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A fighter|cleric hybrid does sound about right for you. Not the most enable-y of leaders but will heal and defend.
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Jul 21, 2017 22:36
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Lifespirit Warden is supposed to be a leadery defender, but I never saw one played and don't know what they can actually do.
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Jul 21, 2017 22:51
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Zarick posted:Is there a decent build that can fill the role of defender and leader? The best I could come up with was a wis/cha Paladin but that still seemed pretty limited. I'm going to very hesitantly ask: How are your feelings regarding hybrids? Hybrids can be - actually, no, almost always straight up ARE - more complicated then non-hybrids, and usually for bad reasons that make a bad character, but occasionally, they make something beautiful. OpenlyEvilJello posted:While Slashing Wake (or Winter Winds—I wasn't aware of Long Night Scion but that's a nice upgrade) teleports are my fun gimmick, I'm actually more interested in defense and control powers. I've only heard about one other character concept so far (the flail proner), but I'm expecting a fairly large party (likely six), so I'm sort of envisioning a "fireman" quick response role for myself. I would be interested in your thoughts on Swordmage|Warlock as a defender, although I'm afraid this particular concept is pretty committed to fey pact if that's a problem. For me personally, going defender, I adore Sigil Carver. SM|Warlock is basically a defender that's way more honest about being a controller (all defenders are either Strikers or Controllers in disguise). Sigil Carver means you're going to be more focused on melee then implement, because that keys in directly to your warlock half: normally, a Sigil Carver just smacks enemies in 5 squares for a small amount of damage, but with Eldritch Slide, when you smack them, you actually smack them right the gently caress away from your ally. You basically set up two rings of defense; one for your allies who are right next to you, getting +2 to all defenses, and one for your enemies within 5 squares of you, where if you mark them, not only can you reduce their damage through your mark, you can THEN smack them, and send them flying away - or flying FORWARD. Staggering Longsword is clutch because it adds to how far away you are smacking your enemies, and letting you put them exactly where you want them to be. The core thing is the action economy - you're starved as hell, no matter what you do, as an SM/W. Curse and Mark wrestle over your minors, and you still gotta move around. So you use powers that put things together; powers that ALSO let you Curse/Mark/Teleport. So stuff like Dimensional Vortex - which you grabbed! - is so good and valuable. And so is Witchfire, which more or less cripples a single enemy ensuring you don't HAVE to defend against them. Defending without needing a mark! Until 16, you're basically just a Pretty Good Swordmage who traded some HP, surges, and ease of marking, for Eldritch Strike, Warlock Utilities, and Curse - which isn't a bad thing because that's an entirely fair trade. But...once you hit 16, your punishment becomes Absolutely Hilarious, at which point you will suddenly need way better defenses, because now you are public enemy #1. Seriously, level 16 SM|W/Sigil Carver is loving cruel. I love it so much. Remember, Punishing Sigil lets you smack enemies away before they deal damage. On top of that, some of the warlock powers are, funny enough, perfect for defenders, though in Heroic you're going to want to use more Swordmage powers. But UNTIL then, use your multi-use powers. Minor to curse, potentially hit a MAJOR fucker with Witchfire, Move to racial teleport -> Smack a fucker, then stick TO them; alternately, if there's a delightful group nearby, catch them in Decree. Either way, use Dimensional Vortex to defend against someone who you didn't hit with Witchfire. Just like that, round one, you've basically ensured at least two, possible three, enemies, can't hurt your party. You got one who's attack is debuffed so heavily they ain't hittin' poo poo, you got one YOU'RE next to, which isn't the most control but it's something, and then you got Dimensional Vortex up your sleeve. Then on entering round 2, you may not need to move (now you can curse AND mark), or maybe you do need to move but you still have your cursed target (now you can mark). The whole goal is to use those multi-use powers early on while you're still getting "set up" with marks and curses. Really, like MANY - if not straight up MOST - characters, an SM/W blossoms in paragon. That doesn't mean