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The one thing that made Poker watchable to regular people was the glass table with the under-the-table cameras to show you what hands were in play. The players didn't know, the audience did and that added drama and tension to a game. FPS games just lack that audience focus that makes other games compelling to watch. A layperson can watch something like a League of Legends match and parse out the big plays and the use of powers thanks to the angle it's played at and the focus by the developers on readability of a match. Even when they can't, the casters have the tools available to slow down and give a play by play which is again, parsable thanks to the angle the game is viewed at. Hell, there are normal people that don't even play the game, but will happily tune into a good Worlds or LCS match because it's watchable and dramatic. I've not seen an FPS yet that has any of that. They're usually just people watching the one player they like and seeing how he operates independently of the team, because you can't see what they're up to. Even World of Warships or Tanks has better spectating experience than almost any FPS you care to name. Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Jul 14, 2017 |
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Jul 14, 2017 03:58
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Pre-show for the Overwatch World Cup is going to go live in just over an hour https://www.twitch.tv/playoverwatch
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Jul 14, 2017 04:57
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I'll take esports serious when they are on ESPN 8 'The Ocho'.
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Jul 14, 2017 05:09
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Kokoro Wish posted:I've not seen an FPS yet that has any of that. They're usually just people watching the one player they like and seeing how he operates independently of the team, because you can't see what they're up to. Even World of Warships or Tanks has better spectating experience than almost any FPS you care to name. It's weird, I really enjoy watching Dota 2 and CS:GO esports, but I can't really explain why I enjoying watching the latter, and I never even played CS:GO
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Jul 14, 2017 06:30
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FAUXTON posted:CSGO hits some of the same notes as something like poker, where there's a lot of tension that builds as more people get eliminated. Overwatch can kind of mimic this feel with 6v6 Lockout, which might be a really good competitive mode.
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Jul 14, 2017 06:40
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I'd be surprised if lockout gets big as a part of pro overwatch just because of how differently it plays, but it would go a ways towards solving the problem of some heroes never being played because they're bad
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Jul 14, 2017 06:53
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FaustianQ posted:Overwatch can kind of mimic this feel with 6v6 Lockout, which might be a really good competitive mode.  though it lacks the plant/defuse mechanism, which is a pretty significant part of what makes the CS endgame such a rollercoaster sometimes. I wish there was a way to put something like that into OW, but the vertical dimension inherent to its gameplay kind of makes it impossible to keep it as an independent objective. You'd just play for mobility and the permanent meta would be to pack the team with vertically mobile heroes.
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Jul 14, 2017 07:11
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6v6 Lockout has a different kind of tension though with the cap towards the end, adjusting time to capture can also adjust the tension. If it was competitive, I'd also include two healthpacks, not only to make certain characters more useful but to encourage more ways to approach a round, plus it gives a better chance for 2v1 or 3v1 situations to actually be tense, rather than determinant.Manatee Cannon posted:I'd be surprised if lockout gets big as a part of pro overwatch just because of how differently it plays, but it would go a ways towards solving the problem of some heroes never being played because they're bad In this context thought bad isn't a really large part of the cast, just suboptimal.
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Jul 14, 2017 07:57
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teagone posted:I remember when an X-Games medalist in skiing said pro gamers don't deserve recognition for their achievements because they sit on a couch and the internet dumpstered her. I don't disagree with her at all. She said they shouldn't get an X-games medal, X-games are specifically for extreme sports (at least back when I watched it). There is zero risk of you dying while gaming unless you do something that'd kill you anyway like not eating. X-games competitors can die/be paralysed/lots of horrid poo poo if they gently caress up.
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Jul 14, 2017 10:45
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Was there a specific reason why she attacked a scene that has nothing to do with her own scene? Seems idiotic in all possible ways.
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Jul 14, 2017 11:09
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Competitively played elimination games would consist of both teams camping until the point comes online.
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Jul 14, 2017 12:47
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Bolivar posted:Was there a specific reason why she attacked a scene that has nothing to do with her own scene? Seems idiotic in all possible ways. There was an esports tournament that was played as a part of X-games, and streamed on live TV. She took askance about why esports were part of the tournament, and why they were afforded medals.
