a chance to make a counter offer, and when they didn't really give me one I gave my notice.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 00:51
|
|
|
IMJack posted:I accepted a job offer from a new company. 11% more than what I'm making now, and on top of that it's more in line with what I want to be doing, I wouldn't have to deal with nigh-constant on-call, and I'm going from a 40-mile commute to a 4-mile commute. I gave my present employer a chance to make a counter offer, and when they didn't really give me one I gave my notice. They did not know how to value your work, and they still do not know how to value your work with that problem glaringly in their faces now that you are leaving. Would you accept a job from an employer who could not give you an actual figure for what you would be making with them? Is this situation any different, except that they seem to think that because you are currently employed there for the next few days, they can completely flub this important part of any employment relationship? I agree with the other posters. Leave. Your new offer is objectively better, and they are demonstrating incompetence at retaining you.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 14:29
|
|
|
Not to mention trimming 35 miles from your commute each way is like getting an hour+ of your life back every day.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 14:41
|
|
|
IMJack posted:
Why are you considering their "counter offer" ? If it's not big enough to make you say "yes" immediately, is there something else good about the place that you really like? From your post, there doesn't seem to be any reason to stay. Edit: add ironiquotes because they should be shaking a bag of cash in front of you, not a vague hint of something in the future Dongsturm fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Jul 14, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 21:07
|
|
|
I agree. I'm already doing more than simple courtesy by helping train my replacements and getting all the crap I support handed out to various new owners. This time next week I'm gone. This company has a culture of trying to do too much with not nearly enough resources. They have a serious hit-by-a-bus problem in the making. The value of my leaving like this is it's that kind of wake-up call to the higher-ups, and it doesn't involve a funeral.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2017 22:45
|
|
|
After 9 months at my firm, I am about to commence a job performance review at my firm. My goal is to obtain a 28% pay raise and a promotion on account of new job responsibilities, my excellent work, and the company's stellar financial year (they won't stop talking about it). I was wondering about two things: 1. How should I request such a salary negotiation session at all? I'd like my boss to come in with numbers prepared so he's not taken aback by my requests. Should I couch this as a contractual renegotiation? Salary negotiations? What's the best expression/euphemism for this sort of thing? 2. When in the session should my demands come in? I was planning to state them at the start before rattling off all that's good about me. But the OP's guideline, which is for dealing with a prospective employer, says that the demands should come at the very end.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2017 05:19
|
|
|
After hating my job for the last few months I am actually taking action towards getting a new job (starting with a phone call this afternoon, actually!). I haven't had to negotiate for a couple of years and flubbed it badly last time, anyone got any quick guides I can check out on my phone in the next few hours? I doubt we'll talk salary right away but I don't want to be surprised if they do.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2017 15:35
|
|
|
C-Euro posted:After hating my job for the last few months I am actually taking action towards getting a new job (starting with a phone call this afternoon, actually!). I haven't had to negotiate for a couple of years and flubbed it badly last time, anyone got any quick guides I can check out on my phone in the next few hours? I doubt we'll talk salary right away but I don't want to be surprised if they do. Don't talk about compensation specifics until an offer's on the table. If they try to press you for a salary number in the initial call, say something like "Right now, I'm more interested in learning if we're a good mutual fit. If we are, I can be flexible with my number." Under no circumstances tell them what you made at your previous job if they ask about salary history. I usually say "I'm sorry, that's confidential" - I've only had one person try to press me further, and I bluntly told him I wasn't going to tell him. Then we laughed it off.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2017 20:56
|
|
|
fantastic in plastic posted:Don't talk about compensation specifics until an offer's on the table. If they try to press you for a salary number in the initial call, say something like "Right now, I'm more interested in learning if we're a good mutual fit. If we are, I can be flexible with my number." Thanks. I told her I didn't want to talk numbers right now but she claimed that she needed a number for their application form. I stonewalled for a bit and then she said "why don't I just put you down for their maximum for the position?" (which would be a $15k raise) so thanks headhunter lady  And I just heard that they want to interview me so maybe they want me enough to bump that number up?
