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If we ever have a tied vote by the way I'd like to suggest to Covski that we begin playing two games at once of Chess at that point of divergence. E: Nice piece of fish posted:Actually, hold the gently caress up. I just thought of something. Gimme a sec, phoneposting. Remember guys, we have plwnty of time. White is playing like a goddamned chess computer, so we need to make no mistakes here. I think you're onto something. We might not be facing a hivemind, we might be facing the hivemind. 
HerpicleOmnicron5 fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Jul 17, 2017 |
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Jul 17, 2017 19:12
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Actually, hold the gently caress up. I just thought of something. Gimme a sec, phoneposting. Remember guys, we have plwnty of time. White is playing like a goddamned chess computer, so we need to make no mistakes here.
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Jul 17, 2017 19:15
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Okay, so white wants to be a badass. They want to break out, they want to develop their board, they want to put us on the defensive, and I loving bet this:Paul.Power posted:I'm feeling Qd7 now for a move into a queenside castle that should automatically gets our rook directly behind the queen. It's not the most aggressive play right now, but it should lead to a strong position down the line. Still don't want to vote just yet though. is what white actually has in mind. It might be exactly what they are hoping for. So strategically, white A: Needs that knight on f3, B: Needs us to move our queen to somewhere on d corridor they can make a threat against her. The thing is, white isn't counting on us to make a costly exchange. The thing is also, it's not all that costly to us when we know white wants to king side castle. I propose Bxf3. We trade the bishop for the knight. It's a good trade as we stand right now, that bishop is blocked and not the most useful piece to break a siege on a castle. A knight is. If they take it with the pawn, they gently caress up their structure that the king is gonna turtle behind. If they take it with the queen, she's to a side and not fantastically placed any more, and we can really go hard down d corridor. In fact, after a Qxf3, we can start threatening all sorts of stuff. Qd7 now brings us into position to negate that queens threat if they decide to make a move on c6 knight. This fucks their right side offensive and neuters the queen down d corridor OR fucks with white's castling. We even trade pieces of somewhat same value, though as you can tell from the board, white's knight is set to do more damage than our bishop is. They are also probably not expecting it. Let's gently caress with them where they live. Show them we have the balls to do what they didn't. My vote is for Bxf3 Nice piece of fish fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Jul 18, 2017 |
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Jul 17, 2017 19:32
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Ooh. Yeah, that'd be a pretty good move to derail their (probable?) plans. Although yet again I'd like to see what other people think of it before I commit (sorry! But as you say, there's plenty of time). What fallout might result from something like this (other than losing a bishop, anyway)?
Paul.Power fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Jul 17, 2017 |
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Jul 17, 2017 20:03
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Paul.Power posted:Ooh. Yeah, that'd be a pretty good move to derail their (probable?) plans. Although yet again I'd like to see what other people think of it before I commit (sorry! But as you say, there's plenty of time). What fallout might result from something like this (other than losing a bishop, anyway)? Basically it'd signal that poo poo Has Gotten Real. Once that knight is taken it'll show White that we're ready to start playing hardball, and they'll most assuredly up their aggression at the same time. At the same time it negates one avenue of protection White has on their obnoxious center pawn, leaving only their queen to defend it. And thirdly, it'd either gently caress up White's king-side defenses if they want to castle or force their queen out of position. Anyway, it's actually probably the smartest move we can do right now, so Bxf3
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Jul 17, 2017 20:16
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All right then, let's go for it. Bxf3
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Jul 17, 2017 20:18
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So the plan is to break up White's control of the center a bit at the cost of delaying the castling a move? Actually, let me think on this more. That kinda leaves our kingside totally empty... Davin Valkri fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Jul 17, 2017 |
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Jul 17, 2017 20:20
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:If we ever have a tied vote by the way I'd like to suggest to Covski that we begin playing two games at once of Chess at that point of divergence. Nah, I really doubt that. We're just playing against an opponent that has a lot of good players with a lot of time to think and as many theory resources as we do. We can generally assume that white will make a great move every time. This just means that we need to be unpredictable, keep pressure on white, and seize whatever advantage we can claw ourselves to. Make no mistake. We are in a real fight now, and we have to be ready to make sacrifices and play like we mean it. White is as good as we are, and we can't expect them to make any mistakes or show any weakness. And neither can we afford to.
