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Hazdoc posted:More T7 ships now have RADAR. At or below T7 the smoke cloud is effectively inviolable, and the only reason people ever approach a smoke screen at all at those tiers is that the ships that use them tend to have really anemic damage output and a low chance of actually doing something about it (RN CL's up to and including the Leander, DD's). e: correction, Flint doesn't have radar, I'm trippin ballz (see below) TheFluff fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Jul 20, 2017 |
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Jul 20, 2017 18:04
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TheFluff posted:Take Superintendent before DE in my opinion, one more smoke is going to do more for you than higher fire chance. IFHE on that ship is monstrous though, you go from relying almost entirely on fire damage to making GBS threads out 3k damage per salvo easily. To add to this, I now skip concealment expert for IFHE on ships that benefit from it. It is a massive increase in your ability to do damage.
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Jul 20, 2017 18:12
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HFX posted:To add to this, I now skip concealment expert for IFHE on ships that benefit from it. It is a massive increase in your ability to do damage. Excep the atlanta where the extra range of aft is still more beneficial to ifhe. But definately ifhe afterwards of course.
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Jul 20, 2017 18:15
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Will people be on discord later? Gonna be looking for competent people to get more then 3 stars with.
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Jul 20, 2017 18:27
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Speaking of radar, Flamu just stuck the surveillance radar mod on the Des Moines and it gave a radar of 56s duration
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Jul 20, 2017 18:29
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^  Des Moines with the Radar time upgrade module gets a 56s active time lol. TheFluff posted:Oh, come on now. There are four T7 ships with radar: Belfast, Atlanta, Indianapolis and Flint. All of them are premiums, only the first two are actually played to a meaningful degree in randoms, and the Belfast is the only one that has a realistic chance of regularly using its radar offensively. Real radar play starts at tier 8 with the Chapayev - the New Orleans simply doesn't have enough damage output to be able to effectively use its radar, despite the long duration. Neither the Chapayev nor the NO sees all that much play in randoms though, so really, radar only really starts becoming relevant at tier 9 with the Baltimore and Missouri (almost nobody actually uses the radar on the Donskoi because getting in range to do so is not only really hard since it literally gets outspotted by same tier battleships, it's also rather suicidal). Flint doesn't have radar as far as I know. Or maybe it does and you have to give up smoke for it (so basically no).
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Jul 20, 2017 18:29
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 And a Minotaur with 120s smoke and 120s hydro Also Flint gets smoke instead of radar, no option to take it back.
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Jul 20, 2017 18:31
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Blindeye posted:The tier 10 has six guns and is a 1915 design, that's what I mean. As much fun as 20.1 inch guns would be, WG seems dead set against bringing them in. Simple, adjust it down to the 18"/45 guns it would've carried in reality.
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Jul 20, 2017 18:47
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Monarch crisis slightly averted anyway, it's a tier 7 premium and KGV remains at tier 8, as per the current game files... though having said that, Monarch is currently a literal KGV clone right down to the 14" guns, so changes to come
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Jul 20, 2017 19:05
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Anyone on EU up for doing Dunkirk? Pubbies are godawful, go afk, drive into the coast, drive into minefields, etc e: nvm, 5-stared it with pubbies, not gonna bother with it now TheFluff fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Jul 20, 2017 |
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Jul 20, 2017 19:21
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These pubbies are hilarious at dunkirk. It is so stupidly simple, but these guys are figuring out new ways to die. Like, they figure since thye can't aim properly at the speed boats, they'll just charge them. The thing is, the set that spawns on the port side just inside the narrows are inside the minefield. The pubbies ran intot he field anyway to get close. I'm so glad these people were not the ones captaining the boats during this rescue irl. It would have been a hilarious shitshow footnote to the war.
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Jul 20, 2017 19:43
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If they "fix" smoke like that they better fix British cruisers, because I don't see how a Neptune can do anything good without smoke.
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Jul 20, 2017 21:16
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Gonna laugh a lot if they take a big heaping poo poo on DDs ( again ) because the Kutuzov and British cruisers can make trouble with smoke. Maybe make it so that only cruiser+ guns disturb smoke, or make it so battleships can't hide in it? It isn't even like they're that hard to deal with unless it is some bullshit like the Mino or the Belfast, or a platoon of people rotating their smokes.
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Jul 20, 2017 22:01
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Warbadger posted:Pretty sure he suggested BB's not be smoke-able. Not ships around BB's, not Russian cruisers, and not removing smoke in the vicinity of a BB when it fires. If a BB cannot fire while in smoke without himself becoming visible it would not be a buff to BB's. I was talking about what WG are/were actually testing - other people could sail into your smoke and blow it away with firing. Seems like it's been discarded anyway though.