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2017 21:45
|
|
|
C-Euro posted:Thanks. I told her I didn't want to talk numbers right now but she claimed that she needed a number for their application form. I stonewalled for a bit and then she said "why don't I just put you down for their maximum for the position?" (which would be a $15k raise) so thanks headhunter lady Good job! "Well then, just put $1, and we can talk about it later" is another way to approach that situation, if you encounter it again in the future.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2017 21:56
|
|
|
So what's the best way to delay definitively accepting a position? Basically, I'm going to get offered a position at company A, but I'm waiting to hear back from company B who I'm pretty confident I'll be offered a position, but am still waiting to hear back. I've never been in this position so I've never had to deal with this before, do I basically just say, "I need some time to consider"?
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2017 22:02
|
|
|
Johnny Truant posted:So what's the best way to delay definitively accepting a position? Ask for time to consider it and drag out negotiations. At the same time tell the company that you have an offer and that will speed up their timeline.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2017 23:17
|
|
|
It's not all that crazy to say you're still in the interview process at another company. Maybe you are leaning towards taking it but feel you owe it to the other company to hear them out or something. I'm sure there are some hiring managers or whatever who will take umbrage at that, kinda gotta make those reads yourself.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2017 23:19
|
|
|
fantastic in plastic posted:Good job! "Well then, just put $1, and we can talk about it later" is another way to approach that situation, if you encounter it again in the future. I actually said "can we do this like The Price Is Right and just put down $1?" and she laughed at that a little, but she claimed that the system wouldn't accept it as valid.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2017 15:19
|
|
|
C-Euro posted:I actually said "can we do this like The Price Is Right and just put down $1?" and she laughed at that a little, but she claimed that the system wouldn't accept it as valid.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2017 16:00
|
|
|
IMJack posted:I accepted a job offer from a new company. 11% more than what I'm making now, and on top of that it's more in line with what I want to be doing, I wouldn't have to deal with nigh-constant on-call, and I'm going from a 40-mile commute to a 4-mile commute. I gave my present employer a chance to make a counter offer, and when they didn't really give me one I gave my notice. This thread has excellent advise, but is extremely risk adverse with regards to counter offers. My one anecdote is my ex was making 44K at a small company selling scientific equipment. The only direct competitor around found her on LinkedIn and ended up offering 68k for her to join them. She put in her 2 weeks and the current boss immediately offered her 76k to stay, which she accepted. That was about 4 years ago and she's still there today. Im of the opinion that if they take the time to fight for you, they actually want you to stay.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2017 17:24
|
|
|
tesilential posted:This thread has excellent advise, but is extremely risk adverse with regards to counter offers. They want you to stay because you leaving makes their life more difficult. This doesn't mean they want you to stay long term or won't hold it against you for being 'disloyal'. There are exceptions, but in general the generic position should be no as it's a bad sign that you had to go find another job to get a justified raise and is almost certainly going to come up again.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2017 17:45
|
|
|
I was making 62.5k a year into working with Company A. I received an offer in 2010 at Company B for 82k base plus 8k bonus. Company A countered with 78k base - bear in mind I liked the company and didn't like the new location I'd have to commute to for Company B. I agonized for a weekend and accepted. I'm currently making 125k base still with Company A 7 years later, and get bonuses that range anywhere from 3-12k a year. I feel like the advice against accepting counter-offers is bad advice because so few people actually take them in the first place (as there are usually more reasons for wanting to leave than just money), I wonder how based in real-life examples a lot of the conjecture about revenge and disloyalty is. It's certainly not something with as much evidence as "don't be the first to give a number." Not that there aren't situations where accepting a counter-offer is the wrong move, but I just feel like it's way too situation-specific for there to be hard and fast rule to it. Nail Rat fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Jul 19, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2017 17:54
|
|
|
tesilential posted:This thread has excellent advise, but is extremely risk adverse with regards to counter offers.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2017 17:55
|
|
|
