BENGHAZI 2 posted:Why don't the police just gun the joker down as soon as he's in custody holy disingenuity batman
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Jul 23, 2017 09:38
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Neurosis posted:it's valid to find a lack of realism in another aspect to be a flaw. anyway it's not like i'm saying this totally undermines the story, it's just one background detail i'm not too sold on. It's sufficiently covered by information in the text that I think you just aren't accepting some of the logical extensions of Cauldron/Endbringers/Escalation-via-unwritten-rules/relative power levels to humans.
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Jul 23, 2017 11:43
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i think the odds of every nation and military everywhere accepting the same logic rather than there being many that responded with overwhelming force, at least when metahumans first began appearing, to be very low. a background event of that kind of response going insanely badly for some nation would be enough of an explanation.
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Jul 23, 2017 12:00
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China might be run by parahumans. Whether the Yangban are nominally or really under the emperor is unclear. Siam (greater Thailand) is under parahuman control, but that is mostly from WoG and the sidequests. Africa is a wartorn hellhole and many regions are under direct parahuman warlord control. The world is under Cauldron control and teleportation + Contessa ensurers that you can more or less keep it that way.
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Jul 23, 2017 12:18
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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:Except that Worm's shtick is insanely good and consistent background detail which often has significance to later plot events. The logical extension of "everything happened at the behest of a conspiracy with the literal Authorial Fiat (Path To Victory) power"? edit: The extension that inevitably comes back to "shard magic" or "Cauldron magic"? Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Jul 23, 2017 |
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Jul 23, 2017 12:44
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Milky Moor posted:The logical extension of "everything happened at the behest of a conspiracy with the literal Authorial Fiat (Path To Victory) power"? I mean that's really reductive. Contessa has a way of making people stop thinking. Even without Contessa they'd have an obscene amount of social control, it's only made absolute by a maximum-rated Thinker. Given Cauldron literally controls (at least) the Protectorate, the PRT, and a good chunk of heroes and villains, is it so surprising that the dominant approach to law enforcement would be heavily influenced by them? Presumably they have a lot of pull with the US government (and probably local governments) and can ensure that the police departments butt out and the PRT joins in for parahuman fights (because they have the funding, equipment, and training), and ensure that the PRT policies are designed not to kill. Also, since there are way more villains than heroes, going on a villain murderspree would mobilize a ton of thinkers, trumps, and highly rated everything. One Nilbog is enough.
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Jul 23, 2017 20:21
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Working through book one of Twig and man I wanna know about the Hangman and why he'd called the man with the hands
BENGHAZI 2 fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Jul 23, 2017 |
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Jul 23, 2017 20:31
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Please don't distribute, period. Every time this happens it risks his ability to publish, because publishers won't print something distributed like that.
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Jul 23, 2017 21:10
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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:Please don't distribute, period. Every time this happens it risks his ability to publish, because publishers won't print something distributed like that. word, i'll delete that bit. my bad y'all
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Jul 23, 2017 21:51
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in other news i love how arc 1 of twig feels less like an origin story/setup bit and more like an entire independent story of its own poo poo rules
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Jul 23, 2017 22:02
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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:I mean that's really reductive. Contessa has a way of making people stop thinking. Even without Contessa they'd have an obscene amount of social control, it's only made absolute by a maximum-rated Thinker. ugh. contessa is such a crutch.
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Jul 24, 2017 00:11
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This month's Mother of Learning up.
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Jul 24, 2017 00:20
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Neurosis posted:ugh. contessa is such a crutch. I feel like the passengers are a much more significant narrative crutch that Contessa. Contessa doesn't even show up in the story meaningfully until like Chapter 15, but up until that point many times when characters are holding the idiot ball, it can be narratively hand-waved by Passenger-interference. (Why didn't they try harder to kill Jack Slash? Because his passenger would have stopped them. Why does Taylor continually recklessly escalate at every opportunity? Her passenger drives her towards conflict. Why does Noelle go berserk? Her passenger is taking over and going full conflict-mode. etc.) It takes a story about people being given powers that personify their traumas into a story about a bunch of characters without agency being driven by an alien, malevolent force into conflict outside of their control. Worm still works as a good story because you can pretty much completely ignore the interference of the passengers, and the story mostly still scans, but it still lurks in the background. I like the *nugget* of the idea--that of conflict being how the aliens test new uses for their technology--but it comes close to being too convenient of an explanation for character behavior and robs characters of agency--was the character doing the thing, or was their passenger nudging them in the direction of doing the thing? The passengers don't need to exert as much influence as they do to get the result they want--give a bunch of humans superpowers and the world would eventually turn into a conflict-ridden hellscape by itself anyway. Contessa, as a plot device, is just the-character-that-can't-be-beaten-by-the-other-characters, taken to narrative extreme. In a story that already has all sorts of precog powers, she isn't really that hard to believe (although she does seem to be a strictly better version of Dinah, because Dinah can do what Contessa can do, but it cripples her for weeks). Also Contessa chapters are just delightful (especially the first one where she wrecks Faultline's crew offscreen).
