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qkkl posted:If Palestinians want peace, the first step is to recognize Israel's right to exist. If you treat people like non-humans, then expect to be treated like a non-human. quote:In 2011, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said in a speech to the Dutch parliament in the Hague that the Palestinian people recognize Israel's right to exist and they hope the Israeli government will respond by "recognizing the Palestinian state on the borders of the land occupied in 1967." They already did. The Israeli response is always to move the goalposts. If they acknowledge Israel has a right to exist, Israel demands they recognize the right of a Jewish-majority state to exist.
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Jul 23, 2017 18:36
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I know this is Debate & Discussion, but how can anyone engage qkkl, GaussianCoupula or hakimashou when they are operating from a position completely detached from reality and continue to argue in bad faith? I can understand not letting their ahistorical sociopathic rhetoric stand unchallenged, but these "people" aren't going to be swayed by appeals to reason or morality. Hell, even if you dropped them in the middle of Gaza looking swarthy with dark hair, they would still probably welcome the "civilizing" forces as an Israeli boot kicked in their teeth e: mortality=/=morality Autism Sneaks fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Jul 23, 2017 |
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Jul 23, 2017 19:01
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It's definitely remarkable how bad the posters who take up the Israeli side have always been ITT, and how those posters always take up the most extreme Zionist positions even though there's plenty of more moderate stances available. It has that in common with the Libertarian thread. They could just argue for minimalist government or whatever but instead they immediately offer up their opinions about how child slavery are good - here, it's straight up justifying war crimes.
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Jul 23, 2017 19:04
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Kim Jong Il posted:I'd actually argue that Jewish Home and Hamas/Nusra/Hezbollah/etc... (not Daesh of course) are accurate representations of their religions, which is why their religions should be ignored and dismissed. You are wrong, this a narrow minded and insulting appraisal of both Judaism and Islam.
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Jul 23, 2017 19:05
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Disinterested posted:All this talk of right of return is as if in actuality Palestinian negotiatiors demand an unlimited and open ended right of return when in fact in negotiations they've accepted watering it down to almost nobody, and Israel still treats that as an unreasonable demand. That's why I support the peace process, and condemn BDS just as Chomsky and Finkelstein do, as it is clearly opposed to the peace process does material harm to the efforts of ending the occupation. If anyone wants to boycott the settlements, or support a temporary boycott while nor supporting the actual BDS movement, that's their business, although I markedly disagree. Overreaches like BDS, or the Dyke March or Slutwalk where they've banned Jewish symbols and then lied about it, these are the greatest gift imaginable to extreme Zionism. Netanyahu would rather be talking about those than settlements or checkpoints any day of the week, so it's loving preposterous why the intersectional idiots keep yammering on about it. And it's infuriating, because these proposals actively hurt the peace process and empower reactionaries. Enophos posted:You are wrong, this a narrow minded and insulting appraisal of both Judaism and Islam. Of course there's a wide variety of experiences within both, I just think they're frauds, the same for any religion. I'm actually adopting the argument of David Hume here. If you're going to water down the true religion even one iota, you might as well go full atheism. Logic can't be applied to faith, because if it is, that's the only reasonable conclusion. You either need full atheism or full fideism. All religion is unmitigated trash, you just need to say it in a context where it's not used to do things like cudgel people from the Middle East.
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Jul 23, 2017 19:33
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next up, forums poster Kim Jong Il explains why boycotting South Africa delayed and was contrary to the goals of ending apartheid Autism Sneaks fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Jul 23, 2017 |
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Jul 23, 2017 19:39
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Kim Jong Il posted:That's why I support the peace process, and condemn BDS just as Chomsky and Finkelstein do, as it is clearly opposed to the peace process does material harm to the efforts of ending the occupation. If anyone wants to boycott the settlements, or support a temporary boycott while nor supporting the actual BDS movement, that's their business, although I markedly disagree. Except you're completely unaware, seemingly, of the reasons Chomsky and Finkelstein 'oppose' BDS (for starters, Chomsky isn't wholly opposed to it). I don't really disagree with either Chomsky or Finkelstein: the one state solution is stupid, BDS can be culty, and the boycott should try to target the occupation over Israel as a whole. In any event: it's clear to everyone that the only way for the status quo to change with I/P is heightened international pressure on Israel, in particular from the US. There are no incentives internal to Israel or Palestine for Israel to do anything other than endlessly prevaricate while it slowly absorbs more of the West Bank, since military operations against Israel are mostly impossible and there's no electoral pressure for peace. HW Bush threatened loan guarantees and security spending and lo, a real peace conference emerged. More of that would greatly increase the chances of settlement. Ed: for clarity, Chomsky opposes the cultural boycott and any indiscriminate boycott of Israel as a whole. Finkelstein's problems with BDS are largely about its own tenor and not related to the peace process. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Jul 23, 2017 |
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Jul 23, 2017 19:44
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Kim Jong Il posted:Of course there's a wide variety of experiences within both, I just think they're frauds, the same for any religion. I'm actually adopting the argument of David Hume here. If you're going to water down the true religion even one iota, you might as well go full atheism. Logic can't be applied to faith, because if it is, that's the only reasonable conclusion. You either need full atheism or full fideism. All religion is unmitigated trash, you just need to say it in a context where it's not used to do things like cudgel people from the Middle East. I didnt know r/Atheism had such a vocal pro-Israel faction
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Jul 23, 2017 19:45
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Other people in other countries do much worse things than BDS, Kim Jong Il, so shouldn't you be spending 100% of your time talking about those things before you say a word about BDS?