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Jul 17, 2017 20:22
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Paul.Power posted:Ooh. Yeah, that'd be a pretty good move to derail their (probable?) plans. Although yet again I'd like to see what other people think of it before I commit (sorry! But as you say, there's plenty of time). What fallout might result from something like this (other than losing a bishop, anyway)? Good. We're not in a rush, and I'll change my vote if someone proposes a better move, but I see that knight coming now and we have precious few good moves to oppose it. However, we do have the somewhat costly option of weakening the very side white is hoping to defend behind. That's going to cost us regardless. I can't see a better move right now, but I'll keep thinking about it to see if some more inspired move strikes me.
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Jul 17, 2017 20:34
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Nice piece of fish posted:Good. We're not in a rush, and I'll change my vote if someone proposes a better move, but I see that knight coming now and we have precious few good moves to oppose it. Honestly the psych factor might be the biggest win here. No matter what they do we're loving up White's strategies something fierce with this move, and that's never a pleasant feeling in a chess game. Up until now both sides have had plans that have gone off fairly well and without too much fuss. This will be one hell of a slap to the face for White.
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Jul 17, 2017 20:38
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You know what would be a slap? loving Qa5. Bxf3 is a bad move.
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Jul 17, 2017 20:39
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:You know what would be a slap? loving Qa5. Bxf3 is a bad move. It's really not. Fact of the matter is that the bishop in question has outlived his usefulness  now that the knight is in the way. Taking the knight not only removes an extremely useful piece from the board, but also fucks up White's defense even as they take our bishop.Qa5 really doesn't do that; White's move to protect their king by moving out a knight will also strengthen their defense and offense at the same time while putting our queen in a bad position.
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Jul 17, 2017 20:45
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Dr. Snark posted:Honestly the psych factor might be the biggest win here. No matter what they do we're loving up White's strategies something fierce with this move, and that's never a pleasant feeling in a chess game. Yeah, that's at the back of my mind too. Remember, we are dealing with a collective, not a single seasoned player. And again, there's also the entertainment factor for those folks following the game, which is worth something too. After all, we're doing this for fun. HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:You know what would be a slap? loving Qa5. Bxf3 is a bad move. We're however not doing this to lose. If we move the queen out to a5 as a symbolic gesture, that gains us nothing and you know it. Come on dude, even you see that Nc3 coming. Chess is mainly a fight for the center, because the important corridors and all the important diagonals go through it. Moving a queen to the extreme side is usually considered a weak move - you simultaneously reduce half of the queen's threat picture on the board while essentially ceding the central corridors. A queen to the side is a late-game move at the very best, when the board opens up after most of the pieces are gone. Then you start thinking long diagonals and corridors. We need to make it to that late game first and not trap our queen to one side while inviting a free developing move from someone who is now a single or at most two moves away from castling.
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Jul 17, 2017 20:47
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Actually, come to think of it, may I formally propose Qb6? I imagine a kings-side castle looks rather less inviting when a queen is threatening to get all up in your business there. And if we can clear the pawn on d4 and get something to threaten f2, it becomes a mating threat.
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Jul 17, 2017 20:49
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Nice piece of fish posted:Yeah, that's at the back of my mind too. Remember, we are dealing with a collective, not a single seasoned player. And again, there's also the entertainment factor for those folks following the game, which is worth something too. After all, we're doing this for fun. You don't seem to get the point of a5: A5 forces Nc3, which gets pinned. This means we can get the bishop guaranteed. You know, the bishop that's pinning our knight. We free the pin, gain the centre all without losing material. It's the single best situation for us! Play it out, you'll see that I'm right.
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Jul 17, 2017 20:56
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Davin Valkri posted:Actually, come to think of it, may I formally propose Qb6? I imagine a kings-side castle looks rather less inviting when a queen is threatening to get all up in your business there. And if we can clear the pawn on d4 and get something to threaten f2, it becomes a mating threat. I was thinking about it, but it seems a sort of pointless in the long run. We're not moving that pawn any time soon without a rook stack. They can still go Nc3, and now the bishop's protected. Even if they don't do our queen, they can also build up their center and go Ne5 so long as our knight on c6 is in a hard pin. It's kind of the strategy I was going to do on them, if things were reversed. Our bishop outlives its usefulness where it is almost the moment they move their queen, and it doesn't do much for our d corridor offense. I don't know. I see your point, but I'm afraid it's too passive at this point.
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Jul 17, 2017 20:57
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Davin Valkri posted:Actually, come to think of it, may I formally propose Qb6? I imagine a kings-side castle looks rather less inviting when a queen is threatening to get all up in your business there. And if we can clear the pawn on d4 and get something to threaten f2, it becomes a mating threat. The pawn in the center blocks that angle of attack entirely and it's well protected enough that it'd be irrelevant. HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:You don't seem to get the point of a5: A5 forces Nc3, which gets pinned. This means we can get the bishop guaranteed. You know, the bishop that's pinning our knight. We free the pin, gain the centre all without losing material. It's the single best situation for us! Play it out, you'll see that I'm right. ...Herp. Nc3 would mean that the knight in question would protect their bishop. If we took their bishop at that point our queen would be dead dead dead. Even if we threatened it with our rightmost pawn it could just backstep to column a and still be protected by their bishop. It ain't happening.
