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bamhand posted:Genji is really good in the hands of a good player. He does enough damage to be a threat to any squishy player and can dive/escape with impunity. There just isn't a great way to play around him. It's not like you can position to be safe or never fall below 50% in a team fight. Uh, it's called "stun him and then murder his loving face because he has some of the lowest HP in the game." Seriously, there are a lot of ways to deal with Genji. Stun and Silence both REALLY gently caress him since he's ridiculously squishy.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:00
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Macaluso posted:I just based that on a picture showing gun arms. I don't play Starcraft Fire dude has flamethrower arms and flamethrowers are not very long ranged in Star craft.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:01
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Fuzz posted:Uh, it's called "stun him and then murder his loving face because he has some of the lowest HP in the game." He's pretty hard to hit. Plus a good healer will cleanse or Uther can DS or whatever. He's not instant pick in every situation but he's undeniably a strong hero. Pros aren't constantly picking him because they want to be a cyber ninja.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:08
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bamhand posted:He's pretty hard to hit. Plus a good healer will cleanse or Uther can DS or whatever. He's not instant pick in every situation but he's undeniably a strong hero. Pros aren't constantly picking him because they want to be a cyber ninja. Well yeah, but plenty of heroes are strong. I fail to see the argument of, "this dude is strong, he needs to be nerfed," as a viable thing... he's not brokenly overpowered like, say, Stukov compared to every other healer right now, or Malth's damage:healing ratio when he first came out, which they noticed and did indeed fix.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:19
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Fuzz posted:Well yeah, but plenty of heroes are strong. All I said was he's very strong and good at killing squishies regardless of their positioning. I never said he should be nerfed. So what exactly are you arguing against? Also Stukov has a 49% win rate on hotslog. 51% if you filter for master only but there are still 4 other supports ahead of him. bamhand fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 19:22
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And I just want a hero that actually shuts down Genji, and other high mobile assassins that are "balanced" by being "squishy" (read, have on demand shields/immunity)
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Jul 24, 2017 19:28
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Don't forget that today's the last day of the Sun's Out, Guns Out event. After today, all the portraits, sprays, swimsuit skins for Tychus and Tracer (and I think the new color variations for Bikini Stitches) and surfboard mounts will no longer be available from loot boxes or crafting. So if there's something you want that hasn't dropped for you yet, you might wanna spend the shards for it before maintenance tomorrow morning.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:30
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Orange Crush Rush posted:And I just want a hero that actually shuts down Genji, and other high mobile assassins that are "balanced" by being "squishy" (read, have on demand shields/immunity) so a burst character with a stun?
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Jul 24, 2017 19:37
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Orange Crush Rush posted:And I just want a hero that actually shuts down Genji, and other high mobile assassins that are "balanced" by being "squishy" (read, have on demand shields/immunity) Uther, Stukov, Kerrigan, Malfurion, Sylvanas, Brightwing, Varian, Alarak, Diablo, Muradin, Zarya, Dehaka, Xul, Anub'arak, and Valeera.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:37
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If killing Genji really was just as easy as walking up to him as Xul/Uther/Dehaka/etc I don't think he would have the pick/winrate that he does.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:45
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Orange Crush Rush posted:If killing Genji really was just as easy as walking up to him as Xul/Uther/Dehaka/etc I don't think he would have the pick/winrate that he does. It really is with any minimal amount of coordination. Genji has a 46.8% win rate overall and 48% at Plat and above.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:48
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:It really is with any minimal amount of coordination. But then people get really good and coordinate to protect Genji and he's good again. He's like Medivh where even in masters people are not great with him. But then really, really, really good people are amazing.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:51
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bamhand posted:But then people get really good and coordinate to protect Genji and he's good again. He's like Medivh where even in masters people are not great with him. But then really, really, really good people are amazing. Agreed, but the people complaining about Genji are not playing in Grandmaster TL.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:52
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Ah yes, the good old "just stun him" argument. Genji is the most mobile hero in the game and he has a built-in invulnerability button + a super strong dodge talent, catching him is not easy at all. That hero just makes me glad we hots players have really lovely mechanics because a Genji good enough to bait out Divine Storms and whatnot would be impossible to play against.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:55
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Eraflure posted:Ah yes, the good old "just stun him" argument. Genji is the most mobile hero in the game and he has a built-in invulnerability button + a super strong dodge talent, catching him is not easy at all. That hero just makes me glad we hots players have really lovely mechanics because a Genji good enough to bait out Divine Storms and whatnot would be impossible to play against. Protection and dodge both don't work against stuns. Protection is cancelled as soon as he is stunned. Genji has a 46.8% win rate. People crying about heros that punish mistakes is the worst, because it usually results in Blizzard not releasing new heroes with impactful talents and makes the game balanced around the idea that mistakes and positioning don't matter.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:58
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I do think it's more frustrating because if you're solo you can't do anything about him. People complain about stealth heroes but you can do things like stay near your towers to play around them. You can see Genji coming from a mile away and there's nothing a large portion of the cast can do to get away. Having two people be on the ball to stop something is probably 5 times as hard as just getting one person to stop it.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:58
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Genji destroys uncoordinated teams and he also destroys with a coordinated team who protects him. The counter to him is to work excellently as a team and synchronize a wide variety of interrupts to deny him any possible avenue to flank. Naturally this almost never loving happens in a normal game.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:58
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Blizzard literally made part of Kael's basic kit a level 20 talent because people complained that "don't stand next to the living bomb" was too hard.
