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Kilza posted:https://twitter.com/FriedgeHNIC/status/886975773709619200 That's a decent contract.
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Jul 17, 2017 16:53
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 I like that deal.
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Jul 17, 2017 17:04
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That's a good and reasonable contract. Takes him to UFA, at age 27, too.
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Jul 17, 2017 17:50
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Zodijackylite posted:That's a good and reasonable contract. Takes him to UFA, at age 27, too. Yeah that part isn't great but I'm sure it's why he probably took a bit less than he might have.
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Jul 17, 2017 17:56
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It's slightly backloaded, too. 2.6m the first year, 3.3m the second, 3.4m the third. How much do you want to bet he gets traded next year?
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Jul 17, 2017 17:57
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DJExile posted:They're at least approaching it better than they historically have. My one annoyance is that they're completely committed to the 1A/1B tandem thing (which is part of what drove Steve Mason off) and I don't think taht's ever been shown to really work well. Tandems work okay if you have 2 goalies that are too good to be backups but not good enough to be starters.
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Jul 17, 2017 18:09
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Worked out nicely for Minnesota when they were running Fernandez/Roloson
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Jul 17, 2017 18:10
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Suspicious posted:Tandems work okay if you have 2 goalies that are too good to be backups but not good enough to be starters. What if you just have two really poo poo backups?
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Jul 17, 2017 18:12
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i think, at this stage, you have to be very incompetent as a GM to sign a player to a bad contract.
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Jul 17, 2017 18:16
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Gio posted:i think, at this stage, you have to be very incompetent as a GM to sign a player to a bad contract. Or you work for a organization where you have to overpay to attract UFA's. Although one wonders what the gently caress has gone on in your org that it's gotten to that point. El Gallinero Gros fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Jul 17, 2017 |
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Jul 17, 2017 18:19
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Gio posted:i think, at this stage, you have to be very incompetent as a GM to sign a player to a bad contract. "Bad" is also somewhat subjective. The Marleau contract is bad. But in Toronto it's fine.
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Jul 17, 2017 18:24
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Habibi posted:"Bad" is also somewhat subjective. The Marleau contract is bad. But in Toronto it's fine. Not really no, bad is bad regardless of the position the team is in. The whole "horrible contracts don't matter when you have lots of cap space!" thing is so short sighted. They can afford him now, but in a season or two that can quickly transition to an expensive mistake. It's not like cap space has to be spent or it goes sour. The Leafs are hardly at a point when they can assume that the playoffs are a given. They may well be in a position where they're sellers at the deadline again, and that extra $6M could be spent on taking on a bad contract as they've done several times before. Conversely they could be a 110 point team and that extra cap space could easily be spent on a bit of depth that would contribute far more than Marleau will. I can assure you that next year when they have to watch JVR walk as a UFA to keep Marleau's purifying corpse on the roster it'll sting a fair bit. Just because you have enough cash now to pay for a $20,000 Bulgari watch doesn't mean it's a sensible financial decision when you're thinking about buying a house in the next couple years
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Jul 17, 2017 18:39
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Gio posted:i think, at this stage, you have to be very incompetent as a GM to sign a player to a bad contract. So Bergevin or Yzerman?
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Jul 17, 2017 19:12
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DJExile posted:They're at least approaching it better than they historically have. My one annoyance is that they're completely committed to the 1A/1B tandem thing (which is part of what drove Steve Mason off) and I don't think taht's ever been shown to really work well. When Mason was here, yeah, he clearly should have been given a starting workload. With Elliott though it makes much more sense seeing how he's never played more than 50 games in a season. Plus I recall him and Allen being a real solid tandem in St. Louis.