you're bad in Heroic - just that, much like likely the rest of the party, you really fully click once you get access to a second pact and curse spreading shenanigans courtesy of your friendly floating hosed up tiger hand (if you go with familiar item swapping fun) or with other feats. I will note there is one feat you can use to help your damage early on and will basically always be useful, and that's Renewed By Blood. An extra use of your racial is way better then basically any of the pact boons (save MAYBE Star, SOMETIMES???), thanks to how strained your action economy is - after all, a teleport+smack is better then just moving somewhere. Likewise, using hybrid talent for your first pact is...not great. A note on pacts for SM|W: unless you're going for a kinda striker, in which case you want Fey and Elemental, your first pact is kinda fluff. I mean, there are some advantages if it lines up with your Encounter power and it has good feat support, but the boon really is never going to be better then Swordmage Warding. In Paragon however, you can get a second pact, which DOES come with it's boon, and that's when you want to start thinking about useful boons...or not, because even then, the boon effect is pretty minor all around (again, outside of specific Elemental pact characters). Star and SK are noteworthy for it's added accuracy and Mindwhatever Whatever feat that adds 1d6 to your curse damage, but again, that's minor enough that you should just go with what fits the character best.
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Jul 21, 2017 23:43
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Hybrids are fine, though trying fighter cleric hybrid has much lower defenses than the fighter. Guess that just comes with the territory? Trying to figure out if it's worth it or better to stay a straight fighter.
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Jul 22, 2017 00:00
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I mean no matter what, you kinda have to decide if you're more leader or more defender, since you still gotta split your actions between 'em. For the most part, hybrids work in one of two ways: either there's a stupifying amount of synergy between them and you use them both equally (rare as gently caress) or, far more likely, one class becomes the "primary," the other becomes "secondary." For example, a swordmage|warlock is going to be mostly swordmage with the warlock bits supplementing. So if you don't want to hybrid, a thing to consider: A Defender that is 100% Defender but still has some heals and buffs? Paladin. A Leader that is 100% Leader but still wants to wade into the front lines and smack people? Warlord. Now, if you DO want a hybrid, here are two to also consider. Note: these are both defenders first, leaders second. Paladin|Warlord. Paladins want Strength or Cha (or a bit of both) and Wisdom; warlords want Strength, and then Wisdom, Int, or Cha...or they go lazylord and abandon strength entirely. Multiple ways of doing this one. Use paladin powers that mass mark (which...generally means you're going to have, at least, weapons-grade charisma). Consider being a Cavalier|Warlord, if you aren't going to go into Epic, as the only major thing hybrid Cavalier doesn't get that hybrid Paladin does is weakening challenge in epic. Of course, you will have to do Dumb poo poo with the cbuilder to make it work, since the e-class hybrids were never programmed in right. Because the e-class hybrids were never made right, because Mearls is bad at game design. Fighter|Runepriest. You lose heavy shields, but that's it, so you don't need Hybrid Talent to fix your defenses. Very fiddly, but also very fun. There are two major ways to build it: Serene Blade means you're in light armor but with LOOOOTS of THP so you get to be as berserker or as anime as you desire, and Wrathful Hammer means full plate and con, or in other words, you are a mountain of meat surrounded by steel. I've played this one and it can be a lot of fun. Keep in mind though: ONLY YOUR FIGHTER ATTACKS MARK. So stick with mostly fighter powers...and/or get themes or utilities that let you mark.
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Jul 22, 2017 00:45
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Thanks for the replies, Cirno and TheDemon. I get a full rebuild at paragon, so what has occurred to me as a possibility is, at that point, swapping my hybrid pact for something else (maybe SK for Mindbite Scorn/Psychic Lock, since that doesn't depend on the boon or at-will) and using Twofold Pact to reacquire fey pact and get Misty Step while keeping Hybrid Talent (Swordmage Warding). Then I can potentially MC into Assassin and take Cursed Shadow to get Shadow Walk, depending on feat availability and ability scores.