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Jul 23, 2017 19:53
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Autism Sneaks posted:next up, forums poster Kim Jong Il explains why boycotting South Africa delayed and was contrary to the goals of ending apartheid There's actually a lot of scholarly debate about that. As both Finkelstein and Chomsky explain, if you have a movement with a possible goal (occupation) and an impossible goal (refugees), BDS effectively says peace is impossible. I think the only way to end the occupation is to laser focus on that, because the status quo is not on your side otherwise. Disinterested posted:Except you're completely unaware, seemingly, of the reasons Chomsky and Finkelstein 'oppose' BDS (for starters, Chomsky isn't wholly opposed to it). I don't really disagree with either Chomsky or Finkelstein: the one state solution is stupid, BDS can be culty, and the boycott should try to target the occupation over Israel as a whole. I characterized their arguments from what I linked to accurately. The BDS movement is focused on reversing 1948, not ending the occupation, and is thus doomed to failure. BDS is Barghouti, it's not individual, lower case boycotts, which are also doomed to failure, but are not morally criminal and disingenuous. quote:In any event: it's clear to everyone that the only way for the status quo to change with I/P is heightened international pressure on Israel, in particular from the US. There are no incentives internal to Israel or Palestine for Israel to do anything other than endlessly prevaricate while it slowly absorbs more of the West Bank, since military operations against Israel are mostly impossible and there's no electoral pressure for peace. It's clear that this won't happen in the current geopolitical climate, where in fact the Sunni states of the world are much closer to Israel than ever, barring the recent spat Abbas is a close ally of Israel, and there is zero will in the west to do a single thing. And you've got people like Lieberman making deals with shady UAE despots in a neoliberal's fever dream. Right now all you need is the center to win an election in Israel (where the last few went down to the wire) to restart the peace process, although there's plenty of uncertainty that things will get less tenable on the Palestinian side before that happens.
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Jul 23, 2017 19:57
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Kim Jong Il posted:It's clear that this won't happen in the current geopolitical climate, where in fact the Sunni states of the world are much closer to Israel than ever, barring the recent spat Abbas is a close ally of Israel, and there is zero will in the west to do a single thing. And you've got people like Lieberman making deals with shady UAE despots in a neoliberal's fever dream. There's actually pretty discernable slow drift in the west toward more pressure on Israel, between the EU, Obama, Bibi loving up the relationship with the US, and the fact that Republicans obviously no longer actually give a poo poo.
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Jul 23, 2017 20:00
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VitalSigns posted:Other people in other countries do much worse things than BDS, Kim Jong Il, so shouldn't you be spending 100% of your time talking about those things before you say a word about BDS? It's not 100%, it's proportionality. And I do spend a lot of time thinking about them, it's imperative that tyrants like Assad or the Sauds be brought to justice.
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Jul 23, 2017 20:03
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Gobbeldygook posted:They already did. The Israeli response is always to move the goalposts. If they acknowledge Israel has a right to exist, Israel demands they recognize the right of a Jewish-majority state to exist. It's exactly this attitude from the Palestinians that causes Israel to not take their calls for peace seriously. Israel is still waiting for the Palestinians to call "Uncle!", and will keep beating them down until then.
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Jul 23, 2017 20:07
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Kim Jong Il posted:It's not 100%, it's proportionality. And I do spend a lot of time thinking about them, it's imperative that tyrants like Assad or the Sauds be brought to justice. Ah, so you're advocating that no one ever do anything about BDS, because that would violate the concept of proportionality as any time or effort spent counter-organizing can't ever be proportional to the amount of time one should be spending organizing against all the more numerous and much more serious things happening around the world.