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Jul 24, 2017 20:02
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Protection and dodge both don't work against stuns. Protection is cancelled as soon as he is stunned. Winrate is entirely meaningless, especially when we're talking about a hero picked in every single game as long as he isn't banned. Can't be bothered to check if you took all leagues into account but lol if that's the case. I will be completely fine with him punishing bad positioning once they nerf him properly but keep thinking the Bad Player Society is out to get him I guess. quote:Blizzard literally made part of Kael's basic kit a level 20 talent because people complained that "don't stand next to the living bomb" was too hard. Or maybe because infinite spread is extremely effective at disrupting low range teams, esp in maps with a lot of chokepoints. Even grandmasters had to move around living bombs, and simply making your enemies scatter for a few seconds is a very powerful ability. I mean beside Valeera, I'm pretty sure Blizzard doesn't balance the game around silver players spreading bombs 30 times. Eraflure fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 20:06
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Orange Crush Rush posted:And I just want a hero that actually shuts down Genji, and other high mobile assassins that are "balanced" by being "squishy" (read, have on demand shields/immunity) Uther, for one. New Thrall seems to be pretty decent at just making GBS threads damage on Genji and then poking him before he can escape, but not nearly as reliable. Valeera can literally delete Genji if you DON'T use the default build (which as I stated above is sorta not that great, honestly) and instead go: 1- Anything, doesn't matter. Vigor is not necessary. (don't need Crippling Poison, but can't hurt) 4- Anything other than Hemorrhage (Don't need Wound Poison, but can't hurt, also don't need Initiative because of synergies later on) 7- Fatal Finesse 10- Smoke Bomb 13- Blind 16- Seal Fate 20- Nightslayer or Adrenaline Rush if restealthing hasn't been a huge issue thus far You open on Genji with Cheap Shot for a stun, then Sinister Strike to already hit your 3 Combo while he can't move. Then you Eviscerate and Blade Flurry and if he's not already dead (he should be, and his stun would only just be wearing off) he's already out of the fight and has to leave. If you used Wound Poison then their healer can't do poo poo to help him, even with insane reflexes, and really the only defense he would have is to knock you out of stealth early (hard in a team fight), him getting cleansed of stun immediately (hard for the support to do in such a small window), he preemptively hit Reflect (in which case you wait till it expires you idiot), or he has a shield/immunity to stun effect running (again, then you wait it out). I tried this out last night (in QM, granted) but I was straight up deleting the enemy Genji from team fights immediately, he'd either die (more likely later in the game) or immediately have to bug out to not get killed, and with my teammates around to help, he was dying constantly in all three games I got to test it out. EDIT: Incidentally, this is a great build to use on Valeera for any hero that's squishy with high mobility and can escape quickly, because her pursuit ability is pretty mediocre since Sinister Strike's range is mostly crap. Examples include Li-Ming, another Valeera, Raynor, Valla, Tracer, Alarak, Falstad, etc. Fuzz fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 20:06
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Eraflure posted:Winrate is entirely meaningless, especially when we're talking about a hero picked in every single game as long as he isn't banned. Can't be bothered to check if you took all leagues into account but lol if that's the case. It was already posted, he has a 48% win rate above Plat. 90% of the people complaining about Genji are people who have never been punished for their positioning. They are the same people who complain about Nova "one-shotting" them when they were split pushing with half health as Raynor. Genji has already had several major nerfs. Taking away or limiting his ability to punish out of position people and escape removes the only reason to play him. And constantly removing abilities and heroes that punish mistakes is bad for the overall health of the game.
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Jul 24, 2017 20:10
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W.T. Fits posted:Don't forget that today's the last day of the Sun's Out, Guns Out event. After today, all the portraits, sprays, swimsuit skins for Tychus and Tracer (and I think the new color variations for Bikini Stitches) and surfboard mounts will no longer be available from loot boxes or crafting. So if there's something you want that hasn't dropped for you yet, you might wanna spend the shards for it before maintenance tomorrow morning. Signal boosting this above genjichat. Thanks! ... I don't play Tychus. I do NOT play Tychus. Why am I about to pay 2400 shards for a legendary bulge skin? Edit: pirate sprays are different, right? They didn't come at the beginning of the event. I don't think I need to forge them all tonight, especially since they're not on the events tab. BrianBoitano fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 20:10
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I used to really enjoy Tychus and then they reworked him and now I don't like him and I can't place why. Also I bought the Infested skin for him a long long long time ago so I don't need the speedo skins. I feel more stupid because I have like literally 50 mounts plus and am still considering crafting a surfboard
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Jul 24, 2017 20:17
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:It was already posted, he has a 48% win rate above Plat. Plat/diam does not matter either. I'm poo poo at this game and I consistently calibrate in diamond. Winrate outside of the pro scene does not reflect anything unless we're talking about extremely high/low values or fluctuations. You don't have to nerf his ability to catch people off guard. You could simply lower his DPS, his ability to reset an encounter if his assassination fails or the effectiveness of his dodge talent so he doesn't do everything you could possibly want from an assassin. Being able to deal steady, extremely hard to punish DPS, thus enabling himself, is the part of his kit they should nerf imo.