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Jul 22, 2017 01:21
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ProfessorCirno posted:I mean no matter what, you kinda have to decide if you're more leader or more defender, since you still gotta split your actions between 'em. For the most part, hybrids work in one of two ways: either there's a stupifying amount of synergy between them and you use them both equally (rare as gently caress) or, far more likely, one class becomes the "primary," the other becomes "secondary." For example, a swordmage|warlock is going to be mostly swordmage with the warlock bits supplementing. So if you don't want to hybrid, a thing to consider: Hybriding can also 'fix' some of the less supported or just outright bad classes, like how a Ranger|Seeker is fun and viable or a Rogue|Assassin can be fun
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Jul 22, 2017 02:06
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My Lovely Horse posted:One thing that gets overlooked a lot if you play "by the book" is that you can't take an extended rest unless you've been awake for I think 16 hours. That doesn't solve every problem surrounding extended rests by a long shot, but it does mean that if a party tries to pull the old "we fight one group of enemies, then retreat to rest before the next" trick, they give the enemy a lot of time to react and change the situation. The only issue with this, is that it's nearly impossible for my group to fit 4 encounters into 4 / 5 hours of game with reasonable time for RP (my group does 2 - 3 hours of RP, or else I get yelled at for bein "Battle heavy")
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Jul 22, 2017 02:11
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Gonna try and run a roll20 game for internet strangers probably. I have a bunch of character building patches that I built up over the years I haven't been able to get a game together: Did I miss anything? And there's a mechanic I want to spring on the players that I could use some additional eyes on.
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Jul 22, 2017 02:28
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Hm, what would be good ways to use this poisons secondary use?
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Jul 23, 2017 02:46
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Handing over a quest item to someone you want to immediately betray. Maybe put it on something you want to leave unguarded for a bit, but can't risk actually losing or that you're using to catch the thief.
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Jul 23, 2017 02:55
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aegof posted:Gonna try and run a roll20 game for internet strangers probably. I have a bunch of character building patches that I built up over the years I haven't been able to get a game together: Did I miss anything? What's your reason for giving people a customized, limited version of Melee Weapon Training, rather than just giving away that feat for free?
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Jul 23, 2017 06:11
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gradenko_2000 posted:What's your reason for giving people a customized, limited version of Melee Weapon Training, rather than just giving away that feat for free? Melee Training only gives half the stat in damage. If you mean "why not free to everyone," I figure the wizard can spend the feat if they want to get into melee.
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Jul 23, 2017 06:23
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So I tried building out a hybrid Fighter/Cleric, and it actually had higher defenses than the Fighter, while using a two-handed weapon instead of a shield. Problem is I was going with flails and there's no two-handed superior flail. The other problem is of course, how to decide between when to mark, because it won't be happening all the time now. Also, hybrid Fighter's Combat Challenge is specific that only Fighter powers mark -- this includes basic attacks, right? Since Melee Basic Attack is basically a power that every class has. Not sure I'll go with it, but it's interesting to see how good a hybrid cleric makes.
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Jul 23, 2017 15:40
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Darwinism posted:I really like this idea, but I think (unless magical items are super rare) that gaining powers is generally much more valuable in 4E and could possibly lead to the decision overload that's one of the reason 4E turns can take so long. True, would you limit this just to feats and items then? I'm thinking once or twice per "season" for the way my group runs things (there are 3-4 of us with games running and we get to a logical stopping point and switch in rotation, usually the equivalent of a module, and in my next case, Modron March with some minimodules thrown in.) Would that help keep bloat down, you think?
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Jul 23, 2017 16:06
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Zarick posted:Problem is I was going with flails and there's no two-handed superior flail. Spiked chain will treat you right my friend.
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Jul 23, 2017 17:44
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Zarick posted:Also, hybrid Fighter's Combat Challenge is specific that only Fighter powers mark -- this includes basic attacks, right? Since Melee Basic Attack is basically a power that every class has.