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Jul 17, 2017 19:32
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ThinkTank posted:Not really no, bad is bad regardless of the position the team is in. The whole "horrible contracts don't matter when you have lots of cap space!" thing is so short sighted. They can afford him now, but in a season or two that can quickly transition to an expensive mistake. It's not like cap space has to be spent or it goes sour. The Leafs are hardly at a point when they can assume that the playoffs are a given. They may well be in a position where they're sellers at the deadline again, and that extra $6M could be spent on taking on a bad contract as they've done several times before. Conversely they could be a 110 point team and that extra cap space could easily be spent on a bit of depth that would contribute far more than Marleau will. I can assure you that next year when they have to watch JVR walk as a UFA to keep Marleau's purifying corpse on the roster it'll sting a fair bit. Well said. In 2019-20 they have $10m in cap hit tied up in 40-year-old Patrick Marleau, Matt Martin, and Phil Kessel. Even without factoring in the cap space, those are probably two roster spots who they're going to want to fill with better/younger players since that's around when they might start competing for real.
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Jul 17, 2017 19:50
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Zodijackylite posted:In 2019-20 they have $10m in cap hit tied up in 40-year-old Patrick Marleau, Matt Martin, and Phil Kessel. Even without factoring in the cap space, those are probably two roster spots who they're going to want to fill with better/younger players since that's around when they might start competing for real. Not to mention they already pissed away a bunch of cap space by being forced to LTIR guys in the summer instead of once the season began just to get everyone signed. That's cap mismanagement at its worst.
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Jul 17, 2017 19:56
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The Leafs immediately pivoting to win now status and signing Marleau to that absurd contract definitely seems like the type of thing that can come back to bite them in the rear end. See also: The Sens thinking they're anywhere close to a Cup thanks to that improbable run they just had.
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Jul 17, 2017 20:00
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ThinkTank posted:Just because you have enough cash now to pay for a $20,000 Bulgari watch doesn't mean it's a sensible financial decision when you're thinking about buying a house in the next couple years This is loserthink. Winners buy that watch because they know they're winners and the winning will never stop. Even if they've never won before. Winning attitudes are created from pure will and hard work not bullshit like stats and cap management. All I do is win win win no matter what Got Stanley Cups on my mind I can never get enough And every time I step up in the AC Centre Everybody hands go up And they stay there And they say yeah Etc
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Jul 17, 2017 20:03
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Ginette Reno posted:The Leafs immediately pivoting to win now status and signing Marleau to that absurd contract definitely seems like the type of thing that can come back to bite them in the rear end. The Sens would be a pretty good team if they traded away Cody Ceci. You'd think they'd have learned from the Cowen debacle, but nope.
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Jul 17, 2017 20:06
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ThinkTank posted:Not really no, bad is bad regardless of the position the team is in. The whole "horrible contracts don't matter when you have lots of cap space!" thing is so short sighted. They can afford him now, but in a season or two that can quickly transition to an expensive mistake. It's not like cap space has to be spent or it goes sour. The Leafs are hardly at a point when they can assume that the playoffs are a given. They may well be in a position where they're sellers at the deadline again, and that extra $6M could be spent on taking on a bad contract as they've done several times before. Conversely they could be a 110 point team and that extra cap space could easily be spent on a bit of depth that would contribute far more than Marleau will. I can assure you that next year when they have to watch JVR walk as a UFA to keep Marleau's purifying corpse on the roster it'll sting a fair bit. Yes, sure. Sorry, let me re-frame my post: from the perspective of the team, what it means to be an 'incompetent gm' is subjective.
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Jul 17, 2017 20:11
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Ginette Reno posted:The Leafs immediately pivoting to win now status Funniest part of the offseason so far.
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Jul 17, 2017 20:15
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bub spank posted:The Sens would be a pretty good team if they traded away Cody Ceci. Their D in general is kinda bad it's just that Karlsson really props it up by playing half the game
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Jul 17, 2017 20:20
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Ginette Reno posted:The Leafs immediately pivoting to win now status and signing Marleau to that absurd contract definitely seems like the type of thing that can come back to bite them in the rear end. They signed 3 guys to 35+ deals. That's crazy to me.
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Jul 17, 2017 20:20
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bub spank posted:The Sens would be a pretty good team if they traded away Cody Ceci. It's different with Cowen, he was from buttfuck Saskatchewan. But Cody Ceci, he's a good hometown kid! You can't get rid of hometown kids!
