|
jon joe posted:Let's assume we did some random move this turn that did NOT prevent our opponents from moving Nd5 on their turn. In this example, h3 to illustrate a worst-case, but other examples are near equally bad in subtler ways: Ok, I've worked this out. If that's the fear then D3 and then d4 if they move Kd5 is better in that case because it forces their Knight go back to c7, a worse position (or going back to f7, which must sting and we get to laugh at them for so easily cowed). If black goes Nb4 we d5 and they lose. A lot. It's nice to give them rope to hang themselves with. Will post pictures later. c3 also opens an escape route for our bishop if needed and protects d4. Either c3 or c4, for sure. Fat Samurai fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Jul 20, 2017 |
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 20:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 11:32 |
|
|
Fat Samurai posted:Ok, I've worked this out. D3 and then d4 if they move Kd5 is better in that case because it forces their Knight go back to c7, a worse position (or going back to f7, which must sting and we get to laugh at them for so easily cowed). If black goes Nb4 we d5 and they lose. A lot. It's nice to give them rope to hang themselves with. I don't think our bishop needs the escape route through c4 because we want to maintain the pin. Consider the following:  c4, a6. I think the response is obvious:  Maintaining the pin on the knight to no tangible disadvantage. Opponent can't even attack our bishop again with b5 because that initiates an exchange of pawn, pawn, pawn that ends with us another pawn up and our bishop on b5 staring at an undefended knight:  Black to move.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 20:49
|
|
|
I forgot our castle in those pictures, but just pretend it's there
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 20:52
|
|
|
jon joe posted:I don't think our bishop needs the escape route through c4 because we want to maintain the pin. Consider the following: Fine, "a way to be relevant if the we need it on the right side of the board", instead. Mobility IS and advantage, no matter how you cut it. EDIT: That a8 rook looks scarier now
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 20:54
|
|
|
Fat Samurai posted:Fine, "a way to be relevant if the we need it on the right side of the board", instead. Mobility IS and advantage, no matter how you cut it. I don't disagree in general, but I can't really see anything going on at the other side of the board that our bishop needs to immediately present for, especially anything that's better than pinning down the knight to the queen for now. c4 grants us the most tempo and allow the eventual pushing up of d4 to d5 once we get our knight and rook in position. Not that I think c3 is bad, I just believe c4 is better. As for the a8 rook being scary in that last picture, I completely disagree. I see nowhere it moves that actually frightens us. At best, it's on guard duty I think.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 20:58
|
|
|
Also as I think you mentioned previously, c4 allows the natural development of knight to c3.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 21:00
|
|
|
Yeah, I'm still moving between the 2. c3 has the potential for hilarity if they Kd5 and costs us nothing, that's its main selling point.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 21:01
|
|
|
Fat Samurai posted:Yeah, I'm still moving between the 2. c3 has the potential for hilarity if they Kd5 and costs us nothing, that's its main selling point. I'm not sure how? I look forward to the pictures.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 21:01
|
|
|
Pawn to c4 It gets a pawn closer to the other side of the board, and it could open up some nasty plays against that Knight, Queen, King line.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 21:16
|
|
|
jon joe posted:I'm not sure how? I look forward to the pictures. Sorry for the string of notation: 9. c3 Nd5 10. c4 then either Nc7 or Nf6 and we have won an extra move. Yipeeeh! However, if they see b4 as a nice place for their knight to be in, as you pointed out: 10.... Nb4 11. d5 exd5 (otherwise we take the knight and it's a huge mess), we're equal in material. 12. a3 dxc4 (if they move their knight we cxd5, and have 3 pieces on c6 again and the possibility of checking whenever we want, that's bad news) 13. Re1+ (just to be insulting) Be7 14. axb4,  14. ..... 0-0 is probably their best option here, and their position is in shambles. We're one knight up one pawn down and their advanced pawn is a dead man walking. Their other knight is still pinned and with 2 pieces threatening it. We have a rook in play, they don't. We move. Nd5 is a very bad move for them and we should encourage them to do it, it's what I'm getting at. It's worse with 9.c3 than 9.c4, because the badness is subtler. EDIT: Notation is hard 
Fat Samurai fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Jul 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 21:29
|
|
|
I've convinced myself: c3, for now. For the possible hilarity that may or may not happen!
Fat Samurai fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Jul 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 21:32
|
|
|
Oh, you're right. However, I don't think they're going to do something dumb just because I thought that their something dumb was actually good.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 21:39
|
|
|
I'm sticking to c4 for now because I think it's still better, but as I said I have no problems with c3 at all and will change my vote if others prefer it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 21:41
|
|
|
jon joe posted:Oh, you're right. However, I don't think they're going to do something dumb just because I thought that their something dumb was actually good. I know, but I don't see c3 being that much worse that c4 and I want the thread to be entertaining. Arguing is interesting and maybe we'll get lucky  Edit to include quote
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 21:42
|
|
|
Fat Samurai posted:Arguing is interesting Arguing is not interesting 
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 21:50
|
|
|
jon joe posted:Arguing is not interesting Being contrary is interesting.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 22:48
|
|
|
bman in 2288 posted:Being contrary is interesting. That explains your posting in a certain other thread at least.  I joke because I love
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 23:00
|
|
|
Well, you know what they say: Without love, it cannot be checkmate.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 23:17
|
|
|
bman in 2288 posted:Being contrary is interesting. Contrary response: Being contrary is not interesting Neutral response
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2017 23:32
|
|
|
Covski posted:
Voting c3. It supports our d-pawn, it covers another square if they're planning to move their dark-squared bishop out to facilitate castling.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2017 00:01
|
|
|
After playing it out a bit, I'm on team c4. This is because I'm not convinced the response we have to the natural counter to c3, nd5, is really as strong as the responses we have when they cannot safely make that move. Most likely they castle to protect thier queen, but I had trouble seeing an exchange in that situation that didn't play out in our favor. https://lichess.org/editor/r3kb1r/pp1q1ppp/2n1pn2/1B6/3P4/5Q2/PPP2PPP/RNB2RK1_w_KQkq_- Here is the state of the board at present, if anyone wants to fiddle.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2017 03:24
|
|
|
oath2order posted:After playing it out a bit, I'm on team c4. This is because I'm not convinced the response we have to the natural counter to c3, nd5, is really as strong as the responses we have when they cannot safely make that move. Most likely they castle to protect thier queen, but I had trouble seeing an exchange in that situation that didn't play out in our favor. Oi that's an awesome feature, we should use that every time. I didn't even know you could that!