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Jul 20, 2017 22:26
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They do need to do something about smoke though, it's retarded going into a match just to have your entire screen filled with clouds of smoke for the first 2-3 minutes of a fight. However, if they nerf smoke they need to buff the poo poo out of DD's and Cruisers. I'd love to see Battleship main gun damage significantly reduced against DDs, while BB secondaries all go HE with ranged buffs. Cruisers should all get repair, lowered citadels and a bit thicker armor so they don't get bullied by DDs, and DD's should all have longer range/a bit more powerful guns. The torp cancer meta blew so I'm happy to see it gone though. Carriers should either be removed or have their torp drop range doubled because gently caress carriers. Though, all I ever play anymore is my Tirpitz because everything else is lame. All I want to do is roll into a fight spraying secondaries everywhere and sometimes hitting poo poo with my main guns.
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Jul 20, 2017 22:28
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JuffoWup posted:These pubbies are hilarious at dunkirk. It is so stupidly simple, but these guys are figuring out new ways to die. Like, they figure since thye can't aim properly at the speed boats, they'll just charge them. The thing is, the set that spawns on the port side just inside the narrows are inside the minefield. The pubbies ran intot he field anyway to get close. I'm so glad these people were not the ones captaining the boats during this rescue irl. It would have been a hilarious shitshow footnote to the war. Yeah. Had a player blow up in the minefield near me, and I got to play "I'm not touching you!" with a loving mine I could only see on the sonar thing while I literally carried his group to safety. If there is one good thing from this operation, I learned a bit about the actual history of the real thing and some of the ships that took part when I looked up some info myself. One of the ships in particular stuck out at me, the Medway Queen, which is actually present as one of the escorted ships in the operation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PS_Medway_Queen A paddleboat steamer made the most crossings, saved 7000 people over those crossings (including the soldiers and crew of a ship that wrecked nearby her on one trip), made the final crossing with a damaged wheel, and with only 2 machine guns and a 12-pounder gun managed 3 confirmed aircraft kills. Received 4 awards for gallantry and survives to this day. Not bad for a civilian ship.
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Jul 20, 2017 22:47
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Cippalippus posted:If they "fix" smoke like that they better fix British cruisers, because I don't see how a Neptune can do anything good without smoke. Yeah, such a change seems like a gigantic "gently caress you" to the RN CL line. It's entirely possible it's because I'm very bad at botes (in which case I'll happily drop my objection) but in my experience a Neptune out of smoke is generally easy pickings. So if they can't hide effectively, then what are Neptunes (and other RN CLs) supposed to do?
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Jul 20, 2017 23:10
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq9EsBEYQo0 It is hard to completely tell, but it appears that the torp drop pattern for the graf zepplin is the same as the enterprise. The video is flamu's play from earlier today as mentioned by another goon several posts back.
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Jul 20, 2017 23:35
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Soup Inspector posted:Yeah, such a change seems like a gigantic "gently caress you" to the RN CL line. It's entirely possible it's because I'm very bad at botes (in which case I'll happily drop my objection) but in my experience a Neptune out of smoke is generally easy pickings. So if they can't hide effectively, then what are Neptunes (and other RN CLs) supposed to do? I honestly think the only reason people see the RN CL's as non-viable without smoke is because they base their playstyle and positioning on it, so when they don't have it they're in deep trouble because they've positioned themselves somewhere where no other cruiser would go. Yes, they're weak without the smoke, but there's nothing magical about them that makes them less playable than other cruisers without the smoke. Sure they're lightly armored, but that goes for a lot of cruisers. The Russians do fine without it, for example, despite their gigantic turn radiuses and garbage concealment. Same with the French. The main problem for the RN CL's is that they don't have access to DoT in the form of fire, so to be on-par in terms of damage they have to shoot more, and that's what the smoke is there for. If you removed the smoke and simply thickened the bow/stern and hull plating one step (currently it's 16mm all around which gets overmatched by everything, that's why they get citadelled from every angle - most other high tier cruisers have 25-27mm) and maybe gave them a bit more range, I think they'd be fine. Problem is, without the gimmick there's no real reason to play them over anything else, so that's not gonna happen. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Jul 20, 2017 |
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Jul 20, 2017 23:36
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TheFluff posted:I honestly think the only reason people see the RN CL's as non-viable without smoke is because they base their playstyle and positioning on it, so when they don't have it they're in deep trouble because they've positioned themselves somewhere where no other cruiser would go. Yes, they're weak without the smoke, but there's nothing magical about them that makes them less playable than other cruisers without the smoke. Sure they're lightly armored, but that goes for a lot of cruisers. The Russians do fine without it, for example, despite their gigantic turn radiuses and garbage concealment. Same with the French. The main problem for the RN CL's is that they don't have access to DoT in the form of fire, so to be on-par in terms of damage they have to shoot more, and that's what the smoke is there for. If you removed the smoke and simply thickened the bow/stern and hull plating one step (currently it's 16mm all around which gets overmatched by everything, that's why they get citadelled from every angle - most other high tier cruisers have 25-27mm) and maybe gave them a bit more range, I think they'd be fine. Problem is, without the gimmick there's no real reason to play them over anything else, so that's not gonna happen. Or you could get good and be like yuro by ditching the smoke for radar. I was wrong about the drop pattern on the graf btw. Flamu talks about it a bit later, but it looks to be a really messy thing.