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Jul 17, 2017 20:58
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Dr. Snark posted:The pawn in the center blocks that angle of attack entirely and it's well protected enough that it'd be irrelevant. Exactly. Play it out yourself, with what are we guaranteed to take that bishop? Don't get married to your first idea, remember. I just reconsidered my first impulse before my suggestion, reconsider yours.
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Jul 17, 2017 20:59
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 Nc3 protects jack poo poo because of the pawn on A6 (the turn after we'd move A6). The knight is pinned, so what the gently caress can they do? If they move the bishop anywhere other than A4, we take the pawn on D4 with our knight that is now no longer pinned. If they counter that with their own knight, we take their Queen with the bishop on G4. If the Bishop goes back to A4, we can press it with pawn B5 which gives us an even better development queen side, and we'd have thoroughly cornered them. It'd be a useless bishop. And all this presumes they make the perfect move of Nc3, which they may not. Even in the case of Nc3, this is a good move. In the case of not Nc3, this is a brilliant loving move. Qa5 is honestly the best thing we can do right now. I can say that with 100% certainty. If we do not play this, we lose. HerpicleOmnicron5 fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Jul 17, 2017 |
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Jul 17, 2017 21:04
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:
...white would play 8. Bxc6+ xc6 9. Bf4 and now our queenside castle plan is totally fragged. Herp. You are a dolt. Nobody should listen to you when it comes to moves.
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Jul 17, 2017 21:08
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I am going to be so loving vindicated when we're allowed to see the observer chat and they 100% agree with me for once.
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Jul 17, 2017 21:09
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:
Problem (and don't get me wrong I appreciate your reasoning): We've kinda sorta been banking on the whole queen side castle thing and if both pawns dash up like that it'd make that side more or less untenable for defending the king. Furthermore, we're putting in a lot of moves to negate the threat of one singular piece. By contrast, sacrificing our bishop which has already proven to be more or less ineffective at this point negates the threat of a knight in one move and fucks with White's long-term strategies much more. Your plan could work, but it'd rely on White making non-optimal moves and I'm of the mind that Bxf3 is the better play for the longer term.
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Jul 17, 2017 21:12
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Besides, that assumes that they don't do 8. Bd2, because the knight that would be guarding the queen is pinned! Moron!
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Jul 17, 2017 21:13
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:
In response to that Qa5 I'd go d4. And now you do what, exactly? A6 still? Now white queen, that pawn and maybe a knight can execute an attack that puts us in a possible mate in 3 moves. Davin Valkri posted:Besides, that assumes that they don't do 8. Bd2, because the knight that would be guarding the queen is pinned! Moron! Also that. The moves available to us does not allow this strategy to work.
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Jul 17, 2017 21:18
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Even in the event of Davin Valkri posted:...white would play 8. Bxc6+ xc6 9. Bf4 we could still queenside castle. You can move the rook through danger, just not the king. Also queenside castling puts our king on the c rank which kind of sucks and I'd rather leave him where he is all things considered.
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Jul 17, 2017 21:21
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Okay, here are our unthreatened, unpinned board positions and moves: And here are theirs:  It's clear to me our board position is so much better. Just look at that. We bring both knights to a stand still and most likely force their bishop to forego that pin. I even forgot to label any of our pawns except for A6 for some reason and only labelled a counter take for B7. It's just so much better a position that I can't believe you guys aren't leaping at it.