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Jul 24, 2017 00:33
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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:I mean that's really reductive. It's entirely true though.
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Jul 24, 2017 00:58
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Twig Chapter Two: just got to the off handed mention that the Crown is America and I just holy poo poo
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Jul 24, 2017 02:25
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Milky Moor posted:It's entirely true though. No, it's idiotic and useless. Just because Cauldron can do anything with their thinker short of having 100% confidence in taking down the bigger bads doesn't mean they have exercised total and absolute control over everything. Just that they've ensured the system favors them. However it's set up, the reasons for it being set up that way are most likely going to be reasonable and not necessarily contrived. Calef posted:Why does Taylor continually recklessly escalate at every opportunity? Her passenger drives her towards conflict. Why does Noelle go berserk? Her passenger is taking over and going full conflict-mode. etc.) It takes a story about people being given powers that personify their traumas into a story about a bunch of characters without agency being driven by an alien, malevolent force into conflict outside of their control. reeeeeeally suggest you take a listen to the We've Got Worm podcast, it dives into some really interesting character discussion. Doctor w-rw-rw- fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 02:27
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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:No, it's idiotic and useless. Just because Cauldron can do anything with their thinker short of having 100% confidence in taking down the bigger bads doesn't mean they have exercised total and absolute control over everything. Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:I mean that's really reductive. Contessa has a way of making people stop thinking. Even without Contessa they'd have an obscene amount of social control, it's only made absolute by a maximum-rated Thinker. 
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Jul 24, 2017 02:33
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They get money and favors by selling powers, and Contessa explicitly doesn't have the ability to affect powers; she's blind to triggers. Even if Contessa were not Miss Always Win they'd still stand a good chance they'd be able to set themselves up in a similar way, though perhaps with less stability or some info leakage. Just because they could be a bunch of drooling idiots and lean on her power for everything doesn't mean they are a bunch of drooling idiots and lean on her power for everything. They have a distrust of powers despite using them. That they have control and influence over those organizations doesn't mean they actively are involved in making all decisions, just that they get to set it up to favor them.
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Jul 24, 2017 02:54
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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:This is subtly but directly addressed. Taylor's personality flaws and worldview, not the passenger's influence, is responsible for a lot of her stupidity, but she's really good at ignoring it. Oh no, I agree that Taylor's actions can be mostly explained without resorting to Passenger shenanigans (which is why Worm is good)--but the in-story existence of the Passengers masterminding some components of the story is narratively unsatisfying, and potentially immersion ruining. Wildbow's WoG explanation for why Jack Slash isnt just straight up killed is "his passenger subtly interferes with other passengers to prevent that from happening, to the extent he could actually defeat Contessa. (I'm following We've Got Worm closely, it is indeed the bees knees)
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Jul 24, 2017 03:28
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Twig Chapter Two: just got to the off handed mention that the Crown is America and I just holy poo poo Not exactly, but the Crown States are America.
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Jul 24, 2017 03:32
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Calef posted:Oh no, I agree that Taylor's actions can be mostly explained without resorting to Passenger shenanigans (which is why Worm is good)--but the in-story existence of the Passengers masterminding some components of the story is narratively unsatisfying, and potentially immersion ruining. Wildbow's WoG explanation for why Jack Slash isnt just straight up killed is "his passenger subtly interferes with other passengers to prevent that from happening, to the extent he could actually defeat Contessa. Wildbow has also stated that passengers have almost no direct influence on the personalities of parahumans, however (barring a few exceptional cases like Burnscar). Instead, they pick hosts with some inclination towards conflict already, and sometimes reward them for conflict by making powers slightly more effective.
