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resurgam40 posted:They ARE non-binary! If Lion is the perfect version of Beatrice (as they are implied to be), then it seems that they genuinely DO NOT CARE about gender, and that is remarkable. That is great because gender doesn't matter, and if I were a praying man, I would pray for the day when everyone realizes that and minds their own Ps and Qs. And if this is true... then does that mean that Battler, holder of all the secrets, knows about Beato's non-binary nature and is 100% OK with it? In a world where too many people still get beaten to death, flung from their homes, or driven to suicide on a daily basis for not conforming to one gender or another, that is huge. That is important, with a capital I, and that alone would justify this story's existence. Given the strongly patriarchal nature of the Ushiromiya family and how toxic that is, Lion not being easily read as a man or a woman might actually be a commentary on gender roles in Japan more than a specific indication that Lion identifies as NB, but I think there's another important factor here. Lion is a projection by Yamada of what they WANT to be, right? 'If I hadn't been thrown off a cliff, everything would be happy and fine, if I was just accepted, I would have been fine.' But given the relative isolation of Yamada being (presumably) raised in an orphanage in Japan in the 70s and then spending most of their life working for an extremely traditional family with strict gender roles and any deviation from that being harshly punished by Kinzo in the form of verbal and emotional abuse to the people around him, I'm not sure Yamada really has the vocabulary or context to talk about gender vs sex and trans people, including nb people. So with that in mind it feels like it's pretty hard to tell whether Lion is a projection of Yamada being NB, or whether they're a projection of Yamada being fed up with gender roles, or whether them being androgynous is Yamada being insecure (it's pretty strongly implied Yamada's breasts never developed, right?), or if Yamada is a trans woman who doesn't really get that she can still be a woman without having been in an accident but can't bear to make Lion unambigiously masculine, or some other scenario I haven't thought of. So with this in mind I think that while Ryukishi07 knows what he's going for and COULD answer these questions surrounding Yamada, Lion, and the psychology behind Kanon and Shannon's gender presentation, I think he won't do so in Umineko's narrative itself because it strikes me as pretty likely that Yamada themself doesn't have a firm answer, they just know what upsets them. ...most of this isn't really related to your comment, I've just been thinking about it a lot and it kinda all came out. Sorry. PetraCore fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Jul 22, 2017 |
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Jul 21, 2017 23:57
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkkB5M72_1Q
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Jul 22, 2017 00:09
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Man, I already needed therapy before this thread. And I forget, who's Yamada?
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Jul 22, 2017 00:09
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bman in 2288 posted:Man, I already needed therapy before this thread. And I forget, who's Yamada?
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Jul 22, 2017 00:13
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It's what we decided to call the real person behind Beatrice, Shannon, and Kanon, since we suspect Sayo is also a fake name.
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Jul 22, 2017 00:14
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Although it feels like Lion is probably the name Kinzo gave Yamada, if Yamada ever learned it, but that's also pretty likely not the name they identify by. ...I wonder if they even identify by any one single name, though. Identity blurring is kind of, uh, a theme.
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Jul 22, 2017 00:18
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PetraCore posted:lots o words Uh huh. uh huh! That all feels really right! It truly does frrl like ambiguity is the point here, and that Lion's refusal to confirm one way or another is their way to rebel against a perception that is both toxic and foolish... and that broke every one of Lion's aunts and uncles, or their children, in some way or another. Maybe that's the thing that truly impresses me.