Nail Rat posted:I was making 62.5k a year into working with Company A. I received an offer in 2010 at Company B for 82k base plus 8k bonus. It's hard to advocate well for these things with your own story. Not because it's one data point, but because it's really only half of one. Sure, you dodged the worst case scenario of "kept around only long enough to train a replacement" but you have no idea where life would have taken you if you took B. Maybe there's a company out there who'd offer you 175k, you at least ought to keep an open mind. My claim is that most people overvalue the comfort of their current arrangement and are inclined to stay even when they shouldn't, so that in general I'm going to push people towards change because I believe their default state is biased in the other direction. The point isn't that staying at your current place is always bad, it's that it's statistically lower expected value than leaving. I'd guess that that was probably true for you as well, but we'll never know.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2017 18:45
|
|
|
Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:My claim is that most people overvalue the comfort of their current arrangement and are inclined to stay even when they shouldn't, so that in general I'm going to push people towards change because I believe their default state is biased in the other direction. The point isn't that staying at your current place is always bad, it's that it's statistically lower expected value than leaving. I'd guess that that was probably true for you as well, but we'll never know. Eh, I have enough friends who have jumped companies a lot and have similar experience/skills that are at/below my salary level that I'm comfortable in saying I haven't left any money on the table. To climb higher I'd have to get even more into management than I am now and if anything I want out of it. That being said, I'm highly considering jumping if I don't get a big raise for my annual review next week - the downside being that I'm not sure I could get a big jump going elsewhere, the upside being I'm in a position to hold out for one. I'm just not that interested in the work here anymore, it was good up until about a year ago. Also I was more specifically talking about the oft-repeated mention of the company "holding it against you" if you accept their counter-offer. I have almost never heard of this actually happening but it's the first thing people in this thread say. Nail Rat fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Jul 19, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2017 18:50
|
|
|
I don't subscribe to the strident "Never accept counterofffers" boat, but I think there's a high bar to hurdle there. You should be getting a counteroffer that is objectively better than what you are leaving for. It should be robustly defined and specific before you agree to it. And you should evaluate the question "Am I being retained, or is my employer just trying to get control of the pace of my exit?" It's not always the case that you're going to get fired after accepting a counter offer, the anecdotes in this thread are proof enough of that. And sometimes it can work out very well indeed! However, sometimes the counter offer is nebulous and incompetent, e.g. with IMJacks employer. In this case there's no sincere effort made at retention. So I think getting up and leaving is absolutely the right move.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2017 18:53
|
|
|
Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:It's hard to advocate well for these things with your own story. Not because it's one data point, but because it's really only half of one. Sure, you dodged the worst case scenario of "kept around only long enough to train a replacement" but you have no idea where life would have taken you if you took B. Maybe there's a company out there who'd offer you 175k, you at least ought to keep an open mind.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2017 19:00
|
|
|
Dwight Eisenhower posted:I don't subscribe to the strident "Never accept counterofffers" boat, but I think there's a high bar to hurdle there. You should be getting a counteroffer that is objectively better than what you are leaving for. It should be robustly defined and specific before you agree to it. And you should evaluate the question "Am I being retained, or is my employer just trying to get control of the pace of my exit?" I agree. I also think that the "do never accept counteroffer" mantra is overly extreme, but I understand where it comes from. Especially when talking about advice to negotiating newbies or people who are early on in their career / low man on the totem pole. It's also good to push people who would otherwise stay in the comfort of the known environment, even if it's lovely and they need to move. I still think counter-offers should be viewed with skepticism, and whether it's a good idea to take one or not really comes down to a whole lot of very situation and person specific details that can't be explained or understood via an online forum very well. It's really up to the person to read the situation, environment, and trajectory within the company. So really it comes down to "it depends".
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2017 19:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 06:28 |
|
|
I think Dwight is right on about the difference between a legitimate counter-offer and "golly gee we wish you'd stay!!"
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2017 23:53
|
|