EVOLUTION 2017 - We are only watching this for Puyo Puyo Tetris, really

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > EVOLUTION 2017 - We are only watching this for Puyo Puyo Tetris, really

«‹›92 »

Best Commentator
	Hellpockets
	James "Old Man" Chen
	Ultra "I See You Colluding" David
	Infiltration
	UltraChen
	Yipes
	Chris Hu
	Zhi (Late Night mode)
	Zhi (Corporate Sponsored mode)
	Aris
	Ryan Hunter
	Seth "My LoL Money" Killian
	Spooky
	When's Catherine?

[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

View Results

anime was right: Jun 27, 2008; death is certain
keep yr cool

C. Everett Koop posted:

Serious post time:

I was talking to a co-worker about this other day, and he understood a fighting game tournament having stuff like Street Fighter and Tekken. But he was surprised that Melee would be at such an event, which basically led to me describing how it runs, and coming to the realization that Competitive Melee is far different than the Melee the vast majority of us played, and that's probably not a good thing.

What I mean is that the Street Fighter I play isn't the Street Fighter that top players play, and the basketball I play isn't the basketball that LeBron plays, but we're generally in the same realm, or at least the same rulebook. Competitive Melee has practically nothing in common with how the game was intended to be played. It's like they took a peanut M&M, hollowed it out until all that was left was that little nub at the end of the peanut, and left it the candy shell. It may say Melee but it's not; the community has created something that's interesting to watch at high levels but it has nearly nothing in common with how the game was designed to be played and how most of us played Melee, which means there's a disconnect.

Melee also suffers from a lack of parity at it's highest levels. There's a thread about parity in sports over in SAS right now and what I've been meaning to ignore my job and write another effort post about is that we want the illusion of parity in sports, but not necessarily parity itself. In a major event we want the top players/teams to be there at the end, to lend credibility that what we're witnessing is a big deal, but we want there to be an underdog for fresh blood/rooting interest. Melee has it's four/five gods and they win everything, and perhaps most importantly, appear to be winning everything for the foreseeable future. Games/sports get boring if the same team wins over and over again (unless someone manages to push said champ past their limits but I digress). Ratings for the NBA Playoffs were down this year until the Finals because everyone knew it was the Cavs and Warriors at the end and they were never threatened; had either team been taken to a sixth/seventh game there would have been more intrigue and higher ratings; a die-hard Melee fan or someone with a rooting interest in the four gods will watch regardless but a casual fan could be turned off by the same names competing for the title.

The other major thing Melee has working against it is its community. Even by FGC standards they're more obnoxious/intolerable re: autistic than the rest, which ends up being a turnoff, or how two people who are very similar either get along like gangbusters or can't stand each other. Because Melee is so different than other fighting games there's very little player crossover at high levels which means there's limited opportunities for understanding. The Melee community is also very insular, getting no support from said FGC and no support from Nintendo, which Hungrybox whined about earlier this year. The issue with getting no support from Nintendo is that Nintendo has no reason to support a game that's on hardware from four console generations ago and has been morphed into something completely different than intended; really to support competitive Melee would be to tell Sakurai that he made his game wrong. It's why it was such a shock and a big deal that Melee won the EVO poll a few years ago and made an effort to integrate itself back in with the greater FGC,; they had been so insular and previous efforts at intertwining the two went so poorly that people were stunned that they would want to come back in. As we've seen in the years since Smash has stuck around and been mixed back in but it's at the level of "drunk uncle at Thanksgiving" where you don't want to talk about anything because it's just going to lead to arguments and peoples getting mad.

Melee's future is going to be one of a gradual decline as the already old hardware becomes harder and harder to find. Big tournaments have enough issues finding CRTs and Gamecubes aren't being made anymore, and even though Nintendo started making Gamecube controllers again for the purpose of playing Smash if you have to find one that's malfunctioning in order to play at the highest levels, that doesn't bode well for your future. The players will get older and their skills will decline as nature intended and it's a question if there'll be younger blood ready and willing to take over.

The only things that could shake up Melee would be: going to fewer stocks/shorter time which naturally increases variance, but the community's going to be very hesitant to change anything that's so ingrained and I don't think they want that variance anyway, or Nintendo releasing the game on Switch which makes it accessible to a whole new audience. Considering how apprehensive Melee was towards Brawl/4 I could see even a re-release being rejected over flaws real or perceived, meaning CRT/Gamecube Melee is the only True Melee and anything else is an impostor. New blood coming in to shake up the pecking order might also do it but I'm not holding my breath there.