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Jul 24, 2017 03:45
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Not exactly, but the Crown States are America. Yeah, pretty sure it's the British Empire
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Jul 24, 2017 03:47
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Not exactly, but the Crown States are America. Oh. Well that's less interesting because it's what I figured was going on originally. Anyway the Whiskers arc is decent and I like the look at the politics at the Academy
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Jul 24, 2017 07:06
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Twig is exceptionally good and has remained that way until at least arc 18 (where I am now).
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Jul 24, 2017 09:31
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Namarrgon posted:Twig is exceptionally good and has remained that way until at least arc 18 (where I am now). i was kinda not lukewarm on it but i wasn't sure of its strength as a serial for most of the first arc, because it didn't really seem to have a hook to turn it into an ongoing thing vs a solid novella the first Enemy chapter sold me on it though, i'm fuckin in
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Jul 24, 2017 11:59
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Namarrgon posted:Twig is exceptionally good and has remained that way until at least arc 18 (where I am now). I'm on arc 19. I'd say it's been good except for some of the arcs in the middle with Sy and Jamie/Jessie visiting random small towns and getting into conflicts with two-bit gangsters. I kept wanting to get back to what Lillian and the Duke of Francis were up to.
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Jul 24, 2017 12:25
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I stopped reading at the end of 18 because it just wasn't fun anymore.
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Jul 24, 2017 13:54
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No, it's heartbreaking 
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Jul 24, 2017 15:18
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Lone Goat posted:I stopped reading at the end of 18 because it just wasn't fun anymore. Twig lacks the same "I gotta find out what happens next!" element Worm had, but overall it's far better written. That being said, even though I think it's better I wouldn't say I enjoy it more than Worm, though that's mainly just because Worm's genre/setting is fun and I've never been a fan of Steampunk (or in this case "Biopunk") as a genre. I definitely like Sy a million times more than Taylor, though. I will never stop complaining about how obnoxious Taylor is. In general I liked the Wards a lot more than the Undersiders (with the possible exception of Lisa), and would rather read a series with Clockblocker or Weld as the protagonist. Neurosis posted:ugh. contessa is such a crutch. Contessa makes sense (she has a shard humans were never meant to be given due to the mishap with the Entities), but I'm also not a big fan of her power. That being said, it seems like killing her would actually be entirely possible as long as you catch her by surprise. Like if you give her a poisoned drink or snipe her, she isn't going to have time to think "avoid this attack." I guess she could just start every day by adding an "ensure I don't die today" condition, but that still relies on her being smart enough to account for things ahead of time. Speaking of her power, if I were Contessa I would just ask myself to "write a book I will enjoy more than any other book I've read" and then read along as my hands automatically type it out.
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Jul 24, 2017 18:58
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Nothing in Worm requires that the shards have any mental effects on the hosts outside of the blatant cases (e.g. Burnscar, Labyrinth, etc.). Even the Jack Slash WoG can be somewhat justified as him basically having parahuman-specific precog where he knows what the shard will do before it does anything rather than him having any active influence. I'm quite happy to just ignore any comments from Wildbow outside the story that could be interpreted as the shards actively influencing capes as just a routine thing as it's so much less interesting than the idea of the shards picking people who don't even need to be influenced.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:00
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I agree with that. Worm works perfectly well if you ignore shard mental effects (outside of broken ones like Echidna) but just go with shards-pick-the-most-unstable ones. We know how normal everyday power can turn people into tremendous vicious assholes, superpowers can do the same, no psychic magic needed.Ytlaya posted:Contessa makes sense (she has a shard humans were never meant to be given due to the mishap with the Entities), but I'm also not a big fan of her power. That being said, it seems like killing her would actually be entirely possible as long as you catch her by surprise. We know for sure she does this to a lesser extend (i.e. when not-spied on by Imp during the super secret summit) and almost certainly does it to a greater extent. I kind of like her power though because of how utterly destroying it is to the individual. Imagine living like that; yeah you can do whatever you want, but it will never be _you_. In many ways Contessa is just a passenger (ha!) and passive observer of her own body for the events she sets in motion and the the goals she sets. It is somewhat hinted at near the end, where she muses something like "maybe I'll do something for myself now". Ever since she was a child the individual Fortuna essentially ceased to exist and Contessa is little more than a very (very) efficient tool.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:12
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Namarrgon posted:I kind of like her power though because of how utterly destroying it is to the individual. Imagine living like that; yeah you can do whatever you want, but it will never be _you_. In many ways Contessa is just a passenger (ha!) and passive observer of her own body for the events she sets in motion and the the goals she sets. It is somewhat hinted at near the end, where she muses something like "maybe I'll do something for myself now". Ever since she was a child the individual Fortuna essentially ceased to exist and Contessa is little more than a very (very) efficient tool. Yeah, but that's only if she chooses to use it constantly. Its a hell of a better deal than the parahumans who are permanently altered mentally in some negative way.