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Jul 23, 2017 20:19
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Ze Pollack posted:it feels a little too on the nose that a german right winger sees people being thrown into ghettos for the crime of impure blood + being on land their betters want, then retroactively justifying it by proclaiming the untermenschen represent an existential threat, and says "hell yes, this is my jam"
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Jul 23, 2017 20:39
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If Germany didn't lose its colonies in Africa a Jewish state could have been carved from some low-populated savanna down there after WW2.
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Jul 23, 2017 21:03
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qkkl posted:If Germany didn't lose its colonies in Africa a Jewish state could have been carved from some low-populated savanna down there after WW2. I'm sure the natives would have been extremely happy with this, and that it would not have resulted in dire consequences during the anti-colonization of the '60s-'90s.  In actual news, this is being censored in Israel I think, but there has been an attack on the Israeli embassy in Jordan: https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/889184282320699398
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Jul 23, 2017 21:13
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Kim Jong Il posted:Of course there's a wide variety of experiences within both, I just think they're frauds, the same for any religion. I'm actually adopting the argument of David Hume here. If you're going to water down the true religion even one iota, you might as well go full atheism. Logic can't be applied to faith, because if it is, that's the only reasonable conclusion. You either need full atheism or full fideism. All religion is unmitigated trash, you just need to say it in a context where it's not used to do things like cudgel people from the Middle East. The validity of religion is not the issue here. The millennia of philosophy and cultural standards that have developed from Jewish and Islamic theology have shaped the world view of the people involved in this. It influences how they live, what they value, what they want out of this conflict, and what they are going to do in the future. All religions are real in that they shape peoples' biases and actions.
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Jul 23, 2017 21:25
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Attack on the Israeli embassy at Amman, one Jordanian casualty and an injured Israeli. The report is currently being censored in Israel, of course it's all over the internet so that seems pretty futile.
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Jul 23, 2017 21:33
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qkkl posted:If Palestinians want peace, the first step is to recognize Israel's right to exist. If you treat people like non-humans, then expect to be treated like a non-human. 1. Palestinian organization have conceded that point already. 2. States do not have a right to exist. People have a right to self-determination, which means that the Israeli have the right to have a state; but that's as far as it goes. 3. For the same reason, Palestinians have the right to a sovereign state of Palestine. 4. By your logic, since the Israeli treat Palestinians like non-humans, then the rest of the world is entitled to treat Israeli like non-humans.
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Jul 23, 2017 22:16
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Cat Mattress posted:1. Palestinian organization have conceded that point already. 1. They didn't concede that Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state, which is the whole point of Israel. 2. I agree that the Israeli people have a right to exist. 3. I agree that the Palestinian people have a right to exist. 4. The world has always treated Jews as non-human.
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Jul 23, 2017 22:37
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Kim Jong Il posted:There's actually a lot of scholarly debate about that. It doesn't really matter what BDS wants the peaceful resolution to look like specifically. The instant a real peaceful solution comes about BDS will completely and permanently lose what little power and influence it has over the issue. The only role BDS serves is to highlight the I/P conflict in the West and influence people's opinions on it. Their ability to make direct change is close to 0.
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Jul 23, 2017 22:53
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qkkl posted:1. They didn't concede that Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state, which is the whole point of Israel. 1. They conceded years ago and even Hamas scrubbed it from its platform recently. 4. Jew and Israeli aren't synonymous.
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Jul 23, 2017 23:22
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I'm not clear on why were even pretending that an Ethno-supremacist state has any sort of imaginary "right to exist".
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Jul 23, 2017 23:24
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Agnosticnixie posted:1. They conceded years ago and even Hamas scrubbed it from its platform recently. 1. Do you have a source for that? I see this on wikipedia: "In 2009 Prime Minister Ehud Olmert demanded the Palestinian Authority's acceptance of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state, which the Palestinian Authority rejected." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_exist An overwhelming amount of sources I find online about the Israel-Palestine situation are from Israeli/Jewish based sources, and it would make me feel more confident in my knowledge if I read the same facts from non-Jewish/Israeli sources. 4. Not all Jews are Israeli, but all Israeli's are Jews. When I mentioned Israeli I specifically meant Israeli Jews since no one outside of Israel is complaining about Israeli Arabs.
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Jul 23, 2017 23:35
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All Israelis are Jews (except for the ones who aren't).
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Jul 23, 2017 23:38
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qkkl posted:4. Not all Jews are Israeli, but all Israeli's are Jews. When I mentioned Israeli I specifically meant Israeli Jews since no one outside of Israel is complaining about Israeli Arabs. What the gently caress
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Jul 23, 2017 23:39
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The US has a right to exist, but not as a white state. France has a right to exist, but not as a catholic state. Israel has a right to exist, but not as a Jewish state.
