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yea that's ML but OTOH you can still believe that and support the praxis view of mass organization because how da fuq the proletariat gonna dictate poo poo if no one in your org knows someone who like nannies or does elderly home care for a living.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:15
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to reverse gentrification of inner cities, empty the prisons, and lets all overthrow the police in a bastille day-esque peoples revolution
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Jul 21, 2017 21:17
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It doesn't matter if it's enforced or not. If you go to join and you're presented with "okay what we want to do is take 1% of your income. If you can't do that now that's cool but, you know, someday" you're going to have a lot of second thoughts about joining that organization. An avowed Communist or a long time union member might go "ah yes, of course" because they're more familiar with this model, but other people aren't going to have a clear enough idea of what they're getting into to want to make that commitment. This is particularly true of working class people who have to think long and hard about every money decision. If there were a shitload of hard core Leftists in the US, it might be a good strategy. But that's not what we have -- we have a lot of liberals pushed out of the Democratic party and a lot of basically apolitical poor people getting sick of being pushed around. Even if in practice it's not enforced or enforceable, it limits the size of your addressable pool of prospective members. It will have the affect of slowing growth.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:20
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:If I am more of a leftcom or anarchist but I think the only way to get there is a vanguard party and dictatorship of the proletariat am I just a ML Have you considered that you might, in fact, be a Trotskyist? Like I know it's a bit of a dirty word what with all the splitting and newspapers, but...
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Jul 21, 2017 21:25
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the praxis plan allows people to eventually get up to 1% if they want, but sets the recommended monthly due at $10 a month, with a the current need-based yearly low does of $24 preserved. It's much more workable.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:26
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ChickenOfTomorrow posted:if you consider yourself an anarchist, LibCom, AnCom, LibSoc, Communalist, Democratic Confederalist, Apoist or other anti-authoritarian leftist, the NEW DSA LibSoc caucus is interested in you! Oh hey, good poo poo. I saw the FB page that didn't really do anything, but I got on the listserv a couple days ago and it looks like it might be a thing.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:28
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Impermanent posted:the praxis plan allows people to eventually get up to 1% if they want, but sets the recommended monthly due at $10 a month, with a the current need-based yearly low does of $24 preserved. It's much more workable. that makes a lot of sense and probably would make us more money overall than a flat 1%
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Jul 21, 2017 21:34
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Let's see how this dues plan affects me 1% of *looks at income* -20,500 dollars The DSA is gonna give me money!
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Jul 21, 2017 21:34
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Phi230 posted:Let's see how this dues plan affects me hopefully yeah, in a slightly more indirect way
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Jul 21, 2017 21:50
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:If I am more of a leftcom or anarchist but I think the only way to get there is a vanguard party and dictatorship of the proletariat am I just a ML Read bordiga
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Jul 21, 2017 22:23
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Impermanent posted:they're slates of people running for the national political committee with different visions of where to take DSA's new growth. Praxis is oriented around organizing a mass movement by investing in chapter's ability to local organizing, while Momentum wants to take us towards a more cadre approach with less members that are more active. lol wait so Momentum wants the exact opposite of what its name claims? This is an interesting interpretation because other than agreeing about Praxis having an organizing focus, I came away with the complete opposite impression of each's goals. But maybe I need to read their platforms more closely!
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Jul 21, 2017 23:01
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Baby Babbeh posted:It doesn't matter if it's enforced or not. If you go to join and you're presented with "okay what we want to do is take 1% of your income. If you can't do that now that's cool but, you know, someday" you're going to have a lot of second thoughts about joining that organization. An avowed Communist or a long time union member might go "ah yes, of course" because they're more familiar with this model, but other people aren't going to have a clear enough idea of what they're getting into to want to make that commitment. 1% is more than my union dues. DSA is cool and all, but I'd like a few big wins before I put up that kind of cash.
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Jul 21, 2017 23:12
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Ruzihm posted:Read bordiga Actually doing that now thanks.
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Jul 22, 2017 00:06
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Not pleased that we are endorsing milquetoast liberal Khader El-Yateem to New York city council unless he's some kinda secret socialist.
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Jul 22, 2017 00:43
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Baby Babbeh posted:It doesn't matter if it's enforced or not. If you go to join and you're presented with "okay what we want to do is take 1% of your income. If you can't do that now that's cool but, you know, someday" you're going to have a lot of second thoughts about joining that organization. An avowed Communist or a long time union member might go "ah yes, of course" because they're more familiar with this model, but other people aren't going to have a clear enough idea of what they're getting into to want to make that commitment. This is particularly true of working class people who have to think long and hard about every money decision. 200% agree. I would probably give up trying to organize and very likely not even renew myself if that happened - if only because I think it would outright kill the DSA's ascendancy as something useful outside a few places BrainParasite posted:1% is more than my union dues. DSA is cool and all, but I'd like a few big wins before I put up that kind of cash. also this... I'm not union but one of the people I've been working on to get to join is, and this is more than his union dues as well
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Jul 22, 2017 01:15
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SomeMathGuy posted:How fast do you folks need a turnaround for those of us that aren't delegates? I have to dig up that confirmation email. I'm not in a position to know, but if you're not a delegate i doubt it's urgent.
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Jul 22, 2017 01:32
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:If I am more of a leftcom or anarchist but I think the only way to get there is a vanguard party and dictatorship of the proletariat am I just a ML Even the russian and spanish ancoms came to that conclusion to a limited extent (the platform is all about that)
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Jul 22, 2017 03:00
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I think praxis and momentum both have good ideas and y'all are misrepresenting momentum lop
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Jul 22, 2017 04:33
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assuming good faith is hard 
ChickenOfTomorrow has issued a correction as of 14:08 on Jul 22, 2017 |
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Jul 22, 2017 14:05
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if DSA were a real socialist org dues would be 100% + a toothbrush
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Jul 22, 2017 16:31
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Smash vs wither, good debate to have about the state. I like our party, comrades.