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Jul 17, 2017 20:29
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ThinkTank posted:They signed 3 guys to 35+ deals. That's crazy to me. I'm convinced the Marleau contract was the result of Babcock's crush. Levitate posted:Their D in general is kinda bad it's just that Karlsson really props it up by playing half the game You can probably say the exact same thing about their offense.
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Jul 17, 2017 20:31
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The Rockets are up for sale in Houston, someone please get some money together and buy them and clear the way for an NHL team here right away, tia
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Jul 17, 2017 20:38
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Dang, I would have taken Pageau for that price
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Jul 17, 2017 21:40
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Yeah the Marleau contract is a bad deal. Regardless of the Leafs ability to absorb the hit and maintain their existing players (which I think they can likely do but let's not write a novel about it), there's also the opportunity cost in not being able to acquire other players and just straight up giving up a roster spot to a guy who will likely be ineffective pretty soon. The Leafs whole offseason was just nepotism and age-fetishization.
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Jul 17, 2017 21:57
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I just get sad when guys like Marleau don't finish their career with the team they spent like 20 years with. Bergevin: please sign Markov. 
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Jul 17, 2017 22:07
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The signing sucks but what it represents is the real worrying bit. Looked like they were finally committed to building an actual team for a bit there. Shame they're so high on that litch king they got running things.
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Jul 17, 2017 22:09
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I wonder how much cash Campbell gets from his front office, marketing job. I'm sure there would have been plenty of teams who would have been happy to pay 2m or more for his services as a fourth D or whatever. That said I understand multimillionaires might not be that interested in competing for a roster spot or go through the grueling season at 38-39 years of age.
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Jul 17, 2017 22:30
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JoelJoel posted:The signing sucks but what it represents is the real worrying bit. Looked like they were finally committed to building an actual team for a bit there. Shame they're so high on that litch king they got running things. I mean they signed some old dudes, but they didn't trade anyone away either. It looks more like the "veteran mentorship" fetish that led to them giving Roman Polak two years than a team that's trying to skip ahead in the rebuild and go all in. It's not like trading Rask for Raycroft or Steen and Colaiaccovo for Stempniak.
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Jul 17, 2017 22:31
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Habibi posted:I'm convinced the Marleau contract was the result of Babcock's crush. Stone, Turris, and Hoffman are all pretty consistent 60ish point players, which is above average production from a top 6 forward in today's game. Brassard was unlucky last year but his underlying numbers were great, and he should bounce back next year. Ryan and MacArthur are getting old but are still at least average 2nd line players, while Pageau, Dzingel, and Smith are all quality 2nd/3rd line tweeners. It's not a spectacularly flashy top 9, and none of them are centrepiece players (except maaaaybe Stone or Hoffman), but Karlsson removes the need for a superstar up front. The team's main problem is that Cody Ceci is generally on the ice whenever Karlsson isn't. Replace him with even a mediocre 2nd pairing player, and it's a pretty good team. But even if Chabot can step in like Werenski or McAvoy on the left side, Ceci's going to drag him down playing on the right. bub spank fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Jul 17, 2017 |
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Jul 17, 2017 22:53
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Hand Knit posted:I mean they signed some old dudes, but they didn't trade anyone away either. It looks more like the "veteran mentorship" fetish that led to them giving Roman Polak two years than a team that's trying to skip ahead in the rebuild and go all in. I dunno, some of the other old man contracts they signed don't seem so awful, but Marleau just screams "we're close and just need that extra piece". I see your point about asset management. That's fair. Guess in the end it only costs them cap space and a contract slot. Just seems like the opposite type of move they should be doing. Guess we'll have to wait and see what they do at the deadline.
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Jul 17, 2017 22:59
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JoelJoel posted:I dunno, some of the other old man contracts they signed don't seem so awful, but Marleau just screams "we're close and just need that extra piece". Why do you think that? Like, there are more cost efficient options out there, but Zach Hyman was fourth on the team in ATOI last year so they did need another top 6 winger who killed penalties, and Marleau's contract is set up so that he's probably only gonna play two years for the Leafs. They overpaid for a necessary upgrade — they didn't mortgage anything.
