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Mr. Locke posted:
Hell, you could readily contend that one of our newest Eternians is worse than all of those. Though DeRosa will always be a contender for Absolute Worst of course. And really once you've employed people that heinous the solution is less "terminate employment" and more "publicly execute".
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Jul 11, 2017 21:22
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CmdrKing posted:Hell, you could readily contend that one of our newest Eternians is worse than all of those. Though DeRosa will always be a contender for Absolute Worst of course.
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Jul 11, 2017 22:15
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Let's not forget that Victoria is still out there, too.
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Jul 11, 2017 22:50
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I don't think the moral is "We've been wrong about the Eternians all along." The Eternians are terrible, terrible people, and have murdered hundreds of thousands in Eisenberg alone using methods considered war crimes, both IRL and in universe. Would things be better if Alternis or Einheria or Kamiizumi sat down and tried to explain what their goals were and negotiate a mutually beneficial agreement with Agnes? Quite possibly, but whatever their stance on the crystals and everything else, the Eternian military is still trying to subvert or conquer the entire world and purge an entire religious group and we'd still have to fight them in the end on those grounds.
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Jul 11, 2017 23:42
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:Let's not forget that Victoria is still out there, too. She was mentioned.
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Jul 12, 2017 00:24
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Patter Song posted:I don't think the moral is "We've been wrong about the Eternians all along." And that's assuming there even is any common ground to be found; as far as the party is aware, their goal of awakening the Crystals is mutually incompatible with whatever the Eternians have in mind.
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Jul 12, 2017 02:33
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CmdrKing posted:Hell, you could readily contend that one of our newest Eternians is worse than all of those. Though DeRosa will always be a contender for Absolute Worst of course. I recall mentioning the three biggest assholes back at the start of the thread... Of course, even now, that's still getting ahead of ourselves. Epsilon Moonshade posted:
Hey, look, I found it. AND I remembered!  (even if I wasn't actually the one to mention them)
Epsilon Moonshade fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Jul 12, 2017 |
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Jul 12, 2017 02:45
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In this one specific case, I actually don't mind the swordmaster not going into a long explanation. Set aside they're the bad guys for a second. They think they're right. Edea is/was a member of the Eternian army. She's the swordmaster's disciple, and she presumably studied under him for years. By all accounts, she's drat good. When he finally deemed her ready, he sent her on a mission to capture the vestal. Hell, he sent her off armed with his finest sword. And then she turns traitor, killing hundreds of her former comrades. Out of some fondness for his former student, he's planning to give her one last chance to say, "Yeah, I hosed up," before he kills her. Edea wants a conversation, he does not. Maybe he'd explain things if she stepped down and let him bring in the vestal, but without the convenient whatever it was, Edea was a dead woman.
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Jul 12, 2017 05:27
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hey girl you up posted:In this one specific case, I actually don't mind the swordmaster not going into a long explanation. Set aside they're the bad guys for a second. They think they're right. Edea is the daughter of the boss. The problem is not why they can't spend 5 minutes now for the cliff notes version of why the crystal orthodoxy is bad news, the problem is why Edea never got briefed on this before getting sent off to capture Agnes. Sent off with Ominas "Pyromaniac" Crowe I might add, that's just asking for a mutiny considering Edea's personality. E: seriously Edea's defection felt like an accelerated "We're the baddies" sketch. Half a minute from noticing the skulls to recruiting the party to execute Crowe, no second thoughts. Omobono fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Jul 12, 2017 |
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Jul 12, 2017 18:13
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Also the problem is why her boss is hiring nutcases like DeRosa, Profiteur and Ominas.
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Jul 12, 2017 18:15
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CmdrKing posted:Hell, you could readily contend that one of our newest Eternians is worse than all of those. Though DeRosa will always be a contender for Absolute Worst of course. I don't think it's a contention at all- one of our new boys sets the 'evil-o-meter' for the Eternians pretty much straight to 11- not that having a psychopath randomly killing folks for fun or having basically a drug kingpin hook a market to his stuff under the guise of fashion product is any form of good, but we're about to hit the point where it goes from "These guys need better supervision, they doing some terrible poo poo behind your back.. is IS behind your back, right?" to "... and he yet LIVES?" and basically confirming that even if the Eternians are right about the Orthodoxy they still need to get their poo poo packed in for the sake of everything good and decent in the world. Plus, y'know, yeah. Maybe don't send the boss' daughter, who's philosophy contains terms like 'black as pitch,' out there without an idea of what the actual mission is with one of your Obviously Evil Murder Monsters as her C.O.