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Jul 22, 2017 00:48
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resurgam40 posted:Uh huh. uh huh! That all feels really right! It truly does frrl like ambiguity is the point here, and that Lion's refusal to confirm one way or another is their way to rebel against a perception that is both toxic and foolish... and that broke every one of Lion's aunts and uncles, or their children, in some way or another. Maybe that's the thing that truly impresses me. Yeah! Gendering isn't always a bad thing but in the context of, like, the Ushiromiya family and the entire story of Umineko, gender expectations and restrictions have always, always been something that breaks the characters involved. It's pretty obvious how it messed up Eva and Rosa, but there's a lot to be said about Krauss and Natsuhi too, and how they're both people who genuinely love each other and have their strengths and weaknesses but the gender expectations both of society and of the regressive Umineko family in specific forces them into the role they're bad at. Krauss is a bad businessman but I actually think he'd be pretty good at running a household, for example? Meanwhile Natsuhi has the sense needed for business (probably best in combination with Krauss' generally good instincts but taking over for his poor timing and nerves), but she's been pretty consistently shown as bad at household management. Or rather, she organizes things well, but she's a very cruel and abusive boss, although part of that might be projection since the person behind Shannon and Kanon knows she pushed them and an elderly servant off a cliff, so there's some definite bias there. But when Krauss and Natsuhi accept and raise Lion as their own child, Lion is able to break the toxic expectations that they weren't able to, and that Jessica isn't able to.
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Jul 22, 2017 01:01
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PetraCore posted:Yeah! Gendering isn't always a bad thing but in the context of, like, the Ushiromiya family and the entire story of Umineko, gender expectations and restrictions have always, always been something that breaks the characters involved. It's pretty obvious how it messed up Eva and Rosa, but there's a lot to be said about Krauss and Natsuhi too, and how they're both people who genuinely love each other and have their strengths and weaknesses but the gender expectations both of society and of the regressive Umineko family in specific forces them into the role they're bad at. Krauss is a bad businessman but I actually think he'd be pretty good at running a household, for example? Meanwhile Natsuhi has the sense needed for business (probably best in combination with Krauss' generally good instincts but taking over for his poor timing and nerves), but she's been pretty consistently shown as bad at household management. Or rather, she organizes things well, but she's a very cruel and abusive boss, although part of that might be projection since the person behind Shannon and Kanon knows she pushed them and an elderly servant off a cliff, so there's some definite bias there. Only because Kinzo raised Lion for the explicit purpose of being an heir.
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Jul 22, 2017 01:56
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bman in 2288 posted:Only because Kinzo raised Lion for the explicit purpose of being an heir. So, I don't know, maybe as Arc 7 goes along we'll learn more about Lion's home situation, but it feels like this is supposed to be Lion starting from a point of being an unpolished fantasy Bernkastel patched into a situation with dopplegangers of the actual, messed up Ushiromiya family, and this arc will be in part about Lion developing from there? Like I think Lion has the force of will and the charisma and the affection of the people around them to go 'hey I don't want to make my gender a big deal' and have people respect that, but also partially the reason they have these tools in the first place is because the person who came up with them didn't? Like Lion is really sweet and I like them a lot but to me they also represent the absolute hopelessness of deciding the only happy potential your life has is if a thing that already happened when you were an infant didn't happen. I don't know if I'm articulating this right and I feel like I'm talking too much.
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Jul 22, 2017 02:15
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The 'culprit' who can kill everyone at 24:00 on October 5th, no matter where they are. It's possible to make a certain hypothesis for that time. You might call that the other treasure of the Golden Land." I can guess what this is. Key is this, one treasure is the gold from the sub, a military sub. Battler was right about their being bombs on the island.
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Jul 22, 2017 02:25
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DLord posted:The 'culprit' who can kill everyone at 24:00 on October 5th, no matter where they are. It's possible to make a certain hypothesis for that time. You might call that the other treasure of the Golden Land." Bombs in a submarine sandwich.