Melee isn't perfect or flawless like I shitpost about and it's also not a cancer as the thread likes to bitch about it, it's different and with flaws and no real motivation to fix said flaws. In the end, Melee will just be content to do its own thing and nothing of value will be gained or lost.

i luv guilty gear

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:13

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 3, 2024 16:53

Dias: Feb 20, 2011; by sebmojo

melee isn't cancer because you can make cancer go into remission

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:13

Ignis: Mar 31, 2011; I take it you don't want my autograph, then.

Dias posted:

is there hype spanish commentary cause otherwise i'mma watch this pretty asian girl stream punk beating up fools and interviewing people

The commentator's switching from english to spanish seldomly - they've got japanese people watching who don't know spanish, so they said they also want to appeal to them by speaking english.

Lots of colorful spanish in between too

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:15

C. Everett Koop: Aug 18, 2008

Dias posted:

melee isn't cancer because you can make cancer go into remission

denis leary put out a whole thing called "no cure for cancer" are you saying mr. leary is wrong :colbert:

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:19

deadpan: Feb 2, 2004

I finally got around to watching the KOF final from last night in the first post and just wanted to say that ending was loving clutch.

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:21

mango sentinel: Jan 5, 2001; by sebmojo

Dias posted:

I mean, Marvel 2 lasted quite a while.

Melee is only a year younger than MvC2.

MvC2 left Evo 7 years ago.

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:22

Dias: Feb 20, 2011; by sebmojo

Ignis posted:

The commentator's switching from english to spanish seldomly - they've got japanese people watching who don't know spanish, so they said they also want to appeal to them by speaking english.

Lots of colorful spanish in between too

Gracias. I wish their mic was better because my Spanish is surprisingly kinda poo poo but it's more legit this way.

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:23

Dias: Feb 20, 2011; by sebmojo

La revancha!

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:23

AlphaKeny1: Feb 17, 2006

the year is 2017 let me break out my crt and game cube to play my dead gay game

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:24

Ignis: Mar 31, 2011; I take it you don't want my autograph, then.

There's gonna be an ET VS Xiaohai rematch :siren:

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:24

Tae: Oct 24, 2010; Hello? Can you hear me? ...Perhaps if I shout? AAAAAAAAAH!

mango sentinel posted:

Melee is only a year younger than MvC2.

MvC2 left Evo 7 years ago.

If Marvel was big enough to support 4k people across both games, it would've stayed.

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:24

Dias: Feb 20, 2011; by sebmojo

AlphaKeny1 posted:

the year is 2017 let me break out my crt and game cube to play my dead gay game

are you the average fighting game thread poster

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:25

Dias: Feb 20, 2011; by sebmojo

also if brawl was smash 4 i think people would be playing that now instead of melee

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:26

Real hurthling!: Sep 11, 2001

Is smash 4 designed more around no items 1v1 or recognize competitive play at all?

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:27

Dias: Feb 20, 2011; by sebmojo

every time nosomi gets a hit the japanese go :hai:

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:27

Dias: Feb 20, 2011; by sebmojo

Real hurthling! posted:

Is smash 4 designed more around no items 1v1 or recognize competitive play at all?

It has a competitive online mode and while it's still designed as a party game Nintendo actually bothered doing balancing based on no items 1v1 and poo poo. It's just that it's not Melee and unlike Capcom games there's cash in the old-rear end game still.

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:30

Ignis: Mar 31, 2011; I take it you don't want my autograph, then.

gently caress he panicked hard

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:30

iPodschun: Dec 29, 2004; Sherlock House

Marvel https://www.twitch.tv/kevin_ha

Abegen vs a dude right now

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:30

Tae: Oct 24, 2010; Hello? Can you hear me? ...Perhaps if I shout? AAAAAAAAAH!

Smash 4 had the second highest entrants in the tournament iirc and also has lower player crossover than any other two games in Evo, because the skillsets don't transfer at all between games.

Since Tekken is before Smash and SFV, this is my future "confused" post when people that don't like either still post about it when Tekken's done.