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Jul 12, 2017 20:07
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I mean, we've already gotten hints of that in Victoria, who's pretty casual about murdering anything that gets in her way... and is apparently one of the Grand Marshal's closest confidants.
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Jul 12, 2017 20:19
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Seeing as everyone seems to be dancing around a spoiler regarding the Eternians having a good reason for what they're doing (given the "press a to power crystal" mechanic I'm assuming it's that the crystals are actually evil and we'll have to over pray the last one and blow it up), I wish this story pattern would have the hero team find out about the reason, but still oppose the enemies because they disagree about means not ends. It opens the door for limited cooperation, potentially winning over some of the people who are on the enemy team for good reasons, and potential conflict with the people you are helping when it turns out you agree with Team Evil's goals. It would be a lot more interesting than "We torture puppies and won't tell you anything but 90% of the way through the game it turns out we were right all along" and having the game play that as a huge twist and implying that the good guys should feel regret for opposing Puppy Murder Inc.
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Jul 12, 2017 21:22
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The problem is that takes way more effort to write than just making them all evil because they have the asterisks and how are you going to get them to get sweet jobs if they're working with you are they gonna die nobly or like a chump or oh man there are so many variables. Also depends on if they want the Eternians to be sympathetic villians or out and out baddies and they're clearly going for the latter.
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Jul 12, 2017 21:29
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blackmongoose posted:It would be a lot more interesting than "We torture puppies and won't tell you anything but 90% of the way through the game it turns out we were right all along" and having the game play that as a huge twist and implying that the good guys should feel regret for opposing Puppy Murder Inc.
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Jul 12, 2017 22:31
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Commander Keene posted:Actually, I think the Eternians are so mustache-twirlingly evil because the writers don't want us to feel bad about opposing them and kicking their asterisks. If they gave the early antagonists any sliver of justification for their actions, some people would decide they're sympathetic and side emotionally with the Eternians, making murdering them for their sweet job classes and attaining emotional investiture in the plot more difficult. By the time we start getting hints that not all of the Eternians are Saturday morning cartoon villains (sidequests in Ch. 2 or main plot of Ch. 3), we're already supposed to have achieved empathy with the protagonists and firmly sided with them against the Eternians, due to their association with literal war criminals. Shouldn't you already have some empathy when you're killing the Thief in Chapter 1? Anyway, on a more charitable note, Kamiizumi is an elderly faux-Japanese mystical master of the sword. Of course he wants to rile up his pupil to her full potential so that she will eventually slay him and take his place, it's the oldest cliché in the book. For Kamiizumi to try to justify himself to Edea would give up his chance to put Edea to the test to see whether or not she has truly grown up and become a master able to fight for what she believes in etc. If he's able to kill her, clearly she wasn't ready. Is it stupid? Yes, but it's about the most charitable reading I can come up with here for why he's just "Edea, don't awaken the crystals." "But Master, why?" "If you awaken the crystals, I must fight you." "But Master, why?" "I must go now."
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Jul 12, 2017 22:53
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Patter Song posted:Shouldn't you already have some empathy when you're killing the Thief in Chapter 1?
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Jul 12, 2017 22:59
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EponymousMrYar posted:The problem is that takes way more effort to write than just making them all evil because they have the asterisks and how are you going to get them to get sweet jobs if they're working with you are they gonna die nobly or like a chump or oh man there are so many variables.
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Jul 13, 2017 05:26
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blackmongoose posted:I wish this story pattern would have the hero team find out about the reason, but still oppose the enemies because they disagree about means not ends. It opens the door for limited cooperation, potentially winning over some of the people who are on the enemy team for good reasons, and potential conflict with the people you are helping when it turns out you agree with Team Evil's goals. Final Fantasy VII actually does this with Shinra Corporation, who by the second half of the story hates and fears Sephiroth as much as Cloud & co. do, but are incompetent, cartoonishly evil buffoons whose plans range from ineffectual to counterproductive.