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Jul 22, 2017 04:18
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PetraCore posted:Like Lion is really sweet and I like them a lot but to me they also represent the absolute hopelessness of deciding the only happy potential your life has is if a thing that already happened when you were an infant didn't happen. I don't know if I'm articulating this right and I feel like I'm talking too much. Yeah, I definitely get a Matrix-esque "this is how you see yourself" vibe from Lion. Which is why I'm both excited and afraid to see Yamada as Yamada in the next scene. Will it be them in the flesh, or another projection? Will we ever see them as they really were, or is that a futile question in itself? edit: definitely contemplating an effortpost on the Real as embodied by Yamada, once a few things get confirmed. I am so sorry in advance witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Jul 22, 2017 |
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Jul 22, 2017 05:22
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Petra, you have great posts and I'm enjoying them!  I'm getting a lot of different angles to consider from this discussion.
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Jul 22, 2017 05:46
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resurgam40 posted:Uh huh. uh huh! That all feels really right! It truly does frrl like ambiguity is the point here, and that Lion's refusal to confirm one way or another is their way to rebel against a perception that is both toxic and foolish... and that broke every one of Lion's aunts and uncles, or their children, in some way or another. Maybe that's the thing that truly impresses me. I don't really agree here. Lion does not appear to care too much about Gender Roles, but he seems to me they do identify as one. But are decently annoyed people can't tell at a glance. Thats why Lion said "People ask me that and I give the same irritated answer, "which do you think." Bern is just deliberately obscuring how Lion's parents and sister refer to them.
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Jul 22, 2017 06:04
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witchcore ricepunk posted:Yeah, I definitely get a Matrix-esque "this is how you see yourself" vibe from Lion. Which is why I'm both excited and afraid to see Yamada as Yamada in the next scene. Will it be them in the flesh, or another projection? Will we ever see them as they really were, or is that a futile question in itself? I mean if you think about it the difficulty of seeing Yamada as they really are is a big part of what Umineko is about, since it's apparently one of the things Beatrice was trying to lead Battler to? I've seen some people say that the central character of Umineko has DID and I disagree. I know a lot of the broad strokes of stuff but not the details, which is why I'm restraining myself to character analysis or discussion of things I don't know yet, but what we've seen going on up to this point strikes me as dissociation but a different, uh, flavor. Escapism that's become overgrown and strangling when rooted in horrible self-esteem and abuse trauma, rather than alters actually 'taking over the body'. Which I think is shown by the fact that Yamada can apparently discard a persona when they have to, thus a good chunk of the times Kanon and Shannon have 'died' just being them being discarded by the person behind them. That to me implies that Yamada is in control here? PetraCore fucked around with this message at 06:36 on Jul 22, 2017 |
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Jul 22, 2017 06:33
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witchcore ricepunk posted:Yeah, I definitely get a Matrix-esque "this is how you see yourself" vibe from Lion. Which is why I'm both excited and afraid to see Yamada as Yamada in the next scene. Will it be them in the flesh, or another projection? Will we ever see them as they really were, or is that a futile question in itself? I was bracing myself there for Shannon, Kanon, or both to show up at the end there. The fact that the game itself cut the scene off there has me thinking it won't be so simple. On the subject of Lion's gender, I think we all might want to be careful about applying our present-day Western ideas about gender to someone in 1980s Japan. I personally get less the feeling that Lion identifies as non-binary, and more that they have a gender but doesn't believe it should have any bearing on how they are treated or what they can do.
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Jul 22, 2017 07:17
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ZiegeDame posted:I was bracing myself there for Shannon, Kanon, or both to show up at the end there. The fact that the game itself cut the scene off there has me thinking it won't be so simple. Queer people existed in the 80s, you know.
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Jul 23, 2017 17:07
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Neopie posted:Queer people existed in the 80s, you know. No one's saying they didn't, but how we think about it now, here (wherever your value of "here" happens to be), is probably different from how it was thought of over 30 years ago in this fiction's Japan.