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Jul 23, 2017 23:42
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Flowers For Algeria posted:The US has a right to exist, but not as a white state. Would it be ok if Israel had a right to exist as a Jewish state if it meant peace for both Israelis and Palestinians?
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Jul 24, 2017 01:04
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qkkl posted:Would it be ok if Israel had a right to exist as a Jewish state if it meant peace for both Israelis and Palestinians? It could still be officially jewish without the oppressing. Also they've basically got one option to even get that: drop every settlement in the west bank and ditch most of E Jerusalem. At this point it's even doubtful the two state solution is even viable without a map that makes the bantustans look comparatively like a genuine effort in self-determination.
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Jul 24, 2017 01:06
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Apparently the attack was by a few Jordanians who had come into the compound as furniture company employees. Israel is still clamping down on all reporting and has no comment for foreign outlets. Two Jordanians are dead and one Israeli is wounded.
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Jul 24, 2017 01:41
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Israel is still clamping down on all reporting and has no comment for foreign outlets.
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Jul 24, 2017 02:18
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Cugel the Clever posted:What is the justification for this censorship? Is this relatively common? A bit odd coming from a democracy. In this particular context the foreign ministry might have gotten an injunction due to it being an ongoing national security situation, which an attack on an embassy would be. I'm not sure whether they have any more specific reason, but it is not uncommon. Even aside from the possibility of injunctions, Israeli media must pass their reportage or anything security related by the military censor in order to avoid revealing any classified information. There is no established legal protection against prior restraint like there is in the US - quite the contrary. You will find reporters hinting at things they cannot publish with the hopes of international outlets finding it out and exposing it to the point where they can rightfully argue to a judge that this restraint is only stopping them from providing their own reportage, rather than stemming the spread of information.
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Jul 24, 2017 02:23
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tbh installing metal detectors at the Temple Mount is a victory for the terrorists, since it increases tensions between the two factions in that area, which is what the terrorists want. Long range metal detectors need to be invented.
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Jul 24, 2017 02:38
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Was the Palestinian Authority even meaningfully consulted at all in the placement of the detectors or was it just one more unilateral imposition by the Israeli forces? Regardless, the only way this wasn't intended as a deliberate slap in the face of the entire Palestinian population is if Bibi & Co. are monumentally stupid. They're loving right wing war criminals that should be behind bars, but not so stupid as to be unaware of how it would be perceived.
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Jul 24, 2017 03:34
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qkkl posted:1. Do you have a source for that? I see this on wikipedia: "In 2011, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said in a speech to the Dutch parliament in the Hague that the Palestinian people recognize Israel's right to exist and they hope the Israeli government will respond by 'recognizing the Palestinian state on the borders of the land occupied in 1967.'" - Israeli Arabs make up a fifth of Israel's population.* In my mind, accepting Israel's right to exist as an explicitly Jewish state can also be viewed as accepting Arab citizens as a lower class of person, undeserving of the full support or participation in their state. The Palestinian Authority officially giving into this stance is a big problem, as Israel is currently occupying and controlling their territory, and is steadily claiming more and more of the Palestinian Authority's land as Israeli. Were a one-state solution to happen, I can only see such an acceptance helping chain Palestinians into being a legal 'lesser' ethnicity. *By my math half of the people currently under Israel's control, and ultimately in Israel's care, are Arab. To me, a solution which, at its very best, treats a full half of the population as being ethnically disenfranchised and second class is an injustice. treasured8elief fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 03:48
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The following is a cached version of a story from Ynet news about the attack, citing Reuters. Edit: the forums keep mangling the URL, so just copy these two to your browser one after the other to get it. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Wjn9FHD1jkEJ: https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4993406,00.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us If you go to the latest page, you get a 404 error. It seems like there was a delay before the injunction came through. Edit2: Seems like the injunction has been lifted. The secrecy might have had to do with attempts to deal with this aspect quietly: quote:The Jordanians are refusing to allow the Israeli officer to be transferred to Israel, according to Channel 2. Attempts of evacuating the embassy were also reported unsuccessful. Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 04:06
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Enophos posted:You are wrong, this a narrow minded and insulting appraisal of both Judaism and Islam. salafis are not an accurate appraisal of the billions of muslims worldwide?
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Jul 24, 2017 07:38
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qkkl posted:Would it be ok if Israel had a right to exist as a Jewish state if it meant peace for both Israelis and Palestinians? This hypothetical is absurd.
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Jul 24, 2017 07:51
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Would the Palestinians accept a state that consists of all of the West Bank except for Jerusalem and Gaza, with no right of return and no special transit rights trough sovereign Israeli territory? Probably not, which is why the conflict will continue.
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Jul 24, 2017 08:39
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