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Jul 20, 2017 23:44
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TheFluff posted:If you removed the smoke and simply thickened the bow/stern and hull plating one step (currently it's 16mm all around which gets overmatched by everything, that's why they get citadelled from every angle - most other high tier cruisers have 25-27mm) and maybe gave them a bit more range, I think they'd be fine. Problem is, without the gimmick there's no real reason to play them over anything else, so that's not gonna happen. What's really hilarious is that because it's 152's all the way up the line, they still have to have good ROF even if you give them HE, so their gimmick goes from "Set no fires ever" to "Set fires on everything within 15-20 seconds". Well, at least for the Minotaur. It might take 30 seconds for the Neptune. Rorac fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Jul 20, 2017 |
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Jul 20, 2017 23:44
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The speculated smoke changes are weird and strange to me.
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Jul 21, 2017 00:25
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TheFluff posted:Oh, come on now. There are 3 of the 9 CAs at T7 have RADAR. One of them is undisputed in how overpowered it is, and when a ship is overpowered, you MUST assume it will also be a major part of the meta. Prior to T7, there are no "meta" ships that carry RADAR, because they do not exist. T7 has Belfast, and the Atlanta is a very popular choice (a lot of people have one). The Indy is also getting buffed to have a very long range RADAR, by the way. T8 has the New Orleans and Chapayev. The New Orleans suffers a bit from not having a lot of firepower, but its RADAR is pretty long duration and it sees use in the utility role as an AA boat. The New Orleans will very rarely be alone, so it doesn't need to have ridiculous DPM to threaten DDs with its RADAR. On the other hand, the Chapayev has always been a meta pick at T8, and continues to be. It boasts a higher average damage than the loving ATAGO. It sees plenty of use, even if its not a Kutuzov. Its RADAR is brought to help deal with said Kutuzovs... being able to deal with DDs is also a bonus. I'm also not sure how I feel about "balancing" a mechanic around how infrequently you're going to see a ship. CVs are a loving nightmare of balance due to their frequency... RADAR at T7 should not be excluded. Especially as if you actually played T7 Ranked you'd know just how "infrequently" you saw RADAR cruisers. Hint: it was every match. And finally, the dumbest part of the problem. Gutting smoke mechanics like this actually creates a new problem at T8+. The Brit CLs will turn into RADAR ships! So yeah.
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Jul 21, 2017 01:11
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Just to be clear, I don't think I like its current rumored form either. I just think smoke needs a rework in general.
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Jul 21, 2017 01:12
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TheFluff posted:Just to be clear, I don't think I like its current rumored form either. I just think smoke needs a rework in general. Why?
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Jul 21, 2017 01:27
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Hazdoc posted:Why? Better question: How?