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Jul 23, 2017 18:44
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Yeah, which is why I think that only Ryu07 could confirm or deny specific things about Yamada's experience, but I also think he's not going to. There's definitely an aspect of 'no matter what my gender is I should be able to present how I like' with Lion, though, and the interesting thing is I think given the time period and especially place (Ushiromiya family in specific, not just Japan), if Lion's gender was confirmed one way or another that would sort of collapse the 'cat box' of their gender and present restrictions on how they could act and present, or at least invite judgements. Obviously within Lion's timeline their family knows what their gender is, or at least their sex, but within the narrative framing them refusing to confirm their gender one way or the other is them refusing to tell the viewer what expectations the viewer should have of them. I think? EDIT: And I think that includes 'Lion is NB' or 'Lion is trans' for expectations.
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Jul 23, 2017 19:08
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I wonder if the gender ambiguity is also a device meant to further obscure Yamada's "true" self. If Lion were decisively X, the audience would be able to think, "Oh, so Yamada was X all along!" Then we would inevitably fill in the blanks of our understanding of their character with our own prejudices. And that seems as foolish as wondering which of Beatrice, Kanon, or Shannon was the more realistic representation of Yamada's personality. But maybe we'll find out the truth pretty soon anyway?
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Jul 23, 2017 19:41
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:No one's saying they didn't, but how we think about it now, here (wherever your value of "here" happens to be), is probably different from how it was thought of over 30 years ago in this fiction's Japan. Yeah, I mean, where I'm from queer is something that gets yelled at you in the street, not a personal identity, and that's within the same time frame, things can change massively depending on where and when you are.
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Jul 23, 2017 20:23
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Graylien posted:Yeah, I mean, where I'm from queer is something that gets yelled at you in the street, not a personal identity, and that's within the same time frame, things can change massively depending on where and when you are. Twenty years ago, "smear the queer" was a game my teachers would get grade schoolers playing during recess. 
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Jul 23, 2017 20:27
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:Twenty years ago, "smear the queer" was a game my teachers would get grade schoolers playing during recess. How would that game even work?
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Jul 23, 2017 23:37
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bman in 2288 posted:How would that game even work? It's like tag where the person who's "it" has the ball and everyone else tries to tackle them.
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Jul 23, 2017 23:42
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So basically American football/rugby.
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Jul 23, 2017 23:43
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Confused Llama posted:As a ciswoman with a PhD in a STEM field and all of the experiences that entails, I could also read Lion's behavior here as that of a woman in a traditionally masculine position (in this case, one of authority) who is sick of people making assumptions about her competence for her position based on her gender and so has chosen to obscure that gender, not necessarily because she herself doesn't personally identify as a woman but because she's tired of trying to make other people's idea of what her gender identity means align with her own. Note that Lion's dialogue with Will explicitly calls out their working relationship ('partner'ship) as being one where gender shouldn't matter. Keep in mind that Kinzo is ridiculously sexist and patriarchal (see Eva's experience and recollections). You could say "well he'd make an exception for someone connected to his true love", but if that were the case wouldn't he have just made Kuwadorian Beatrice the head? Krauss (and probably Natsuhi) have also internalized these gender roles, so the idea of them letting a female Lion dress up in traditionally masculine clothing feels more than a little unlikely. edit: By the way, I'm excited to see that there's an ongoing Umineko LP thread. I normally don't read the LP subforum, but I read Umineko about a year ago and, despite it being hands-down my favorite "nerd media*" story ever, had a really hard time finding anyone to discuss it with because it came out so long ago. Even once you understand the underlying "truth/solution", there's still a whole lot to discuss (and a million interesting things that show up on a re-read). *By "nerd media" I mean stuff like video games, anime, visual novels, young adult fiction, etc. I'd probably also throw in popular television shows like Game of Thrones. Basically anything that you might see represented at something like Comic-con. lotus circle posted:I don't care what anyone says, I love Ryukishi's art. You can especially see how he improves over time going from EP 1 to EP 5 and onward. This is from waaay back in this thread, but - as someone who initially played the games with the updated PS3 sprites and generally liked them - Ryukishi's art is actually often better at conveying subtle expressions. Regarding George in particular, I actually don't like George's PS3 sprite because it makes him look like a pretty attractive guy. George is explicitly supposed to be average at best, and Shannon makes fun of him for inheriting some of Hideyoshi's genes during their date in Episode 2. So I always interpreted George as being a guy who is a little frumpy and not particularly good looking (compared with Battler who is apparently a total stud - thus contributing to George's obvious inferiority complex towards him) Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 01:54