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:32

Ventana: Mar 28, 2010; *Yosh intensifies*

C. Everett Koop posted:

The only things that could shake up Melee would be: going to fewer stocks/shorter time which naturally increases variance

I can't tell if you're talking about playerbase or viewerbase with this, but in either case this solution doesn't feel right. Like, I'd agree with this if we were talking about what *we* would like to see as Melee viewers, but afaik Melee viewership in general isn't like rapidly declining. And I don't think the playerbase is at all related to this either. If you were going to get into Melee or not, I don't actually think Stock/Timer issues are the barriers that would be in the way (like, say, Technology issues or general High Skill gap would be).

C. Everett Koop posted:

Considering how apprehensive Melee was towards Brawl/4 I could see even a re-release being rejected over flaws real or perceived, meaning CRT/Gamecube Melee is the only True Melee and anything else is an impostor. New blood coming in to shake up the pecking order might also do it but I'm not holding my breath there.

We can already see this in the FGC too, with something like the MVC2 360/PS3 port being weird so some mvc2 players didn't want to play on it.

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:32

Real hurthling!: Sep 11, 2001

Dias posted:

It has a competitive online mode and while it's still designed as a party game Nintendo actually bothered doing balancing based on no items 1v1 and poo poo. It's just that it's not Melee and unlike Capcom games there's cash in the old-rear end game still.

Thats cool. Good on nintendo

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:33

Real hurthling!: Sep 11, 2001

Ventana posted:

I can't tell if you're talking about playerbase or viewerbase with this, but in either case this solution doesn't feel right. Like, I'd agree with this if we were talking about what *we* would like to see as Melee viewers, but afaik Melee viewership in general isn't like rapidly declining. And I don't think the playerbase is at all related to this either. If you were going to get into Melee or not, I don't actually think Stock/Timer issues are the barriers that would be in the way (like, say, Technology issues or general High Skill gap would be).

We can already see this in the FGC too, with something like the MVC2 360/PS3 port being weird so some mvc2 players didn't want to play on it.

Chris g nearly had a stroke when he heard marvel3 is on ps4 with different input delay

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:34

FZeroRacer: Apr 8, 2009

Dias posted:

also if brawl was smash 4 i think people would be playing that now instead of melee

if brawl was Smash 4 no one would be playing it because Brawl Is Bad

smash 4 is good though.

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:36

Jiro: Jan 13, 2004

Yeah where's all the money match streams and stuff? Wanna see some drunk people ackin a fool.

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:37

Dias: Feb 20, 2011; by sebmojo

FZeroRacer posted:

if brawl was Smash 4 no one would be playing it because Brawl Is Bad

smash 4 is good though.

no you dumb motherfucker i'm saying that if the brawl we got was actually like smash 4, even though the games are different people would've migrated most probably

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:40

mango sentinel: Jan 5, 2001; by sebmojo

Tae posted:

If Marvel was big enough to support 4k people across both games, it would've stayed.

I don't think anyone was trying to make argument MvC2 should be around just cause melee is. I was just making the point Melee's staying power is incredibly different from Marvel's was. I don't think the fact the same six people win everything is discouraging melee fans. Marvel fans are fighting game fans, marvel is just their favorite flavor of fighting game. Melee fans are exclusively Melee fans where they just want the exact same game forever.

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:41

C. Everett Koop: Aug 18, 2008

Ventana posted:

I can't tell if you're talking about playerbase or viewerbase with this, but in either case this solution doesn't feel right. Like, I'd agree with this if we were talking about what *we* would like to see as Melee viewers, but afaik Melee viewership in general isn't like rapidly declining. And I don't think the playerbase is at all related to this either. If you were going to get into Melee or not, I don't actually think Stock/Timer issues are the barriers that would be in the way (like, say, Technology issues or general High Skill gap would be).

In terms of playerbase or viewerbase I'm talking about both kinda. It may be that Melee has more in common with European soccer than anything else where the top teams are expected to win every year and it's unacceptable when they don't and someone like a Leicester winning isn't seen as a breath of fresh air but a glitch in the system. As for viewership it may be not be rapidly declining but I don't think it's growing; the die-hards are always going to watch but unless some huge catalyst happens, like when Melee came back to EVO, I don't see how viewership grows, meaning it'll gradually decline vs. a rapid one.

If you were hellbent on getting new blood into the scene the reduced stocks/time for variance would be the one change within the communities control, but as we've noted they like having the same names on top and aren't clamoring for someone new. If anything I'm sure they'd like to go even longer and eliminate even more variance but that leads to other issues.

quote:

We can already see this in the FGC too, with something like the MVC2 360/PS3 port being weird so some mvc2 players didn't want to play on it.