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Jul 17, 2017 21:21
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:Okay, here are our unthreatened, unpinned board positions and moves: It's because that's false openness. Almost all of those moves you marked would result in us losing pieces to White. And for that matter no sane player would ever move a rook at this stage save for castling. Edit: ...Also you have an extra pawn on the right side. Are you serious. Dr. Snark fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Jul 17, 2017 |
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Jul 17, 2017 21:23
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Nice piece of fish posted:In response to that Qa5 I'd go d4. D4? You mean C4 right? That's prime time to castle in that case, and bring our Rook to bear for Knight takes D4 defended by the rook, or pawn to E5 to both develop and protect aggression on D4. Dr. Snark posted:It's because that's false openness. Almost all of those moves you marked would result in us losing pieces to White. But we can make them, and we can take them. That means White will be worrying since any move they make may weaken their structure and present vulnerabilities that can be exploited since we're in striking distance of any of their pieces! Dr. Snark posted:Edit: ...Also you have an extra pawn on the right side. Are you serious. Alright, I made a gently caress up on the editor, big whoop. HerpicleOmnicron5 fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Jul 17, 2017 |
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Jul 17, 2017 21:24
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oldskool posted:Even in the event of I kind of feel you there, especially if our right side gets weakened enough. It's a strong case for getting our second bishop out ASAP, but I'm afraid we need to deal with this f3 knight first. E: Also it's looking more and more like vote o'clock. I don't see a better alternative that doesn't put us on the defensive or disrupts the apparent white gameplan. We're also far enough out now that we should probably talk a little more about strategy, and if anyone has questions or need some clarifications, this is a good time for effortposts. Nice piece of fish fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Jul 17, 2017 |
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Jul 17, 2017 22:30
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Davin Valkri posted:Actually, come to think of it, may I formally propose Qb6? I imagine a kings-side castle looks rather less inviting when a queen is threatening to get all up in your business there. And if we can clear the pawn on d4 and get something to threaten f2, it becomes a mating threat. Alright, I've looked at this thoroughly, and it's not a bad idea. I really don't think it is. It hinges on getting rid of that d4 pawn though. While the bishop where it is is a bit useless at the moment, we may want to delay attacking that knight because right now it's pinned, and only a queen exchange move would make it worth moving. E5 would be a way to rid us of the d4 pawn, and at the same time release the second bishop, and also open a king's side castle which we may need. That's a possible, but if white moves the queen they are coming for that pawn first. Or, if we take the d4 pawn, we don't have the clout in the moves available to win that exchange without losing us the queen, and now they have d corridor to attack. If we had the move and inclination to queen's side castle, maybe. That damned knight can do too much bad to us so long as the queen can be moved, and white has that castling opportunity. I want to stop that damned horse from getting to f7. Alright. I've played it out a bit and I agree. The surest way out of that potential fork on f7, their magic diagonal, is going to be to move the queen out now. Let's do Qb6. We'll reserve that bishop for when we want to break through, and let's make a plan for that goddamned corridor. This means though, that we are locked in for a queen side castling most likely, since we're gonna need both rooks. Which means we must try to get e pawn out and bishop out to play sooner rather than later. I see a structure here we might exploit, but it's going to be hairy, I think. No, I loving don't, because I'm not as good at chess as I think I am :iamafag: Nice piece of fish fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Jul 18, 2017 |
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Jul 17, 2017 23:46
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If you're going to go Qb6 I'd be careful. I've googled that line and found a match that matches it: https://chess-db.com/public/game.jsp?id=4601653.4650212.41008896.29517 It doesn't end well for us. I couldn't find any on Qa5. I think it's a bad bad bad idea to use a line this easily googleable at this stage in the game, and if we do we need to depart from precedent soon after.
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Jul 17, 2017 23:55
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:If you're going to go Qb6 I'd be careful. I've googled that line and found a match that matches it: https://chess-db.com/public/game.jsp?id=4601653.4650212.41008896.29517 Well, at least it's confirmed we're playing on a grandmaster level  That ought to tell us something I think. Yes, I know, there aren't all that many options from where we're sitting. Qa5 is a terrible one, though. Alright, all things being equal and keeping in mind this is an LP, let's not do the thing that's googleable - fair enough. Particularly since we probably lose that way. Apparently. I re-change my vote back to the original Bxf3. gently caress'em where they live and defy expectations.
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Jul 18, 2017 00:08
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I maintain that Qa5 is better than Bxf3 on a fundamental level.
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Jul 18, 2017 00:11
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:I maintain that Qa5 is better than Bxf3 on a fundamental level. What a shock, the guy who crashes into canal walls wants to crash our queen into a wall.
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Jul 18, 2017 00:16
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CirclMastr posted:What a shock, the guy who crashes into canal walls wants to crash our queen into a wall. Better than crashing our bishop against their wall of pawns.
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Jul 18, 2017 00:29
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Alright, I'll vote for Bxf3.
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Jul 18, 2017 03:04
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Let's go a bit crazy, Bxf3
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Jul 18, 2017 04:01
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Bxf3 is a terrible move guys, abort abort abort My move of choice is still Qd5.
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Jul 18, 2017 04:10
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Bxf3 wins the vote!
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Jul 18, 2017 12:12
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 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Bb5+ c6 5.dxc6 Nxc6 6.Nf3 Bxf3 White has 24 hours to decide on a move.
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Jul 18, 2017 12:27
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