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Ytlaya posted:wouldn't he have just made Kuwadorian Beatrice the head? If he did that, how would he
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Jul 24, 2017 02:48
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Ytlaya posted:wouldn't he have just made Kuwadorian Beatrice the head? Yes let's make the secret inexplicable daughter of an illegal Italian alien the head of the family, nobody will ask questions
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Jul 24, 2017 03:28
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tiistai posted:Yes let's make the secret inexplicable daughter of an illegal Italian alien the head of the family, nobody will ask questions My point is that the same logic could be used for making Lion the head. At least Krauss and Natsuhi would be aware that Lion is not actually their child under these circumstances, yet they haven't put up a strong (visible, at least) resistance to him being designated the future head. I'll grant you that it would have been a harder to introduce Kuwadorian Beatrice to the family, though, since he didn't have the same excuse as he did with there being no other viable children in Krauss's branch of the family. But this still doesn't address the point about Krauss/Natsuhi/Kinzo definitely not being the kind of people who are likely to be okay with a female Lion dressed in a more masculine way (we know that Natsuhi is really big on Jessica acting like a "proper lady" while around her, for example). edit: Unrelated, but I've been reading through this thread and you guys are generally doing a much better job of reading this series than your average random internet person, at least from what I've seen (I've also looked at posts on other forums like animesuki from back when the Chiru episodes were being released). Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 04:02
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Ytlaya posted:My point is that the same logic could be used for making Lion the head. I wasn't referring to the Ushiromiya family itself but society in general. Lion doesn't pose the same problem because they're officially Krauss and Natsuhi's kid. edit: Basically making a young blonde foreigner-looking woman the head of a rich Japanese family would turn way more heads than necessary tiistai fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 05:05
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I've really enjoyed the excellent commentary done by people in this thread. It would have been cool to see a nonbinary character in Japanese media, but I knew in my heart that it was not to be. This story has criticism of patriarchy and gender roles, but Japanese media handling of LGBT topics is still... developing? Hard to say? Some creators will touch upon them briefly and maybe be inaccurate, but altogether show that they are at least vaguely sympathetic. But more often than not the chance to discuss LGBT topics will be tossed under the rug. There will be a pair of characters of the same gender be in an 'intense bond' with each other that is "a true, pure love", willing to spend their whole lives together in the same house, even raising a child at the same and being parents together. But nope, it won't be okay to just say that they're gay. Or in other examples, female characters who dress/appear as male will readily throw that all away and become super girly, with their crossdressing being seen as nothing more than a fit that must be given up in order to live a happy normal life as a traditional Japanese woman. If there's something that seems like it might be a LGBT topic in anime or manga, I'm already quite used to it turning out to be either solely for humor, or just used as something to make a character temporarily more exotic. However, I don't think I'd mind the inevitable "nah, Sayo is going to give up any explorations of gender, it's okay, things are happier now" ending, because R07 is mostly trying to deliver a message against patriarchy/sexism/abuse/loss/trauma/stifling gender roles. There is still a core message of trying to defeat those sort of harmful attitudes. It's still trying to help people. This story is not so much about LGBT topics, but unrestricted access to a fulfilling life for all people no matter how they were born or the circumstances they came from. ...Hopefully what I'm trying to say makes sense.  tl;dr: I knew that Lion is more about rejection of gender roles, than nonbinary, but that's okay I still like the story. Also, I'm glad that no one has bought a Kinzo avatar for themselves when this LP started because they would probably feel really bad about it after the last update.