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Jul 24, 2017 20:20
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Eraflure posted:Winrate outside of the pro scene does not reflect anything unless we're talking about extremely high/low values or fluctuations. ok
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Jul 24, 2017 20:23
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Yo you wanna erase genji you pick the murky you pick the octo grab one click one ability boom he cant do anything
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Jul 24, 2017 20:24
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frakeaing HAMSTER DANCE posted:I used to really enjoy Tychus and then they reworked him and now I don't like him and I can't place why. I have Tychus at 63 and the rework really sucked. The 20% reduction of his auto-attack range really makes him feel less fun. Not to mention the various nerfs to damage and sustain that came with it.
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Jul 24, 2017 20:26
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Eraflure posted:Winrate outside of the pro scene does not reflect anything unless we're talking about extremely high/low values or fluctuations. Eraflure posted:Plat/diam does not matter either. Eraflure posted:I'm poo poo at this game Eraflure posted:Nerf Genji Okay, now it makes sense.
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Jul 24, 2017 20:27
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frakeaing HAMSTER DANCE posted:I used to really enjoy Tychus and then they reworked him and now I don't like him and I can't place why. Before the nerf that caused his minigun to only return health after the duration really crushed him It was so fun tanking a warrior or two
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Jul 24, 2017 20:33
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Jul 24, 2017 20:35
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Y'know if I only ever went against these magical Genjis that let you stun them as Uther/Murky then yeah I probably won't complain about him either
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Jul 24, 2017 20:36
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Orange Crush Rush posted:Y'know if I only ever went against these magical Genjis that let you stun them as Uther/Murky then yeah I probably won't complain about him either What kind of games are you playing where the other team walks into CC on purpose as a matter of course?
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Jul 24, 2017 20:38
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Wasn't Genji in the free rotation this week? Try him out, you'll see how little he can do without very good coordination unless a fight's already won. Alternatively, enjoy your free wins.
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Jul 24, 2017 20:40
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I'm not sure in what universe almost 1700 base HP is "some of the lowest in the game", but hey. Hit his base HP by 10% and cap Dodge to two charges. Now he actually has to think way more about when he jumps in and out.
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Jul 24, 2017 20:52
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Orange Crush Rush posted:And I just want a hero that actually shuts down Genji, and other high mobile assassins that are "balanced" by being "squishy" (read, have on demand shields/immunity) Clearly the solution is to add Mei.
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Jul 24, 2017 22:09
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Kyrosiris posted:cap Dodge to two charges. What?
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Jul 24, 2017 22:29
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Mr. Bad Guy posted:What? He can build up 3 charges of Dodge, which cut damage on the next BASIC attack by 50%. Has zero bearing on Spells, though. The description is misleading, it says you can dodge every 12 seconds, but that's the point of the stacks. After 36 seconds, you can dodge 3 back to back Basic Attacks and take 50% damage. It's really strong, but then again it doesn't even have a >50% pick rate specifically because it's only Basic Attacks, and what you're scared of as Genji like 80% of the time are high alpha Spell strikes. Fuzz fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 22:40
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Fuzz posted:He can build up 3 charges of Dodge, which cut damage on the next BASIC attack by 50%. Has zero bearing on Spells, though. The description is misleading, it says you can dodge every 12 seconds, but that's the point of the stacks. After 36 seconds, you can dodge 3 back to back Basic Attacks and take 50% damage. It's really strong, but then again it doesn't even have a >50% pick rate specifically because it's only Basic Attacks, and what you're scared of as Genji like 80% of the time are high alpha Spell strikes. Oh I'm retarded, I've never taken that talent. I go with perfect defense because lol icy veins told me to.
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Jul 24, 2017 22:46
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I used icy veins for a while because most other build websites have the most insane UIs I've ever seen (HotsBuilds is baffling). However looking at the winrate of picks on hotslogs icy veins is usually exactly backwards (with a few exceptions which indicates that it's not just new players picking icy vein talents depressing winrates). I've started using hotslogs winrates instead. (it also proved that people are smart when summon ultralisk, a typical "it's not optimal but I like it" pick, has a much better winrate than maelstrom.) They don't tell the whole story ofc. No Wave fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 22:54
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Fuzz posted:He can build up 3 charges of Dodge, which cut damage on the next BASIC attack by 50%. Has zero bearing on Spells, though. The description is misleading, it says you can dodge every 12 seconds, but that's the point of the stacks. After 36 seconds, you can dodge 3 back to back Basic Attacks and take 50% damage. It's really strong, but then again it doesn't even have a >50% pick rate specifically because it's only Basic Attacks, and what you're scared of as Genji like 80% of the time are high alpha Spell strikes. It's not 50% damage, it's total immunity. That's why 3 stacks (plus deflect) is arguably a little much. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Jul 24, 2017 |
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