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Jul 13, 2017 06:54
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Omobono posted:Edea is the daughter of the boss. hey girl you up fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Jul 13, 2017 |
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Jul 13, 2017 16:33
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At this point I'm pretty sure the primary explanation Edea wants is "Are you all insane or is it just my dad for hiring people like you'
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Jul 13, 2017 17:01
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At this point, we have seen: Crystal Orthodoxy pros: - Agnes - Darkness of crystals has terrible effect on nature like seas rotting - Pious people are quiet pious people Crystal Orthodoxy cons: - Florem - Bribe accepting authorities And that's all we know. As for Eternia: - Eternian sky knights 2 vs 2 Holly is a sadist, while Ominas just burned his own guy down. Hienkel is probably following orders (he killed Owen though), and Barras died via frontal assault just like he wanted (I'm sure he wanted to do the frontal assault on us). - The Wind area We have the Eternian allies here... or more accurately... --> A sellsword that works for pg (and nothing else matters) --> A jealous king that allied with Eternia just because of anti crystalism and he gives Agnes grief --> A rat merchant who swindles people --> A desert bandit These guys are notably not Eternians, but more like allies. The sellsword's origin and motives beyond money remain a mystery - Florem We get: ---> A creepy pervert who attempted and nearly succeeded in ruining an entire country --> His two subordinates who have gone mad and are spreading drugs The one who hasn't gone mad isn't doing much of anything, really, beyond hunting crystalists, but why is she letting DeRosa get away with what he's doing? And we're now gonna explore this new land. But I'm just saying, the Eternians and their allies (especially after Florem) really aren't portrayed as people you want in charge of anything. Florem opens the can of worms that is corruption in the church, but we really need more information. We don't know anything. But hey, let's wait for the update. We can talk about it all we want, but it won't change Bravely Default's story. Also, everyone seems to think vestals have blinded the world and Edea, judging by what Alternis said, but the only thing blind about Agnes is her sense of direction.
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Jul 13, 2017 20:22
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Florem is also rather heavily tinted by being pretty late-stage in DeRosa's plan. I wouldn't say that the Matron there was corrupt, just woefully unprepared/oblivious to the subversion.
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Jul 13, 2017 20:35
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It's kind of funny comparing the King of Caldisla to the Matriarch or Khamer.
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Jul 13, 2017 23:03
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Alavaria posted:But all 4 of you can use an asterisk already, if it's that the maximum is 4, then only 3 of you would be able to use it at the same time as one of them.
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Jul 14, 2017 01:34
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Also there's something satisfying about going 'oh man look at that dude, that dude is a dick and obviously a JOB, we're getting beat up by his abilities to see what they do to us, man it's going to be great when we kill him and take his JOB for ourselves!'
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Jul 14, 2017 01:53
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Then I suppose you could say that the asterisk-holders in this game are all jobbers.
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Jul 14, 2017 02:20
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It also feels real nice to beat up the bosses to the music they all have the writing has some wrinkles, but I was excited to fight everyone for the combination gently caress Em/that music/new job
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Jul 14, 2017 04:46
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Blind Duke posted:It also feels real nice to beat up the bosses to the music they all have Linked Horizon made a beautiful ost, but then again Revo is like a musical genius. Then again the vocalized version is clearly superior cdyoung fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Jul 14, 2017 |
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Jul 14, 2017 09:13
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Entry 47: Sword vs. Shield There's charm to these appropriately named Age of Myths items. Shells containing cosmic powers? No big deal. Did you know there's a fable involving the decapitated head of a magical talking horse offering words of sympathy to the princess protagonist? Get on it, Disney.  The Shieldbearers have large gates blocking passage on either side of Eisen Bridge. Tiz, ready to take on the Swordbearers single-handed, attempts to sneak through.  Datz strolls up.   Corporal Datz! I'm afraid this area's been put under lockdown... I see. Well, we'll just have to take another route, then.Good to see Datz supports Tiz's bloodlust despite his purported mission to take us to the Shieldbearer commander (who is on our side of the gate).  Eisen Bridge. Needs more flags. The Shieldbearer's second gate is partly visible to the northwest. Further west the road continues on, but if we try to go that way:  We're headquartered at the Eisen Bridge now.Only one place left to go.  That's a lot of shields they're bearing.  The vestal's party is escorted right to the top of the ramparts overlooking the bridge. Everything appears quiet at the moment.  