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Jul 22, 2017 16:53
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they are not nor should be mutually exclusive goals and also *bong rip* poo poo, we should just like, tell our managers we don't need them anymore
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Jul 22, 2017 18:11
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Huragok posted:they are not nor should be mutually exclusive goals and also Obviously we should do both simultaneously via the establishment of democratic workers' councils.
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Jul 22, 2017 18:44
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SomeMathGuy posted:Obviously we should do both simultaneously via the establishment of democratic workers' councils. I sometimes feel silly saying it but the idea of each individual work place being both a democratic economic and political unit is extremely my poo poo. *sigh* I am a tankie
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Jul 23, 2017 14:18
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Larry Parrish posted:I sometimes feel silly saying it but the idea of each individual work place being both a democratic economic and political unit is extremely my poo poo. *sigh* I am a tankie What's your opinion on the Holomodor
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Jul 23, 2017 14:59
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Business Gorillas posted:What's your opinion on the Holomodor If you feelin bougouise I feel bad for you son I got 99 problems but kulaks ain't one
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Jul 23, 2017 15:06
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Larry Parrish posted:I sometimes feel silly saying it but the idea of each individual work place being both a democratic economic and political unit is extremely my poo poo. *sigh* I am a tankie i think this makes you a syndicalist actually
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Jul 23, 2017 17:11
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the bitcoin of weed posted:i think this makes you a syndicalist actually It depends on whether you think the party should be a propagandizing apparatus or an actual dedicated revolutionary force unto itself - do you commingle amongst the workers who must ultimately organize themselves, or do you lead them directly? It's seemingly subtle but in practice I find it cuts right to the heart of the decentralist vs. centralist dichotomy. But, yes, there's nothing inherently tankie about honest-to-god soviets, as paradoxical as that may sound given the appropriation of the term. Check out Anton Pannekoek's Workers' Councils.
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Jul 23, 2017 17:35
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Ace of Baes posted:I think praxis and momentum both have good ideas and y'all are misrepresenting momentum lop Knowing some of the people involved personally, I think the takes above are dead-on re: Momentum
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Jul 23, 2017 17:50
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the bitcoin of weed posted:i think this makes you a syndicalist actually It's all tankie to the liberals.
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Jul 23, 2017 19:28
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Agnosticnixie posted:It's all tankie to the liberals. Divorced from name recognition (and even with if you're talking to Republicans) Franklin D. loving Roosevelt is a tankie to the liberals in this country. To a certain extent it's not worth worrying about their takes on the matter. SomeMathGuy has issued a correction as of 20:00 on Jul 23, 2017 |
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Jul 23, 2017 19:52
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unbutthurtable posted:Knowing some of the people involved personally, I think the takes above are dead-on re: Momentum momentum is pushing for monthly dues, which already exist, as an option to be pushed, in their statement they say they'dkeep an annual dues for people with low income, they're just looking at the fact that the national cannot handle the growth and the budget wont be able to either, if we could hire full time organizers it would take a ton of the financial strain off of a shitload of members in small chapters or OCs who are bearing 100% of costs to try and grow their DSA into a 50+ people chapter
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Jul 24, 2017 03:05
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Ace of Baes posted:momentum is pushing for monthly dues, which already exist, as an option to be pushed, in their statement they say they'dkeep an annual dues for people with low income, they're just looking at the fact that the national cannot handle the growth and the budget wont be able to either, if we could hire full time organizers it would take a ton of the financial strain off of a shitload of members in small chapters or OCs who are bearing 100% of costs to try and grow their DSA into a 50+ people chapter i spend a lot of money on DSA
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Jul 24, 2017 13:06
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Discourse Collective did an episode with two candidates from Momentum going over their platform: https://soundcloud.com/discoursecollective/episode-51
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Jul 24, 2017 16:20
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Ace of Baes posted:momentum is pushing for monthly dues, which already exist, as an option to be pushed, in their statement they say they'dkeep an annual dues for people with low income, they're just looking at the fact that the national cannot handle the growth and the budget wont be able to either, if we could hire full time organizers it would take a ton of the financial strain off of a shitload of members in small chapters or OCs who are bearing 100% of costs to try and grow their DSA into a 50+ people chapter honest q: what're the chances these professional organizers go anywhere but the existing big city chapters?
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Jul 24, 2017 18:28
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jarofpiss posted:i spend a lot of money on DSA i do too, it sucks
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Jul 24, 2017 19:37
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I went past too many posts, so if you requested the title and didn't get it just post again TIA
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Jul 24, 2017 19:38
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big black turnout posted:honest q: what're the chances these professional organizers go anywhere but the existing big city chapters? id imagine they'd probably distribute them by state with some organizers taking more than one state if its like ND and SD for example.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:38
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Ace of Baes posted:id imagine they'd probably distribute them by state with some organizers taking more than one state if its like ND and SD for example. sounds like a terrible plan imo, one organizer for both ND and SD would be hilariously overworked if they attempt to do anything outside the capitals.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:40
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professional organizer could also go from city to city for 3-6 months at a time taking emerging DSA's and growing them into fleshed out chapters with leadership and responsibilities delegated properly and balanced, and then continuing to check on them remotely after going to the next city/town
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Jul 24, 2017 19:41
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