And the HD Remix/Switch Street Fighter were Super Turbo except not really so they've been cast aside like redheaded stepchildren. A Switch Melee re-release would have to be untouched and even then if there was any additional lag or change in control it would be rejected out of hand. They've been playing their way for over a decade now, they're not going to change if they aren't forced to.

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:45

Lessail: Apr 1, 2011; tell me how vgk aren't playing like shit again

p.s. help my grapes are so sour!

pako why

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:45

FZeroRacer: Apr 8, 2009

Dias posted:

no you dumb motherfucker i'm saying that if the brawl we got was actually like smash 4, even though the games are different people would've migrated most probably

so then people would've migrated onto brawl (A lovely Game) because they moved onto smash 3 prior.

i will never understand why people obsess so hard on having people migrate to the newer games and having to invent scenarios where people move onto the next game in the series.

if you build it (and it is good) they will come.

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:50

Tae: Oct 24, 2010; Hello? Can you hear me? ...Perhaps if I shout? AAAAAAAAAH!

I don't know why people are obsessed that players have to move on to the new game. If MvC2 and MvC Infinite had the same high popularity and money support, would you still yell at MvC2 players to move on to MvC Infinite? Why can't they just keep playing mvc2, a game they like?

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:53

HoneyBoy: Oct 12, 2012; get murked son

I don't understand the smash posts since this is a thread for Evo the fighting game tournament??

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:54

NecroMonster: Jan 4, 2009

smash4 really isn't as good a game as melee. but it's far from being as bad a game as brawl.

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:56

RBX: Jan 2, 2011

One is a million years old and pretty figured out and the other isn't? How is that hard to understand. I played Pokemon Red however many years ago. It was a great game but I never want to see or play it again.

# ? Jul 16, 2017 07:57

FZeroRacer: Apr 8, 2009

RBX posted:

One is a million years old and pretty figured out and the other isn't? How is that hard to understand. I played Pokemon Red however many years ago. It was a great game but I never want to see or play it again.

lol if you don't enjoy replaying truly classic and timeless games.

every now and then I replay Symphony of the Night because it just feels good to play. sometimes a game is just fun to play no matter how many times you've played it.

# ? Jul 16, 2017 08:00

whalestory: Feb 9, 2004; hey ya'll!; Pillbug

I likey smash melee

# ? Jul 16, 2017 08:02

NecroMonster: Jan 4, 2009

playing melee and then trying to play smash4 is like going from mvc3 to street fighter 4, at least as far as movement is concerned.

# ? Jul 16, 2017 08:03

RBX: Jan 2, 2011

FZeroRacer posted:

lol if you don't enjoy replaying truly classic and timeless games.

every now and then I replay Symphony of the Night because it just feels good to play. sometimes a game is just fun to play no matter how many times you've played it.

We're talking watching not actually playing

# ? Jul 16, 2017 08:05

Dias: Feb 20, 2011; by sebmojo

FZeroRacer posted:

so then people would've migrated onto brawl (A lovely Game) because they moved onto smash 3 prior.

i will never understand why people obsess so hard on having people migrate to the newer games and having to invent scenarios where people move onto the next game in the series.

if you build it (and it is good) they will come.

What I'm trying to say, hoping against hope you can actually parse it, is that the reason why Melee has lasted this long is that Nintendo - the only dudes offering an alternative to Smash-style games - botched their first attempt to transition SUPER HARD and intentionally. Smash 4 came way too late for the community to actually transition. You motherfuckers can jerk off into your CRTs forever, I don't give a drat, but most games without an equivalent build up a long-lasting scene.

# ? Jul 16, 2017 08:06

Dias: Feb 20, 2011; by sebmojo

basically the smash community hasn't so much stuck to their guns as they got handed a jammed trebuchet to replace it, rightfully threw it away and 15 years later got a new gun but they have no incentive to change by now

# ? Jul 16, 2017 08:08

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 3, 2024 16:53

NecroMonster: Jan 4, 2009

some people might not be aware of this but, in melee, when you jump from the ground your jump preserves your ground momentum. if you were running you jump farther and faster than if you were walking.

that isn't true of brawl/smash4.

the very simple act of jumping is wildly different in feel and result between the games.

# ? Jul 16, 2017 08:10

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > EVOLUTION 2017 - We are only watching this for Puyo Puyo Tetris, really

«‹›92 »