You guys'll never figure out what this character's name means.  Datz has already filled me in. It seems we have you to thank for getting Zatz back to us. Much appreciated. You did well to repel the swordmaster for one of your age. I am suitably impressed. With you on our side, we may well turn the tide. It would certainly rally the troops. We did not fight him off. Our opponent withdrew. And we have not come here to join your war. A vestal such as I cannot take part in such conflict. Please do not misunderstand.  You could have been a bit less blunt, Agnès. But I...I... Well, then. To what do we owe the honor of your presence? My task here is to awaken the Fire Crystal. Once that is done, I intend to leave this realm immediately. Oh, so you have come to quell the seething magma in place of the late fire vestal? Exactly. That is why we need your help. Do you know of a way into the temple? We are doing all we can to find one, but we have not found a way through the lava yet. I see... I am sorry we could not be of more help. We will of course do all we can to aid you. A way in shall be found. Of course. The Shieldbearers welcome the vestal and her companions. Feel free to rest your travel-weary bones in town. Forgive us for not being able to lend a hand. Not at all. Leave the fighting to us soldiers. It is our job, after all. .......False alarm, guys. Looks like we're not fighting in this war after all. Who'd have thought?   Wooden shields versus cannons. Either the Shieldbearers have some unseen tricks up their sleeve or the Swordbearers are incredibly, insanely incompetent.  Whether one or both are the case, Commander Goodman seems pretty chill.  The regular soldiers, not so much.  Right? Everyone here loves him, soldiers and townsfolk alike. Respect him, too. He's the reason the Shieldbearers have held together this long. He's the glue. And he practices what he preaches. He's a paragon of self-defense. We never fight to take anything from anybody else. Ever. ...... ...... So, Tiz. Mind if I ask what's got the vestal and Edea all in a bunch? Er, yeah... It's kind of--   Y-yeah? That certainly sounds complicated...Unfortunately, because the 'women are not objects' storyline was optional, none of Ringabel's character development from that carried onward. I commented earlier in the thread that he gets better after Chapter 2, but we're not there yet.  Adventurer's cryptic advice will come in use later.  Sure, it's not like there's any war in the war zone to keep us occupied.   The southwestern edge of the continent features a very impractically placed town.  With equally impractical decorating.  Datz gives a big hearty laugh while Tiz wonders what mad architects build these places.  If it gets any worse, we may have to think about evacuating. Ever since the vestal passed into the light, Mount Karka has been raging without cease. The women of this town must be made of strong stuff to put up with this. I could see myself falling for a strong woman. You might even say I favor them. This is the place I have been seeking! Here we go again... He seems that way until you've heard the same jokes for I'm going on ahead to the commander's residence. Once you've seen the town, you should come and join us. Catch you later, then.Datz takes off.   Logical? No. Badass? Yes.  The path in the lower left can be taken down to the lava's edge, because video game people are tough.  Despite this being the most badass town, the residents are sad.   I've searched day and night since then, but he's nowhere to be found. He's a boy about this tall. Have you seen him?Hartschild hasn't been attacked, so this woman is a refugee from some other place on the continent. What's the chance of her kid making it to safety?  If there were still people unaware of the hot topic for this chapter, I hope by now it's crystal clear.  The Swordbearers have a terrible weapon of mass slaughter. A chemical they call the toxic mist. I spend each day terrified of the air I breathe. I can't imagine fighting...The party's already dealt with a fair number of chemicals. Breathing in all that nidaphyx only made them stronger.  It creates nothing, brings happiness to no man... Why do we persist in this madness? Because both sides have beliefs they can't let go, I suppose. Something so precious that it warrants the deaths of countless innocent people? The world is faced with a crisis dire as it has ever seen, and this is what we are doing? Humans fight to secure peace as they envision it. The trouble is, everyone's vision is different. I fear I cannot understand it... However lofty the ideals of sworld and shield, the fact remains that they are engaged in murder. Wherever people gather, emotions run high, and justice and truth are subjective. Where the majority has reached consensus, it is difficult for any one person to resist. ...... Even so, I don't want to be the sort of person who just accepts all that as a given. Me neither. At the very least, I swear I will take no woman for granted. I'll give my all, always. Aaand there's the sad, strange Ringabel we know and love again.A good time to note that the vestals again appear to be complete pacifists, who were long ago absorbed into and protected by the distinctly non-pacifist Crystal Orthodoxy. Peace seems simple and easy if you've never had to fight for it. Agnès also ignores the fact that the reason so many people are fighting against her and the other vestals is because they think Crystalism is responsible for nature going crazy and peace being disturbed. As Ringabel said: shared goal of saving world, but differing opinion on how to fix it. Of course, as many people in the thread have pointed out, it'd be easier to sympathize with the Eternian side if they weren't also a bunch of bombastic psychopaths. As it is, things are pretty black and white.  War means war supplies, so let's go shopping. New white and time magic, promptly bought out.  Armory's new stock is decent, not great.  