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Jul 24, 2017 06:16
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I mean Yamada is definitely at least bisexual.
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Jul 24, 2017 06:22
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To derail slightly for some last minute theorizing before everything starts getting settled. So, talk about Maria recognizing someone by how they act and not how they look got me thinking. I always assumed Maria was actually having tea parties with someone with blond hair and a fancy dress, but it could have just as well been Kanon and/or Shannon in their servants close apparently. Which brought me all the way back to episode 2 when Beatrice does her sleight-of-hand to replace Maria's candy. Since Rosa was an accomplice in that game, it's reasonable to assume the deal was struck then and the whole scene is lies told by the guilty to protect themselves. So maybe Yamada didn't even have to change clothes for that. Except Kyrie also saw Beatrice, though only briefly and from behind. Which got me thinking, why Kyrie? Spurious speculation based on metaphor begins here. Maybe Kyrie was presented the same offer that Rosa was, but she refused. Which would suggest that whatever deal was struck could be posed in vague enough terms that the person being bribed wouldn't know a bunch of murders are about to occur. Which further suggests that Rosa didn't know she signed up for murder town, and by the time she was in the chapel and halloween was in full swing, she was in too deep to back out. I now return you to your regularly scheduled gender discussion, already in progress. For all that Lion seems comfortable in their ambiguity, the other side of the coin at times presents as a man and at times a woman, perhaps-not-coincidentally based on the gender of that persona's love interest, so there's sure to be something going on there. Hell, I theorized way back when that Beatrice may have been created as a response to the difficulties of loving Battler as a man. That sure fits with "You must love him because I cannot."
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Jul 24, 2017 06:49
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PetraCore posted:I mean Yamada is definitely at least bisexual. Even that I'm a little on the fence about. Japan does have a thing about allowing young school girls to date each other, but it's seen as harmless because "it's not real". The usual mindset there is that the girls are only practicing being romantic with their friends, practicing for the opportunity to fall in love with an actual boy. Once they get to a certain age, Japanese families start to frown on it and insist that they go and become married with a guy now (and also have children already. The pressure Natsuhi, Eva, Kyrie, and Rosa felt to have kids ASAP is kinda not that far off). Jessica and Yamada would still fall into the right age that a same-sex relationship would probably be seen as okay and not really a big deal (to themselves. We all know already that dating furniture is verboten by everyone else on Rokkejima). ...But I'll give R07 a thumbs up on the bisexual topic. They seem like someone who is aware of the shortcomings of Japanese society, and also has strong feelings about love. I'm pretty sure that when they said that when Yamada and Jessica loved each other, it was probably real love.
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Jul 24, 2017 06:52
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EagerSleeper posted:Even that I'm a little on the fence about. Japan does have a thing about allowing young school girls to date each other, but it's seen as harmless because "it's not real". The usual mindset there is that the girls are only practicing being romantic with their friends, practicing for the opportunity to fall in love with an actual boy. Once they get to a certain age, Japanese families start to frown on it and insist that they go and become married with a guy now (and also have children already. The pressure Natsuhi, Eva, Kyrie, and Rosa felt to have kids ASAP is kinda not that far off). Jessica and Yamada would still fall into the right age that a same-sex relationship would probably be seen as okay and not really a big deal (to themselves. We all know already that dating furniture is verboten by everyone else on Rokkejima). Yes, at least on Yamada's part. I don't know how enthusiastic Jessica would be about her best friend and her boyfriend being the same people at the heart of it, much less getting into the family stuff. Although the fact that Shannon has been extremely close to Jessica as a friend for years makes the fact that Kanon is in love with Jessica make more sense. Yamada seems to compartmentalize their love to different personas so as to avoid 'cheating', so since Shannon is already taken and Yamada might also be concerned about Jessica's sexuality, the male mask gets the romance with Jessica?