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Jul 14, 2017 17:50
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the internet is full of hopeless layabouts that want to feel important too so it makes sense she'd be attacked on their home turf
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Jul 14, 2017 17:58
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AceClown posted:On something like CS:GO on a simple level if your aim is good and you know the maps you can be productive, on OW you can be the best nailed on solder ever seen but if no one actually gets on the point then you'll never win. Even a bunch of kids kicking a soccer ball around work somewhat as a team, they can emulate the pros by passing the ball and talking to each other, this just doesn't happen for the majority of OW players. Kassoon posted:A big appeal for csgo is you can have crazy carry comeback plays where one person wipes a team which is only really possible with high damage and fast kills, which is the exact opposite direction that blizzard is going in. It's why people like watching league of legends but not heroes of the storm, in the former you get exciting dives and quick flashy kills, in the latter you get two teams trading blows for a bit until one gives up and walks away. As caboose said having a period of downtime for analysis and explanation built into the game is also necessary, which again doesn't happen when you have the never-ending stalemate. Yeah this is why I drifted back to TF2. I played OW for a couple weeks at launch and I'm looking at coming back (haven't played with Sombra, Orisa, or Doomfist in the mix) but this is what holds me back. TF2 has matchups where one side or the other is at a big disadvantage but it's extremely common for a wily player to turn the tables and outplay their opponent. OW plays very "rock-paper-scissors" by comparison, and the slower game pace strongly emphasize whole-team play over 1v1 or 2v2 skirmishes. The way the game mechanics work it's basically impossible to carry, which is good in some senses (you're not going to get curbstomped by one twinking pro player) and bad in other senses (if your team is bad, there's little chance of you pulling off a stunning play and breaking your team out of spawn or through a choke). The fact that 1v1/2v2 outcomes are strongly determined by cooldown management is not a particularly rewarding mechanic for players, and at a game-design level it just turns into a lot of "hide behind the shield to avoid feeding ult needlessly" which leads to boring stalemates at chokes. It's basically actively avoiding playing the game because any unnecessary confrontation puts you "out of place" and vastly increases the risk to your team. This is the worst part about the TF2 "comp scene" which is obsessed with 6s and ultraduo (which is a shame because the Highlander format is much better). Having timing affect game flow is one thing, having the entire game flow revolve around timing to the extent that attempted skill plays don't matter at best and are usually actively detrimental is bad game design. OW = TF2 minus the big plays Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Jul 14, 2017 |
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Jul 14, 2017 18:52
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Competitively played elimination games would consist of both teams camping until the point comes online. make it like pubg and slowly irridate the outer edges of the map to force people into the centre
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Jul 14, 2017 19:07
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Paul MaudDib posted:Yeah this is why I drifted back to TF2. I played OW for a couple weeks at launch and I'm looking at coming back (haven't played with Sombra, Orisa, or Doomfist in the mix) but this is what holds me back. It is absolutely, entirely untrue to suggest that "if your aim is good and you know the maps" you can't be productive in Overwatch like that dude is saying though, it's basically just a rehash of the Elo hell argument. Like having good aim and knowing the maps is maybe 90% of what constitutes getting gud in Overwatch, if you actually have both of those at a high level then you've got pretty much everything you need to climb. Also if your complaint about Overwatch is that there's too much hiding behind shields at chokepoints then I've got some good news for you about the current state of the game.
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Jul 14, 2017 19:11
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checksin posted:make it like pubg and slowly irridate the outer edges of the map to force people into the centre I can't wait until a flood of games devs start churning out titles "like PUBG but with..." and see them crash and burn. PUBG is great because there is no "but with".
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Jul 14, 2017 19:14
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wit posted:I can't wait until a flood of games devs start churning out titles "like PUBG but with..." and see them crash and burn. PUBG is great because there is no "but with". PUBG is actually the latest of a flood of ARMA BR mod clones though. Also I tried watching some OW World Cup last night and it was just not pleasant to watch. I mean I fully understand this game. I play it, I watch people play it, but the format they have is absolutely terrible. The constant switching between players, and pure chaos of free camera just makes it seem like a clusterfuck. To be fair though, the person controlling the cameras might be partly to blame, because I have seen less chaotic, smaller tourney spectator streams before. But it might also be the difference in skill level that adds to the difference in pace.
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Jul 14, 2017 19:30
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ToastyPotato posted:PUBG is actually the latest of a flood of ARMA BR mod clones though. Just speccing a match flicking through various players is totally acceptable when it's just you, but makes for an annoying and incoherent cast. If there is a "demo system" it would probably behoove any would-be casters to try "casting" a few matches and then look at the video they produced. Solo-casting competitive team FPS games is absolutely a skill that takes a whole bunch of time and practice to be good at. You also have to intimately know the game so you can know where the action is going to be and who to spec while it happens. You also really need to have some type of overlay which shows everyone's characters/health (and in OW the cooldown and ult bars are probably also relevant) If you were going to do professional e-sports casting with maximum production values you would probably want to do it like professional sports or something, have multiple people controlling various POVs and a "director" calling cuts between the "cameras". Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Jul 14, 2017 |
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Jul 14, 2017 19:42
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A lot of people have said that what they enjoy seeing in a game or what they enjoy doing is: lifting a the team up with a great play and being a hero and carrying a the team on their shoulders. I think the main reason overwatch doesn't feel like it has this is because it's MMR matching is pretty accurate and you are probably playing with/against people of similar skill (even though your gut tells you that these jerkasses all suck and are holding you back). It is pretty unsatisfying having a 51% win rate all the time and the only difference you can observe is a little number and incremental changes in the quality of people you play with. All that said, I think the game is worlds better without flickshot masters crapping on everyone.