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Jul 23, 2017 18:02
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MMAgCh posted:In that case I don't know what to tell you – simply adding those <rules> tags to your code as outlined earlier results in the CB's loading the .part file fine on my end. For the record, I have taken several running tries at making this work using the advice I recieved and every time I try to load the .part file it corrupts Character Builder in a way that requires a reinstall. I'm giving up on this little project - it's not worth the headache, I'll keep the character updated manually. Thanks everyone who tried to help, though.
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Jul 23, 2017 18:12
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Moriatti posted:True, would you limit this just to feats and items then? I'd definitely nix daily powers and probably restrict power gains to non-combat utility/class encounter powers (the only one immediately springing to mind for class powers is the Ranger's power that stops someone from falling that no one has ever taken unironically). I've done something similar in games I've played in by giving people "RP feats" every 4 levels that could only be used on non-combat stuff, including utility powers that weren't directly combat related, because I've found a lot of the time that people just bypass the nifty flavorful stuff because it directly competes with how well they perform in combat, and even if someone is taking those nifty noncombat things it just means more support for their playstyle. That way the combat ideally stays relatively free of bloat but the noncombat gets a bit more flexibility.
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Jul 23, 2017 19:48
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Nalesh posted:Hm, what would be good ways to use this poisons secondary use? There is from memory an assassin at will that lets you get within a couple of squares of your target. As a single turn you move in, put that on whatever clothes they are about to put on, and then slip out of the room. Instant compliant kidnap victim/helpless target.
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Jul 23, 2017 19:58
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Zarick posted:Also, hybrid Fighter's Combat Challenge is specific that only Fighter powers mark Also worth noting that only fighter powers mark, but the fighter's Combat Challenge works with any generic mark from any source, so stuff like the Vigilante theme (encounter stance that lets you mark on a successful melee or ranged hit) or fighter powers like Kirre's Roar (level 6 utility) in heroic or going into Tactical Warpriest at paragon can help a great deal, as can situations where you hybrid into another defender and use their feature to lay down marks (Paladin's Divine Challenge/Divine Sanction, or Battlemind's Demand). Or even if you had the hypothetical situation where you had a bard with Misdirected Mark, I suppose, but that's pretty niche and even then kind of a waste of resources.
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Jul 23, 2017 21:11
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Zarick posted:So I tried building out a hybrid Fighter/Cleric, and it actually had higher defenses than the Fighter, while using a two-handed weapon instead of a shield. Problem is I was going with flails and there's no two-handed superior flail. The other problem is of course, how to decide between when to mark, because it won't be happening all the time now. I mean like we said, there's no perfect 100% Defender + Leader. You're gonna have to make sacrifices.
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Jul 23, 2017 22:01
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Zarick posted:So I tried building out a hybrid Fighter/Cleric, and it actually had higher defenses than the Fighter, while using a two-handed weapon instead of a shield. Problem is I was going with flails and there's no two-handed superior flail. The other problem is of course, how to decide between when to mark, because it won't be happening all the time now. In my experience most fights are effectively settled in two rounds, so I wouldn't worry about having a mark for every occasion unless you are an obsessive character design maximalist like me.
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Jul 23, 2017 22:06
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I'm still salty that WotC never contracted a company to make a Gamma World video game in the vein of XCOM.
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Jul 23, 2017 22:41
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I was checking the OP but a lot of links are dead at this point. Someone mentioned there is an offline character generator, but it took a bit of work to get going? Does anyone have a link to it or the post? Also, appreciate the help everyone is given so far. Today is Session 1, so I'm looking forward to see how it goes!
