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DancingShade posted:Whether the doctor is actually the current president or not he was once, which is good enough. It comes with special powers because putting on the matrix of leadership is the time lord version of space steroids. President of Earth
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Jul 23, 2017 12:15
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MrL_JaKiri posted:President of Earth I want to be the president of bread puddings.
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Jul 23, 2017 12:22
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Isn't the Matrix of Leadership a Transformers thing?
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Jul 23, 2017 12:23
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Dabir posted:Isn't the Matrix of Leadership a Transformers thing? Transformers also has a spark but I'm pretty sure it didn't invent static electricity. God if it did then that would be so depressing.
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Jul 23, 2017 12:24
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MrL_JaKiri posted:This is the case in the episode as well - a new solution is only negotiated because of the threatened and actual violence done by the Zygons. Even if we take your very kind interpretation as base, the Doctor still only gets involved after it becomes a shooting war. He's around on Earth a lot at this point - why does the same thing not apply to him, especially given that he is President [edit] although I forget if it's that episode where we find it out, if so that doesn't really apply [/edit]?
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Jul 23, 2017 12:28
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DancingShade posted:Transformers also has a spark but I'm pretty sure it didn't invent static electricity. The matrix of leadership is indeed from Transformers, the Doctor Who matrix is something very different.
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Jul 23, 2017 12:32
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Block transfer mathematics are how one alters the very universe. Here let me show you the secrets of reality: *shows basic multiplication table from a primary school* With this primer you should soon be on your way to creating your own pocket universes and fabricating anything you can dream of out of thin air using only a mere singularity as a power source.
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Jul 23, 2017 12:43
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https://www.facebook.com/christopherjonescomicart/posts/1358069847563940 Davison's actually pretty welcoming about this.
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Jul 23, 2017 12:50
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Lol no he's not, he's saying all the things he knows people want to hear but with "but what about the boys having a role model!" and "but what about the old guys like me!" That he just can't let loving go inserted into it. If you have raised your boy child so he can't see a woman as a role model then you are a bad parent, and a horrible human being, who has seriously limited your child's world view and life potential.
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Jul 23, 2017 13:10
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Cruel Rose posted:https://www.facebook.com/christopherjonescomicart/posts/1358069847563940 Other than the whole "but what about a role model for boys!!!" thing. 
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Jul 23, 2017 13:52
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A delicious mug of steaming hot takes
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Jul 23, 2017 14:32
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jivjov posted:Other than the whole "but what about a role model for boys!!!" thing. He looks so much more like grandpa Patrick, now. 
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Jul 23, 2017 14:34
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MrL_JaKiri posted:President of Earth Peter Harness really seems to like the idea of the Doctor getting made president of Earth during an alien crisis, after Moffat's Death In Heaven introduced the idea he wrote two stories and both of them made the Doctor President. I don't think a trying even came of it in the Zygon episodes.
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Jul 23, 2017 14:37
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Lampsacus posted:He's charismatic and knows how to generate fun out of nothing. Of course, it is all clearly directed at children so I guess its just subjective taste? He is awfully good at what he does though. He'll be a big hit with the brexit crowd when he starts disparaging the Jews.
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Jul 23, 2017 14:42
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I thought he was already in league with antisemites. Not necessarily an antisemite himself, but being fine with the language and memes of that bigotry.
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Jul 23, 2017 14:55
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toanoradian posted:I thought he was already in league with antisemites. Not necessarily an antisemite himself, but being fine with the language and memes of that bigotry. He basically pulls the same poo poo a lot of them do which is "Sure I SAY racist/homo/transphobic/sexist poo poo, but I don't believe it in my heart!" which is a bullshit attempt to shift the argument from what one says/does to one's intent, or worse, to one's inner self. Because how the gently caress do we know what you believe or what you truly are inside, except by what you say and do? I also feel like he's used the Mel Brooks defence that all 'comedians' who don't understand how Brooks' style of humour works (or that even some of that is iffy, like his stuff about sexual orientation) try to justify being racist edgelords instead of having real jokes.