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Jul 17, 2017 23:09
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Hand Knit posted:Why do you think that? Like, there are more cost efficient options out there, but Zach Hyman was fourth on the team in ATOI last year so they did need another top 6 winger who killed penalties, and Marleau's contract is set up so that he's probably only gonna play two years for the Leafs. They overpaid for a necessary upgrade — they didn't mortgage anything. They didn't give up physical assets, but cap space is a commodity in and of itself. Considering JVR's contract is up in a year's time, it probably means the team can no longer fit him in under the cap. Is one year of Marleau worth losing JVR next summer? I'd argue no. He's also on a 35+ contract so the full amount counts against the cap if he retires early. The only relief they can get is to buy him out. Actually its been confirmed that 35+ players do not get salary relief if bought out. Marleau will cost the Leafs the full $6.25M per year he is owed regardless of whether he is bought out, retired or put on LTIR. ThinkTank fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Jul 17, 2017 |
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Jul 17, 2017 23:16
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Zodijackylite posted:Well said.
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Jul 17, 2017 23:48
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bub spank posted:Brassard was unlucky last year but his underlying numbers were great, and he should bounce back next year. While Brassard was a bit unlucky, his boom in offense the previous two years also came from different deployment. His Corsi/Fenwick look great because he was shooting a lot - his 166 ES shots are by far a career high - but underlying that, he's both in a lesser role and declining a bit. His ES point totals were fairly consistent with his career totals, excepting two anomalies in the last two years. In 14-15, he led the Rangers in PPTOI, and was second the year after. Him and Zucc were the #1 guys on their power play. In Ottawa last year, he was sixth in PPTOI - only 10-15 minutes less than during those previous two years, but he was much less productive and the power play worked around the other guys, not him. His high assist total in 14-15 stems from Nash's 42-goal season, 32 of which were at ES, more than half with Brassard on the ice. His high goal total in 15-16 was partly due to the power play, although also some career best shooting in general.
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Jul 17, 2017 23:50
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Hand Knit posted:Why do you think that? Like, there are more cost efficient options out there, but Zach Hyman was fourth on the team in ATOI last year so they did need another top 6 winger who killed penalties, and Marleau's contract is set up so that he's probably only gonna play two years for the Leafs. They overpaid for a necessary upgrade — they didn't mortgage anything. Well, for what it's worth (not much), Hyman and Marleau are close to the bottom of the league in SH GA/60 and only slightly better in CA/60. Yes sample sizes are limited but I don't understand how Hyman got a reputation as a great pensltykiller besides that he scored a few shorthanded goals. Soshnikov, Brown and Komarov all did better. ThinkTank posted:He's also on a 35+ contract so the full amount counts against the cap if he retires early. The only relief they can get is to buy him out. The theory is that he can be traded to a cheapskate team since his cap hit will be nearly $4M higher than his salary in his final year. I'm not yet convinced that this can be done without giving up assets, though, and it also assumes that he'll be healthy enough to play. Otherwise the only other option is Robidas Island (or a lockout yaaaay).
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Jul 18, 2017 00:04
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I just spent my day off reading Patrick O'Sullivan's book, and my god, I didn't realize the extent of the horrors that he had to live through. His father was an absolute madman and controlled every aspect of his life. He was pretty much forced to train and play hockey 24/7 from a young age. The book feels like a gut punch at the end when Pat goes back to all his former coaches to ask them why they didn't do anything. None of the NHL teams he went to offered a psychologist. He only has awful words for Marc Crawford, and apparently he was Crawford's whipping boy for his entire rookie season. He took a puck to the face and broke his jaw, and when he showed up to the next practice with one of those guards to protect him from further injury, Crawford pretty much called him a pussy and demanded the trainers take it off. Crawford also made him bag skate by himself for 20 minutes while all his teammates watched. His time in Edmonton sounds largely disorganized, mostly because, in his words, they trade using him as a 3rd-liner, and that wasn't his game at all. Judging based on his words, he washed out of the NHL quickly because of a combination of poor management and his PTSD (that was only diagnosed after he left hockey).
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Jul 18, 2017 00:10
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