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Jul 25, 2017 15:57
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User0015 posted:I was checking the OP but a lot of links are dead at this point. Someone mentioned there is an offline character generator, but it took a bit of work to get going? Does anyone have a link to it or the post? My Discord channel has a bunch of stuff to help with DMing and help setting up the Offline Character Builder and Compendium
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Jul 25, 2017 23:03
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Mordiceius posted:I'm still salty that WotC never contracted a company to make a Gamma World video game in the vein of XCOM. And I'm salty WOTC never made a proper DnD 4e app where you can plug in pre-made dungeons/monsters and mess around with em to customize em, or make your own from scratch. Do you own the PDF for the second Monster Manual? Enter the special code into the app to add every single monster from that book to the special app! Play on your tablet! The app does all the math so you don't have to spend 90 minutes in every combat encounter! The premade dungeons mean you don't have to spend 16 hours preparing everything manually in maptools!
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Jul 26, 2017 21:44
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If there were a 4e computer game with turn based grid combat, I'd probably never play anything else
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Jul 26, 2017 22:11
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Pharmaskittle posted:If there were a 4e computer game with turn based grid combat, I'd probably never play anything else Would this fantasy dreamland game let you make a party of Arena Fighters beating everything to death with 1d10 damage household objects?  "Cut down a tree with a herring? Sure thing."
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Jul 27, 2017 01:27
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The 4E Facebook game, aside from running on a limited amount of "energy" per day that you could spend real money to get more of, was actually pretty well done. Sadly it disappeared into the ether when they started advertising 5E's impending release, and the 5E Facebook game that was to replace it never materialized (which is basically exactly in line with 5E).
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Jul 27, 2017 01:31
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Spiteski posted:My Discord channel has a bunch of stuff to help with DMing and help setting up the Offline Character Builder and Compendium Speaking of those: does anyone have experience getting them to run under Linux?
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Jul 27, 2017 01:56
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Darwinism posted:I've done something similar in games I've played in by giving people "RP feats" every 4 levels that could only be used on non-combat stuff, including utility powers that weren't directly combat related, I've only played one game that did that, but being able to create tools out of mind powers was really neat. Also challenging people to duels by slapping them with a ghost hand. There are a bunch of really neat feats out there, I wish I had a reason to use the vast majority of them.
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Jul 27, 2017 04:45
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dont even fink about it posted:In my experience most fights are effectively settled in two rounds, so I wouldn't worry about having a mark for every occasion unless you are an obsessive character design maximalist like me.  YMMV (a lot)
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Jul 27, 2017 06:18
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P.d0t posted:
In my current game, it was like that early on. The party was trashing equal or slightly higher level encounters usually before 3 full rounds had completed. I've kinda acclimated to their tactics now though, and they've started needing 4 full rounds because I've gotten better at hampering their ability to let the Ranger stand back and go ham while the warlord feeds him extra actions.
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Jul 27, 2017 06:22
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neonchameleon posted:There is from memory an assassin at will that lets you get within a couple of squares of your target. As a single turn you move in, put that on whatever clothes they are about to put on, and then slip out of the room. Instant compliant kidnap victim/helpless target. Immobilised doesn't mean compliant, it just means they can't leave their space. They can still punch you in the loving face.
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Jul 27, 2017 12:35
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Yeah, Immobilized is not the same as Restrained.
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Jul 27, 2017 20:20
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Restrained is a terrible condition to impose on someone you want to kidnap. Can't move them by force.
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Jul 27, 2017 20:26
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Plus they can still punch you in the loving face, it's just at a negative 2.
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Jul 27, 2017 22:03
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thespaceinvader posted:Immobilised doesn't mean compliant, it just means they can't leave their space. They can still punch you in the loving face. They can still resist. They just can't run away. Any PCs who can't take advantage of that aren't worthy of being PCs.
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Jul 28, 2017 01:28
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neonchameleon posted:They can still resist. They just can't run away. Any PCs who can't take advantage of that aren't worthy of being PCs. That depends on how often it's an enemy with teleportation  But it has come in handy in letting the melee people catch up to flying enemies trying to run off.
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Jul 28, 2017 03:47
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