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Jul 23, 2017 15:13
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"I am as funny as Mel Brooks" is something no youtuber has the right to say
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Jul 23, 2017 15:16
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Speaking of YouTube, here's something really old but cool as poo poo I just heard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY4SwBHe8oE
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Jul 23, 2017 15:28
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MrL_JaKiri posted:The oppressors don't talk at the start because the oppressors have no reason to give a poo poo if existing conditions are materially better for them. "Human rights" has never been much of a reason for people in a position of power to do anything, basically every time it's been invoked it's PR cover for something economic or martial. There's a lot of problems, in part because of the massive oversimplifications Harness tends to make at least somewhat unthinkingly in his episodes. "This is a scale model of war" presumes that war is between two monolithic sides, for example. Setting aside the "immigration means assimilation" angle of the episodes, which I suppose moves fruitfully from the "No Coloureds" of Remembrance of the Daleks to a policy of "You can be Coloured so long as you look and act like you're white," which of course means setting aside a huge loving problem... Oppressors are not a single monolithic force. The American Civil War eventually freed the slaves, but slave uprisings were not the trigger but rather a variety of factors and fissures between those who benefited/profited from slave-holding and those who did not and who objected to it. When the vast majority who didn't care started leaning in the direction of eventual abolition, the South seceded to forestall that possibility; after three years of open war, in desperation, they were discussing at least partial abolition in the hopes of survival. Conversely, the Northern victory did not instantly free and enfranchise all slaves, nor did it address underlying material inequalities created when your ancestors were kidnapped, sold and treated as property. Because the Zygon two-parter ends up treating the Zygon people as represented by the two murdered leaders vs all the other Zygons save one which we see, and treating humanity as effectively monolithic (hey, nobody can care about Zygon rights because you need security clearance to know they exist!), and also because it dodges instead of engaging with the serious questions it raises in the interest of grandstanding, it doesn't really engage at all with these issues and complexities. Nor does Kate get condemned-as she should be-for evidently doing nothing about the Truth or Consequences incident. The Zygons have a legitimate grievance and it doesn't appear that their human hosts have been very welcoming, which maybe relates in some way to the fact that the majority don't know they exist because the original deal was so secret. I forgive Harness a bit here because Moffat clearly started on the premise that the Zygon-human agreement from Day of the Doctor was taken-to-be-perfect when it clearly can't be, and the episodes do undercut that narrative in a pretty realistic way before being editorially dragged back to "I SAID IT WAS PERFECT drat IT" by the end. The deepest problem is that a new solution is NOT negotiated. Bonnie halts her revolution and takes over as Zygon leader protecting the arrangement; if any changes to the agreement were reached, not only do we not see that process on screen but Kate can't remember them because her memory of the whole conversation was wiped. If the point of the exercise was to force the two sides at war to "SIT... DOWN... AND TALK!" then one would expect some actual conversation about the issues to have taken place, but Bonnie and Kate don't address each other at all and there's no sign anything has changed afterward. And the Doctor is a massive hypocrite given the context, however noble the speech intends itself to be: The Doctor was going to push another button, but didn't (thanks in part to Clara). "Oh, so instead, he and the leader of the Daleks did what they were always gonna have to do anyway, SIT... DOWN... AND TALK?" No, of course not, by "not pushing the button" the Doctor means "instead of killing everyone on both sides, I saved my own people while trying to kill everyone on the other side, but it was only because they killed themselves in a cross-fire so it's OK and anyway there's Daleks all over the drat place and the Time Lords are still gone, so what was the point really?" The Speech does work interestingly, though, as the perspective of a man who has himself repeatedly been a violent revolutionary who, in his later age, now urges non-violent solutions to problems. The Doctor's steeped in blood and tired of killing, and the opening of the next season suggests that's true even when it comes to the Daleks, but it's not clear whether his position stems from wisdom or self-hatred, from enlightenment or exhaustion. The problem is the constant one on this show, that where the Doctor really ought to stay involved we don't see that happen because the show is off to his next adventure, not covering the aftermath of his previous ones. All truth, few consequences. I don't blame the new series for that as it's done better than the old in that regard, but it does make for a cringeworthy "moral" lesson here. Narsham fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Jul 23, 2017 |
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Jul 23, 2017 15:49
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2house2fly posted:Peter Harness really seems to like the idea of the Doctor getting made president of Earth during an alien crisis, after Moffat's Death In Heaven introduced the idea he wrote two stories and both of them made the Doctor President. I don't think a trying even came of it in the Zygon episodes. Yeah, if for no other reason, I kind of think Peter Harness should be done writing Doctor Who episodes for leaning on the President of Earth thing. Plus, even if you like the speech the Doctor gives at the end, that speech was written by Stephen Moffat, anyway (you can find interviews with him back at the time in which he talks about watching Peter Capaldi performing it).