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Jul 21, 2017 01:34
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Hazdoc posted:T7 has Belfast, and the Atlanta is a very popular choice (a lot of people have one). The Indy is also getting buffed to have a very long range RADAR, by the way. The key to being able to use radar offensively is being able to get in range to actually do so without getting murdered. You can use the Missouri's radar offensively because it's a battleship, but doing it with the Donskoi is a quite risky business, despite them having essentially the same concealment and the Donskoi's radar range being two full kilometers longer (and the Donskoi also does 38 knots with the speed flag, which helps a lot). The Atlanta can almost do it, but unless you're Yuro you're unlikely to get away with it because it's slow, rather non-threatening to most things that aren't DD's and made of paper. Same thing with the Indianapolis; even after the buff it maxes out at 10.7km detection and while it's tankier than a Pensacola, it's not by very much. Also, nobody has it or plays it and I doubt that will change. If you consider the different anime Myokos the same ship, it's the second least played T7 ship on EU in the last two weeks - it has slightly more than twice as many games as the Flint, which is the least played ship with less than 300 games. e: Hazdoc posted:On the other hand, the Chapayev has always been a meta pick at T8, and continues to be. It boasts a higher average damage than the loving ATAGO. It sees plenty of use, even if its not a Kutuzov. Its RADAR is brought to help deal with said Kutuzovs... being able to deal with DDs is also a bonus. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Jul 21, 2017 |
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Jul 21, 2017 01:43
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Hazdoc posted:Why? I thought I outlined that in my first post on the subject, but to sum it up: - It encourages passive gameplay - most pubbies just turn around when they see a smoke cloud, and for good reasons - It has no counterplay unless your ship just happens to have the right button to press - It's far too black-and-white - either nobody has the magic antidote, in which case one or two ships can lock down an entire flank or farm an absurd amount of damage for free because nobody can shoot back at them, or someone does and uses it, in which case the user either just dies then and there, or takes a bunch of damage and wastes one of their very limited resources - It's boring, for many different reasons Simply put, it's an inherently unbalanced mechanic. It's a wayyyyy too powerful self-buff for the ships that have it (seriously, it's effectively an invulnerability field that lasts for minutes where the only downside is that you have to be stationary while using it - the inability to see out of it is relatively minor as long as you're not completely solo) and it's incredibly obnoxious to deal with for everyone who doesn't have the counter-mechanic. Stealth firing was removed entirely for exactly the same reasons as you could use to argue in favor of removing smoke. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Jul 21, 2017 |
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Jul 21, 2017 01:56
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Yeah, smoke as it stands seems like a really lovely mechanic that encourages alot of lovely gameplay. Watched a few of Flamu's streams and highlight videos and there's alot of just sitting around in smoke.
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Jul 21, 2017 02:07
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Most of the ships sitting in smoke sit in that smoke because the alternative is 'running away from battleships forever' or 'get snapped in half by an 16" bitch slap launched from outside your range"
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Jul 21, 2017 02:10
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Do people not play US or IJN cruisers anymore? You don't need to have smoke to have fun in cruisers. The Donskoi and Baltimore are currently my two favorite ships.
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Jul 21, 2017 02:18
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TheFluff posted:Do people not play US or IJN cruisers anymore? You don't need to have smoke to have fun in cruisers. The Donskoi and Baltimore are currently my two favorite ships. French cruisers too. At that range most people won't even try to hit you.
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Jul 21, 2017 02:51
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I'm still largely in favour of a 3 DD cap per game with 2 per division at maximum, but a rework of smoke requires a rework of the mechanics that can detect through it. By that, I mean RADAR and Hydroacoustic should stop going through landmasses.
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Jul 21, 2017 02:54
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Heartcatch posted:I'm still largely in favour of a 3 DD cap per game with 2 per division at maximum, but a rework of smoke requires a rework of the mechanics that can detect through it. By that, I mean RADAR and Hydroacoustic should stop going through landmasses. I'd counter that there needs to be a rework on overpen mechanics as well. That way, we can say more dynamic play by battleship players instead of just loading ap and never using he.
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Jul 21, 2017 03:00
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I hope the person who put the Okinawa map into the game is hit by a bus or something. Making a worse map then Tears of the Desert or Ocean shouldn't be a goal.
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Jul 21, 2017 03:03
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JuffoWup posted:dynamic play by battleship players This is the funniest thing I've read in a while. These people wouldn't be dynamic if you strapped them to a turbine.
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Jul 21, 2017 03:04
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:Most of the ships sitting in smoke sit in that smoke because the alternative is 'running away from battleships forever' or 'get snapped in half by an 16" bitch slap launched from outside your range" Taking away the reliable smoke cover might get them buffed in ways that actually make them fun to play as and against. Heartcatch posted:I mean RADAR and Hydroacoustic should stop going through landmasses. And yes, definitely. Regular LoS rules, but that they cut through smoke seems like a no brainer.
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Jul 21, 2017 03:19
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You say that, but it's been years.
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Jul 21, 2017 06:44
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Crosspost from Reddit. Sums up my Dunk'Kirk experiences. http://imgur.com/a/PjhXy
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Jul 21, 2017 06:45
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TheFluff posted:I thought I outlined that in my first post on the subject, but to sum it up: Hoo boy. quote:Passive Gameplay quote:No counterplay without RADAR Bonus to if you are carrying a scout plane... it makes figuring out the range simple, with the tilted up angle. Scout plane Nagatoes were one of the big contenders in Ranked Tier 7, due to how simple it was for them to blap a Fiji/Belfast who was just sitting stationary in their smoke hammering away. quote:Binary gameplay quote:Stealth firing By the way, what do you think of CAs like the Cleveland using terrain to fire on people while remaining invisible or invulnerable to return fire? Its literally the same thing as smoke... the CA remains mostly stationary, and is protected by a thing that has no "counterplay". Smoke is just terrain, except torpedoes can go through it, you can shoot through it, and its deployed on demand. Do islands also promote passive gameplay?
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Jul 21, 2017 06:48
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