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Jul 14, 2017 20:04
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Why would you play PvP games if you don't want to measure yourself against other people and let skill shine through? Like what kind of hosed up crab bucket mentality is that? People gotta stop evaluating these mechanics from the position of "I will never be the one who's good or gets to do the cool thing." Anyways matchmaking and carry potential aren't really the same thing at all. Matchmaking doesn't stop you from being "on" or not from one moment to the next, matchmaking doesn't mean you won't be the one who gets a good read on your opponent or a match on your best map or whatever. One of the Overwatch devs actually talked about this when they were debunking some of the misconceptions about matchmaking, although their focus was more on why close-rated games can still be total blowouts. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Jul 14, 2017 |
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Jul 14, 2017 20:15
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A lot of the appeal of PvP is variance. If a coop game allowed for as much variance and unpredictability in gameplay as PvP it would probably be very popular.
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Jul 14, 2017 20:32
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playing against a human opponent will always be more interesting than playing against an AI. humans make mistakes and are unpredictable while an AI decides if it should be hitting you or missing you based on the difficulty settings so yeah variance
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Jul 14, 2017 20:40
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I don't think Overwatch has very extreme matchups. The vast majority are decided by player skill, and in a lot of cases the hero with the disadvantageous matchup has a mobility advantage so they can try to avoid that fight and focus on other ones (eg Reaper vs Winston). It's also often a lot more complicated than who wins the 1v1 - for example D-Va will easily kill Winston in a straight fight, but Winston is very good at killing people through matrix. Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Jul 14, 2017 |
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Jul 14, 2017 20:45
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ToastyPotato posted:Also I tried watching some OW World Cup last night and it was just not pleasant to watch. I mean I fully understand this game. I play it, I watch people play it, but the format they have is absolutely terrible. The constant switching between players, and pure chaos of free camera just makes it seem like a clusterfuck. To be fair though, the person controlling the cameras might be partly to blame, because I have seen less chaotic, smaller tourney spectator streams before. But it might also be the difference in skill level that adds to the difference in pace. Yeah, I think the World Cup production is handled locally in whatever city it's being hosted in. A lot of the camera work last night/this morning was pretty sloppy. Hope it improves, or whoever is handling the in-game camera at the other group stage tournaments is better than Shanghai. The actual Shanghai venue looks really nice though. The tournament that had the best camera work in OW by far was the TESPA Collegiate Series; good mix of third person action, along with cool sweeping/panning shots, with really good focus on ultimate and team fight action. Blizzard needs to hire that crew for OWL. teagone fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Jul 14, 2017 |
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Jul 14, 2017 22:13
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: What is happening here? https://youtu.be/tl9FTpzJgnU?t=1m20s Edit: Haha, nevermind, I was looking at the bottom team.
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Jul 14, 2017 23:02
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Why would you play PvP games if you don't want to measure yourself against other people and let skill shine through? Like what kind of hosed up crab bucket mentality is that? People gotta stop evaluating these mechanics from the position of "I will never be the one who's good or gets to do the cool thing." I like everything you said. I was just trying to speak to the people that want overwatch to be CS or those that ragequit because they lose a couple of games and can't control the outcome by themselves: Chill out and play the team game and be a cartoon gorillla.
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Jul 15, 2017 00:17
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FAUXTON posted:CSGO hits some of the same notes as something like poker, where there's a lot of tension that builds as more people get eliminated. I don't think OW is like football. Maybe hockey, but football has consistent pauses in action where teams are regrouping and making tactical decisions before a quick and decisive skirmish. Overwatch, like hockey, basketball, or soccer is a game that generally is just going. There's no time to take a huddle, there are some quieter moments, but it's more like a team slow playing the ball down the court rather than a huddle. Poker is a different thing. Honestly, as facile as the argument seems I would call Hearthstone the closest to poker, where the players are operating with an imperfect knowledge of the situation and playing strategies in a game with a large random element. But really all of these metaphors are somehow important. The reality is that Overwatch is a very different beast than other FPS esports. It's incredibly fun to play, but its still really quite hard to watch, and dive really really doesn't help that. I don't want Overwatch to be CS. But I do want Blizzard to try and learn lessons from successful esports. The Blue Caboose fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Jul 15, 2017 |
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Jul 15, 2017 00:55
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Overwatch has plenty of pauses - between fights, between rounds, between matches. I think it's a matter of utilizing those pauses better. A proper demo feature and perhaps even an automated system to help the spectator find "highlights" from the last fight could help a lot there.