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Jul 23, 2017 16:22
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Peter Harness is the most consistently awful writer in modern Doctor Who. I do not believe he has ever brought anything of quality or substance to any episode he has written.
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Jul 23, 2017 16:25
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You do have to wonder who's going to be in the writers room if Chibnall is going to run it that way. Jamie Mathieson seemed clear in his Reddit interview that he wouldn't be hired for the new season and obviously people like Neil Gaiman are out. I guess we'll probably start to know more in January.
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Jul 23, 2017 16:30
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I'm not really sure how writers rooms work; do they all hash out a story together then one of them goes off to write the screenplay or is it a team effort all the way through?
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Jul 23, 2017 16:37
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Wheat Loaf posted:I'm not really sure how writers rooms work; do they all hash out a story together then one of them goes off to write the screenplay or is it a team effort all the way through? It varies a lot, but here's my understanding of the general, simplified version: First everyone will pitch ideas. Then the ideas that the head writer or showrunner like are handed to an individual writer to turn into a script. This writer is the person who is usually credited as the writer of the episode. Once a script is written, the writer's room as a whole will collaborate on making revisions. How much is changed in the room will vary a lot between different series and even from episode to episode.
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Jul 23, 2017 16:55
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jivjov posted:Other than the whole "but what about a role model for boys!!!" thing. I sympathize with that point, but honestly in terms of lessons young boys will draw from this show, the Doctor becoming a woman shows them that women can be heroes to look up to too, and give young girls a take-charge, confident, knowledgeable role model and those kinds of lessons are probably more valuable right now.
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Jul 23, 2017 18:06
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This quote was probably mainly intended to apply to boys, but these days, with female action stars getting in on the fighting, it's probably more relevant than it's ever been:quote:It's hard to talk about the importance of an imaginary hero. But heroes ARE important: Heroes tell us something about ourselves. History tells us who we used to be, documentaries tell us who we are now; but heroes tell us who we WANT to be. And a lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero, they didn't give him a gun--they gave him a screwdriver to fix things. They didn't give him a tank or a warship or an x-wing fighter--they gave him a box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower or pointy ears or a heat-ray--they gave him an extra HEART. They gave him two hearts! And that's an extraordinary thing. There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor.
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Jul 23, 2017 18:29
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MrL_JaKiri posted:The oppressors don't talk at the start because the oppressors have no reason to give a poo poo if existing conditions are materially better for them. "Human rights" has never been much of a reason for people in a position of power to do anything, basically every time it's been invoked it's PR cover for something economic or martial. Are the Zygons actually the oppressed though? The treaty allowing them to be on Earth was negotiated with both sides not knowing who they were- they had to work something out on the assumption that if anyone got shortchanged, there was a 50/50 chance it would be them. Not to mention the great rebels weren't doing their own work so much as forcing other Zygons out into the open without, you know, asking them or anything. They were committing violence against their own in that sense. I think my major objection to the consensus is, yeah, it's problematic and reflects a privileged view of things, but there's a leap from that to "more racist than Birth of a Nation". Excluded middles and all that. Maxwell Lord fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Jul 23, 2017 |
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Jul 23, 2017 18:56
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Eiba posted:I think the argument isn't that boys lack for role models, it's that they lack for non-violent thinking role models. The Doctor is an unusual role model for boys in that he isn't an action hero and doesn't use force to solve his problems. He makes thinking, empathizing, and being compassionate cool heroic traits for boys, and that's what Peter Davison is lamenting. I could only read it in this way too. Maybe I just want to give Davison the benefit of the doubt but, based on the whole quote, it does seem like people writing news stories want to put words in his mouth. Press often wants to do that... (I'm not sure the role model argument is that important anyway but I'm not a parent so children's role-models aren't things I normally think about.)
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Jul 23, 2017 19:01
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Maxwell Lord posted:Are the Zygons actually the oppressed though? The treaty allowing them to be on Earth was negotiated with both sides not knowing who they were In real life terms, there are class issues and not just gender ones. Theresa May and Donald Trump could happily negotiate something that would make a lot of peoples lives worse in both the UK and the USA (and, just as importantly, everywhere else too). Furthermore, it's clear that the situation was not stable. Remember that the sacrifice the humans made was "allow the Zygons to immigrate", the Zygons had to go through the whole rigamarole of pretending to be humans all the time, and if they were young or not great at shapeshifting run the risk of being lynched every time they went out of the house.