There's something wonderful about how Catholic imagery is now used to denote heathen magic potency.  If this were visible in-game, it'd likely be the traditional Final Fantasy white mage robe: white with red triangle pattern on the edges and a cute hood.  Considering how much Wa junk is around I don't think it can be classified as mysterious. More like the meticulously preserved and documented culture of Wa.  A closer view of the town. Off at the left side, below the upper left stairs, the party sifts through some barrels.  Bingo! No one was using this, right? Not like these barrels were left out to go to the front lines of a war or anything. Agnès pockets the elixir with full knowledge it will never be used, not even during the final boss.  The Adventurer is full of good advice. Tell your friends you care about them, everyone. They won't always be around.  Yeah? What if we don't want to?  Agnès insists. Tiz throws out one last delay:   Ooh, right! I've heard of those! You can use those parts to customize your special moves. And what's more, the parts aren't consumed in the process, so you can keep reusing them. Then what are we waiting for? Let's get started right now! It seems there are rare attacks, even among special moves. Oh, really? That's news to me. What sort of thing do you mean, Tiz? I mean staff and rod attacks! They take different parts than all the others, so be sure to try them out!This conversation sounds like an advertising campaign.  Next: Ringabel's lady troubles and long time no see, Council of -- Event Viewer Main Scenario: Eisen Bridge Hartschild Party Chat: Symbol of the Shieldbearers Tragedy Norende's Special Moves Parts D's Journal: Shieldbearer Cdr Daniel Goodman posted:
D's Journal: Eisen Bridge posted:
D's Journal: Town of Hartschild posted:
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Jul 17, 2017 23:57
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Doesn't the name Daniel mean "good man" or something, too? So he's pretty much literally named Good man Goodman?
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Jul 18, 2017 00:14
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Greyarc posted:Unfortunately, because the 'women are not objects' storyline was optional, none of Ringabel's character development from that carried onward. This sort of thing is really starting to feel like the game's biggest weakness. I know they need to have some sidequests, but they could've at least made the main Eternian generals into the crystal guardians rather than locking them behind optional content.
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Jul 18, 2017 00:57
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Hartschild has a pretty good theme to it to
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Jul 18, 2017 00:59
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Greyarc posted:Wooden shields versus cannons. Either the Shieldbearers have some unseen tricks up their sleeve or the Swordbearers are incredibly, insanely incompetent. It's interesting to see the "good guys" actually having the numerical advantage for once. Usually they're the ones who have to figure out how to beat the ravening hordes at a 10-to-1 disadvantage, and sometimes the enemy's better equipped to boot. Hobgoblin2099 posted:Doesn't the name Daniel mean "good man" or something, too? So he's pretty much literally named Good man Goodman?
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Jul 18, 2017 02:24
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Commander Keene posted:Don't the Shieldbearers outnumber the Swordbearers by like 10 or 100 to 1? There's no stat mentioned for overall forces on both sides. The only number we get is the 100,000 killed by the toxic mist (Zatz's dialogue mentioning the event made it sound like there were two massacres, but there was only the one four years ago at the start of the war). What we do know is that the Shieldbearers still hold at least a small advantage in numbers, but it is not nearly so great a difference now due to Shieldbearer forces being wiped out plus the substantial manpower of the Black Blades bolstering the Swordbearer side. Keep in mind, the Shieldbearers were desperate enough to risk sneaking someone off-continent past the Black Blades' navy to get foreign aid, including more soldiers. Despite their initial advantage, the Shieldbearers are losing the sheer bodies game fast. Anyway, the tactical details of Eisen Bridge will be getting explained more later on. Suffice to say, it's about more than just numbers. Greyarc fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Jul 18, 2017 |
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Jul 18, 2017 04:55
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Those wooden shields have wheels and it looks like they can be angled. As everyone knows, even a wooden shield can block a cannon round if it's angled right. Especially if it's silly pre-rifling balls of lead!
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Jul 18, 2017 05:49
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The way that dude was expecting the Vestal to dump elemental power all over his enemies - have the Vestals fought in wars before?
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Jul 18, 2017 12:44
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Glazius posted:The way that dude was expecting the Vestal to dump elemental power all over his enemies - have the Vestals fought in wars before? Soooooo
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Jul 18, 2017 16:02
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I have the mental image of Azula fighting against the Swordbearers now.
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Jul 18, 2017 17:58
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Pre- or post-breakdown?
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Jul 18, 2017 18:04
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