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Jul 24, 2017 06:55
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EagerSleeper posted:If there's something that seems like it might be a LGBT topic in anime or manga, I'm already quite used to it turning out to be either solely for humor, or just used as something to make a character temporarily more exotic. Not sure what you've been reading (shonen? gag manga?) but there's a ton of LGBT themed manga though if you look for it. As far as I know it's mostly romance or slice-of-life, naturally, but there's serious ones too.
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Jul 24, 2017 06:56
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^^^ There's a decent amount, but it's true that a huge portion is stuff intended to titillate (usually) straight girls. There are definitely some series that treat the topic well, like Shimanami Tasogare, and stuff created by and for gay audiences (like Bara manga), but they're heavily outnumbered by stuff pandering to straight readers in some way. I think that it's a bit of a stretch to say Jessica's feelings for Kanon are "real love." She even admitted herself that she just became interested in him because of Shannon talking about George and him being the only guy she saw regularly outside of school. And there's nothing wrong with this! It's totally fine to want to date someone just because you find them attractive. But there's no reason to assume she's "truly in love" with him, since she's hardly even spoken to him. I think this is a big reason Shannon was shown to win their "love duel"; she's spent more time with George, so their relationship has a more solid basis than Kanon's. Kanon even makes a comment related to this, saying his love could have "competed" with Shannon's if he had started speaking with Jessica much earlier. Also, regarding Class-S relationships and Jessica, I think she's a bit old (18) for it to be viewed as generally socially acceptable (at least by people like the Ushiromiyas). For a while I was mistakenly under the impression Jessica was 15/16, but she's actually around Battler's age. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 07:13 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 07:04
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Ytlaya posted:But this still doesn't address the point about Krauss/Natsuhi/Kinzo definitely not being the kind of people who are likely to be okay with a female Lion dressed in a more masculine way (we know that Natsuhi is really big on Jessica acting like a "proper lady" while around her, for example). Episode 5, Part 21 posted:
Also, feel free to join #witchchat, which one imagines will be lots of fun as we get into the rest of the episode.
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Jul 24, 2017 07:13
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"I am aware of that. However, pieces cannot do things that are impossible for THEM. And they specialize in actions appropriate to their original PERSONALITY. Therefore, that was certainly something that you... that Battler was capable OF. That is why I am grateful to YOU."
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rko posted:Whatever else is true about Lion, what we've read so far in EP7 backs up the idea that the entire Ushiromiya clan is cool with the sexual ambiguity of the successor, in part due to Lion's extraordinary talents. Also, I think we can take Kinzo at his word that he really wanted to atone for his sin, and did so in part by giving Lion everything that was his. Meanwhile, Natsuhi is just happy to have a perfectly behaved child and Krauss is probably relieved that he doesn't actually have to be the successor and can focus on his moon tourism business. Yeah, but Lion's main gender-ambiguous activities (assuming they're male) seem to be stuff they do at school or stuff that doesn't go too strongly against expected gender roles for a male (the idea of a man cooking probably wouldn't bother people like Krauss/Natsuhi nearly as much as a woman wearing pants as formal-wear - the latter of which we know Natsuhi cares about). And, while this isn't conclusive proof, there's also the fact that Natsuhi describes the phone caller in Episode 5 as "the man from 19 years ago" (and presumably she would be aware of the sex of the baby she was given). I mean, none of this unequivocally proves anything on its own, but it does suggest that one possibility is more likely. Is this #witchchat an IRC channel or something? edit: Also, regarding piece behavior, I think that while pieces can only do things that are possible for the people they represent, that doesn't mean that what they do is necessarily what would likely happen. A good example is the stuff where Battler goes to the Golden Land in Episode 3 and Natsuhi and Eva are bonding over their children loving servants. Maybe such a thing would technically be possible if those two people had a completely different history, but once you enter the noxious history of the Ushiromiya family into the equation it becomes pretty much impossible. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 07:27
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