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Jul 23, 2017 19:08
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I still think there was something fundamentally objectionable in the rebels FORCING the other Zygons out. It reminded me very much of ISIS's stated objective to end the "grey zone" of co-existence between Muslims and non-Muslims in the West, and how much of their violence is specifically meant to cause that kind of backlash. And you know, a lot of that extremism is clearly traceable as a response to centuries of colonial oppression. That doesn't make it good.
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Jul 23, 2017 19:15
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Boys still have 10 other modern seasons with four male doctors to watch. And if they need something on the air right now... Well, idk what's on but there has to be something. Like maybe science programs. I guess the doctor is somewhat as not just a pacifist protagonist but a super smart and curious one. As a lovely manchild, I can think of some modern cartoons with pacifist protagonists off the top of my head but they're not really like the doctor.
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Jul 23, 2017 19:16
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Maxwell Lord posted:I still think there was something fundamentally objectionable in the rebels FORCING the other Zygons out. It reminded me very much of ISIS's stated objective to end the "grey zone" of co-existence between Muslims and non-Muslims in the West, and how much of their violence is specifically meant to cause that kind of backlash. And you know, a lot of that extremism is clearly traceable as a response to centuries of colonial oppression. That doesn't make it good. I could barely stand to watch the episode so many people making bad decisions purely to advance the plot which itself wasn't particularly well thought through.
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Jul 23, 2017 19:22
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*checks* goddammit it's still not next series
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Jul 23, 2017 19:28
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HERAK posted:I could barely stand to watch the episode so many people making bad decisions purely to advance the plot which itself wasn't particularly well thought through. "Okay, soldier, these are shape-changing aliens, so keep your wits about you; they could be anyone!" "It's me, your mother!" "I instantly believe you." "Put down your weapons and come into this church." "Okay." "And get your men to do the same." "You heard her, boys!"  Would it have been particularly difficult for the Zygon to be sneaking about and picking them off by disguising themselves as one of their squadmates?
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Jul 23, 2017 19:30
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It was supposed to be an emotional response akin to the car defense mechanism from Rick and Morty, psychological warfare rather than physical warfare. Unfortunately it completely failed.Maxwell Lord posted:I still think there was something fundamentally objectionable in the rebels FORCING the other Zygons out. It reminded me very much of ISIS's stated objective to end the "grey zone" of co-existence between Muslims and non-Muslims in the West, and how much of their violence is specifically meant to cause that kind of backlash. And you know, a lot of that extremism is clearly traceable as a response to centuries of colonial oppression. That doesn't make it good. It doesn't make it good, but it's understandable - and ISIS in particular are the result of specific and very recent failures on the part of the aforementioned western governments.
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Jul 23, 2017 19:36
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When rewatching Series 9, just watch Zygon Inversion - the Recap is more than enough to catch you up on the important bits you need to remember
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Jul 23, 2017 19:38
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Vinylshadow posted:When rewatching Series 9, just watch Zygon Inversion - the Recap is more than enough to catch you up on the important bits you need to remember Better idea: don't
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Jul 23, 2017 19:42
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Counterpoint: Yes do, if we ignore all the other bad writing the way capaldi sells the "all the poo poo that I have seen" speech will give you chills.
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Jul 23, 2017 20:09
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Does anyone have the US Blu Ray releases of the eighth or ninth series? I was dragging my feet getting them, and finally did from Amazon - they're in slim (single disc sized) cases, and I was a little disappointed since all previous releases were in larger boxes with plastic "pages" for the discs. But I cannot remember at the time at Best Buy or whatever if the Capaldi ones came like that, or maybe they switched to slimmer cases for the seasons? I cannot find a photograph of one from the side to see the thickness - well, I can find plenty of European ones, which are in the larger sets, but no US ones. I suppose it's not a big deal, I was little irritated that the third ST:TOS set was in a slimmer box and got over it...mostly.
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Jul 23, 2017 20:38
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Surely a decent male companion would be a good role model for boys? Rory was awesome. And if playing second fiddle isn't good enough, well - just wait a while or watch some of the old stuff, I suppose.
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Jul 23, 2017 20:45
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