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Jul 24, 2017 23:34
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Ytlaya posted:Yeah, but that's only if she chooses to use it constantly. Its a hell of a better deal than the parahumans who are permanently altered mentally in some negative way. The problem with that is that she must use her power constantly, as any action she takes while not using it (no matter how minor) could throw off the main Path she's working towards. She can choose to switch it off, sure, but the only safe times to do that are when her power tells her to. In a very real sense that's nearly as restricting as Labyrinth or Burnscar's drawbacks.
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Jul 25, 2017 11:43
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I figured out why I like twig So far it's just a long series of ACCORDING TO KEIKAKU
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Jul 25, 2017 22:23
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I just caught up with Twig. It feels like Sy doesn't have much longer to live, and I think Wildbow has said Twig will be ending soon, but there's a lot unresolved; we haven't even met the Lord King yet. Maybe it will end with them killing the Infante and taking over the Crown States, and the epilogue will set up a conflict between the newly independent America (led by the surviving Lambs) and the Lord King that won't be returned to until a few years later when Wildbow writes a sequel. A tangent: "Lord King" is a kind of silly title, but a lot of the high-ranking Nobles have silly titles. I guess the idea is that titles like "Infante" and "Archduke" reflect the Crown's claim to Spain and Austria as well as Britain, but "First Augustus" is just odd. Especially because in Diocletian's Tetrarchy, the Augusti were the senior Emperors, but he seems to be slightly below the Infante. I suspect WIldbow came up with weird titles in part to distance them from the real-world British royalty and nobility; if he made, say, the Earl of Pembroke a villain, the real one might take offense. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Jul 26, 2017 |
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Jul 26, 2017 01:07
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Twig #3: not as big a fan of the main story as I was in the last two books but the enemy chapter at the end more than made up for it
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Jul 28, 2017 04:44
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Silver2195 posted:I just caught up with Twig. I mean, the mightiest figures in Pact were the Lord of Toronto, a middling demon, a middling angel, and the lawyers. It wouldn't be inconsistent at all for Wildbow to, in Twig, be telling the story of a chunk of the Crown States as they get blasted by the Academies, with the Infante and the Duke as the top Crown figures. Especially in light of the Noble-Academy thing we've been delving into - the real enemy is the massive overarching structure, not the dude who happens to be sitting on the throne at this particular moment. Well, the massive overarching structure, and the voices in Sy's head that may be wanting him to set up a almost as evil overarching structure to protect the Lambs. 
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Jul 28, 2017 05:11
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Brofessor Slayton posted:The problem with that is that she must use her power constantly, as any action she takes while not using it (no matter how minor) could throw off the main Path she's working towards. That is a good point. I wonder if it also forces her to function on minimal sleep, since it can basically use her body as a puppet as long as she's physically capable of moving around.
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Jul 29, 2017 00:23
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Twig pt 4 thoughts:i like how much of this was the lambs just being totally out of their depth, and also the reveal of what project caterpillar actually is is fuckin wild
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Jul 31, 2017 00:42
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I've read up to Chapter 219 in Kumoko and it's gtten weird and I'm starting to lose interest, does it pick back up again? I like the side characters, but the whole thing with Kumo not actually being a person but a spider who was in the class room but has a person's memories, and the real person being the 'administrator' of the world put me off and now the story just seems rambling and unfocused to me.
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Jul 31, 2017 17:49
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