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Jul 15, 2017 01:01
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I had to work overnight so I saw the world cup thing for a little while and uh...man. Overwatch looks really loving stupid in free-cam. I'd start feeling heavy buyers remorse if I was one of those marks that slapped Blizzard 20 mil if the first game footage I saw was a goddamn free-cam shot of two Winston's ADAD'ing at each other.
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Jul 15, 2017 01:26
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Overwatch has plenty of pauses - between fights, between rounds, between matches. I think it's a matter of utilizing those pauses better. A proper demo feature and perhaps even an automated system to help the spectator find "highlights" from the last fight could help a lot there. The other big secret is that live production is loving hard. Think about how many people work together to make a live sports event come together-- how many cameras. I can't imagine even the biggest tournaments have that kind of production budget. The ticket sales revenue alone from a single regular season NFL game is more than the largest prize pool from any esports tournament ever except for the most recent 3 DoTA Internationals.
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Jul 15, 2017 02:33
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Overwatch has plenty of pauses - between fights, between rounds, between matches. I think it's a matter of utilizing those pauses better. A proper demo feature and perhaps even an automated system to help the spectator find "highlights" from the last fight could help a lot there. the pauses don't last long enough to do much with. sometimes it's not even long enough to get a replay of a cool play from the last fight before another one starts
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Jul 15, 2017 03:04
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Manatee Cannon posted:the pauses don't last long enough to do much with. sometimes it's not even long enough to get a replay of a cool play from the last fight before another one starts Yeah about the only thing that would allow for instant replay commentary would be a team kill or a 5-kill where the sixth just flees to join the others after respawn. Lol at someone like Marino or Aikman rattling off a description of a team kill setup. EMP FROM THE FLANK BY SOMBRA, SETS UP THE EARTHSHATTER, OOOOOHHHHH AND THE DVA BOMB WITH THE HEARTBREAK EMOTE OH MY GAAAAAAAAWD
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Jul 15, 2017 03:17
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I also feel like the commentators are pretty consistently about 5 seconds behind the action because there's just so much of it.
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Jul 15, 2017 07:50
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FAUXTON posted:Lol at someone like Marino or Aikman rattling off a description of a team kill setup. EMP FROM THE FLANK BY SOMBRA, SETS UP THE EARTHSHATTER, OOOOOHHHHH AND THE DVA BOMB WITH THE HEARTBREAK EMOTE OH MY GAAAAAAAAWD Honestly I kind of wish the people who cast Overwatch esports, or any esports for this matter, actually did it this way because it would instantly become 1000% more entertaining. I'm not even kidding, they should just lean into it and go nuts.
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Jul 15, 2017 07:54
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FAUXTON posted:Yeah about the only thing that would allow for instant replay commentary would be a team kill or a 5-kill where the sixth just flees to join the others after respawn. Kai Tave posted:Honestly I kind of wish the people who cast Overwatch esports, or any esports for this matter, actually did it this way because it would instantly become 1000% more entertaining. I'm not even kidding, they should just lean into it and go nuts. Blizzard should hire this guy to commentate OWL matches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_-ItwAA60U
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Jul 15, 2017 08:41
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Kai Tave posted:Honestly I kind of wish the people who cast Overwatch esports, or any esports for this matter, actually did it this way because it would instantly become 1000% more entertaining. I'm not even kidding, they should just lean into it and go nuts. The Korean casters seem to be doing just that.
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Jul 15, 2017 09:23
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Bolivar posted:The Korean casters seem to be doing just that. Subtitled Korean casts are more entertaining than any other language always
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Jul 15, 2017 13:51
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 I know this is probably written by an actual child, but I want to believe that somewhere, an adult is so convinced that pushing his mouse forward on his desk to look up is so difficult, its banned in international matches. The scene is rigged, its all kayfabe and heels, pharah's backyard rasslin would kill them. https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20757667773?page=2
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Jul 15, 2017 14:08
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They're both wrong tbh, Pharah Mercy is played a fair amount in tournaments and is basically mandatory on some maps.
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Jul 15, 2017 14:32
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