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2017 03:31
|
|
|
Yeah, I think I'll go with Pawn to C4 as our next move.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2017 08:57
|
|
|
I really don't know from here. what do people think of kc3? Just floating it. Gridlocked fucked around with this message at 12:34 on Jul 21, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2017 12:09
|
|
|
Heads-up: I'm not sure I'll be able to update according to the usual 24 hour schedule on account of doing weekend things! However, you still only have 15 minutes left to vote if you are inclined to do so.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2017 18:50
|
|
|
Pressure! Let's go c4 as the most explosive option.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2017 18:54
|
|
|
Dang it. Missed the deadline by several hours.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2017 23:07
|
|
|
 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Bb5+ c6 5.dxc6 Nxc6 6.Nf3 Bxf3 7.Qxf3 Qd7 8.O-O e6 9.c4 Sorry about the lack of updates, back on track for now! Black has 24 hours to decide on a move.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2017 15:18
|
|
|
Good to have you back!
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2017 16:17
|
|
|
This weekend was fairly uneventful without this. I love me some goon vs. goon shenanigans.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 00:34
|
|
|
 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Bb5+ c6 5.dxc6 Nxc6 6.Nf3 Bxf3 7.Qxf3 Qd7 8.0-0 e6 9.c4 0-0-0 You have 24 hours to decide on a move.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 13:20
|
|
|
Time for Nc3?
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 13:25
|
|
|
Getting the other rook into play is a good idea, so we should be moving either the knight or the bishop. Not happy to leave our d4 pawn hanging, so I'm leaning towards Be3, which would be extra annoying if we decide to play d5 eventually. Right now, there are three pieces bearing down on d4. Kc3 does nothing for us right now besides developing a piece, which, while good, could be better. I'd wait to do that until we see a threat to our bishop.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 13:34
|
|
|
Even with Be3 we're not going to effectively defend our d4 pawn again everything that's lined up against it. And we don't particularly want to, it's still functioning as Queen bait to leave their Knight on c6 exposed, I thought. If we're moving the Bishop, how about Bf4? Doesn't threaten anything directly but stops them moving their King into a safer spot behind the pawn line and generally threatens spaces it might move to if/when we force a check. In fact, Bf4 followed by a Queen move from them to anywhere that stops covering c6 gives us mate in two moves with bc6 and then Qc6. They probably won't do that but it keeps things pinned down for them in a way that Bc3 doesn't really. e: Bf4, not Bd4 of course sebzilla fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Jul 25, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 13:58
|
|
|
Rd1 I think is the move here. Remember that they cant capture with the knight without losing a queen. the only qay they can really mobilize the center column is by capturing with the queen. We can prevent that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 14:23
|
|
|
This is my reasoning, but opening the way for our other rook to join the fun, too.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 14:25
|
|
|
If they do attack with the Queen after Bf4, they've lost. If they see it then we've stopped the attack, if they don't then we've won. Other options such as Rd1 or Be3 will give us one benefit but not both, and also not cover any new territory. Effectively we don't need to defend d4 right now, so we can focus purely on development and aggression. Bolding my vote for Bf4 sebzilla fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Jul 25, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 14:36
|
|
|
Current board I thought we already had a discussion about how we do not yet care about our d4 pawn? It's hanging, yes, but none of our opponent's capture choices leads to a good result for our opponent. Capturing with the knight loses the queen and capturing with the queen loses the knight and a pawn whilst putting the king in check. I think the knight move is self explanatory, so here's an example of what happens should our opponents capture with their queen (this example uses Nc3 as our move):  Qd4, Bc6 Our opponents technically do not need to capture our bishop with their pawn here, but I believe anything else would be straight terrible for them.  Check, only one legal move for our opponent  White to move, very good position for us.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 15:32
|
|
|
Now run that but with Bf4 instead of Nc3 e: your outcome is good aggressively for sure but we've lost all control of the central 4 squares and our Queen is unsupported. sebzilla fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Jul 25, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 15:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 11:32 |
|
|
My vote for our move goes the previously mentioned Nf3: As I just discussed, our opponent capturing the d4 pawn isn't what we care about at this time, as it would actually be an advantage to us. Therefore, what if our opponents take a rather natural move at this point to try and kick off our bishop?  It would not be a retreat. Rather:  Can you see what happens if they do ANYTHING other than moving their king or queen?  Check.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 15:38
|
|