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Labradoodle posted:The Wall Street Journal says the US could announce sanctions against PDVSA as early as tomorrow. They mention that banning oil imports isn't on the table yet, but they're considering halting exports of oil and refined products to Venezuela and restricting PDVSA's finances. poo poo's gonna get bleak. Oh wow. "We're not going to kill you, just stab you in the gut a bit."
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Jul 30, 2017 21:16
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Labradoodle posted:The Wall Street Journal says the US could announce sanctions against PDVSA as early as tomorrow. They mention that banning oil imports isn't on the table yet, but they're considering halting exports of oil and refined products to Venezuela and restricting PDVSA's finances. poo poo's gonna get bleak. This is effectively barring a vast amount of oil imports from Venezuela, as they have no reason to exist except for re-export of refined product. Guess Maduro's dead now.
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Jul 30, 2017 21:27
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Chuck Boone posted:Yes, it's looking like 8-10 killed so far. The explosion in Altamira was intense: It looks like a big Mortar firework, only not fired from a tube.
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Jul 30, 2017 21:54
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That piece of poo poo, Ciccariello-Maher, has an op-ed on that piece of poo poo website, Jacobin. I feel kind of bad linking it here, but he's a prominent-enough scumbag that I guess it's not any worse than linking to something Trump said. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/07/venezuela-elections-chavez-maduro-bolivarianism Filled with tons of lies and half-truths. I'm surprised he admits that Venezuela has gone to the dogs, though, and he attributes it in part to Maduro (for not being "revolutionary" enough). E: There are so many big loving holes in his thinking that I don't even know whether it's worth pointing it out, but one of the worst things about tankies to me is that they deplore violence and "those evil opposition have started a cascade of protests where > 100 people have died" and then in the next breath say "violent revolution is necessary to protect the gains of the proletariat. To arms, comrades!!" So violence is bad, unless you're the one doing it. Saladman fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Jul 30, 2017 |
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Jul 30, 2017 22:27
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Mierda. Fuerza Venezuela. 
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Jul 30, 2017 23:04
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Saladman posted:That piece of poo poo, Ciccariello-Maher, has an op-ed on that piece of poo poo website, Jacobin. I feel kind of bad linking it here, but he's a prominent-enough scumbag that I guess it's not any worse than linking to something Trump said. Violence is good when it furthers their chosen ideology. These are people that jerk off to fantasies of the Russian Revolution and Cuba in 1959. MullardEL34 fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Jul 30, 2017 |
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Jul 30, 2017 23:23
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Saladman posted:That piece of poo poo, Ciccariello-Maher, has an op-ed on that piece of poo poo website, Jacobin. I feel kind of bad linking it here, but he's a prominent-enough scumbag that I guess it's not any worse than linking to something Trump said. He's absolutely right.
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Jul 30, 2017 23:51
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The biggest show on TV tonight will be the head of the CNE, Tibisay Lucena, looking into a television camera and telling Venezuelans how many people voted the election today. The MUD is estimating that there was approximately 10-12% voter turnout, which would put the number of votes at around 2-2.2 million. Jorge Rodriguez (a PSUV big shot) was just on TV and said that there had "not been a single fatality" during today's vote. Of course, we know that in fact at least 13 people have been killed in violence around the country in the last day or so. When a reporter asked Rodriguez what he thought about the reports from the Public Ministry that at least seven people had been killed, Rodriguez laughed and said, "You mean the deaths reported by the soon-to-be former attorney general?", in reference to the fact that Luisa Ortega Diaz will probably be removed from her role by the Constituent Assembly very soon. Here's the clip: https://twitter.com/AlbertoRT51/status/891788379251200001
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Jul 31, 2017 00:15
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Chuck Boone posted:The biggest show on TV tonight will be the head of the CNE, Tibisay Lucena, looking into a television camera and telling Venezuelans how many people voted the election today. The MUD is estimating that there was approximately 10-12% voter turnout, which would put the number of votes at around 2-2.2 million. These people are comic book villains except they're real and hold an entire country hostage. Smh.
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Jul 31, 2017 01:01
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wdarkk posted:Oh wow. "We're not going to kill you, just stab you in the gut a bit." Sanctions against Venezuela are going to increase, the situation is going to get much worse, and the US will ensure that whatever government comes next is under their control.
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Jul 31, 2017 01:54
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MullardEL34 posted:Violence is good when it furthers their chosen ideology. I think this is a pretty standard and normal and okay attitude to have about violence. I would like for all violence to come to a final end, but not until after the entire world has been united by the triumph of my chosen ideology and all of the other ideologies have been completely defeated and swept away. Anyway, I've been watching the live TeleSur broadcast on their website. Earlier, there were some military dudes taking turns giving short speeches in front of a podium and I think they were talking about the victory of peace in Venezuela. Now the reporters are talking about how the vote is a victory for the revolution and a victory for democracy in Venezuela and random Venezuelans are being interviewed and expressing their enthusiasm about the election process. This stuff is pretty interesting! Someone just said Venezuelans voted in peace and are now celebrating with fireworks and music. I like the fast-paced electronic music playing in the background of the TeleSur live broadcast! But I don't process Spanish-language speech quickly enough to fully understand everything everyone is saying! In any case, the situation in Venezuela is super captivating to me! Hopefully there will not be a civil war in Venezuela! Edit: Ah, a guy on TeleSur just said "no color revolution"! And he also just a few seconds ago said "fake news" in English while still continuing to say everything else in Spanish! Updates from anyone who knows more about what's going on now in Venezuela than I do would be greatly appreciated! Thanks for reading this post! Super interesting thread! dildo sample pack fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 02:23
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Holy poo poo I think the world might implode from the irony of TeleSur talking about fake news.
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Jul 31, 2017 02:31
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Can anyone briefly explain who is doing bad poo poo in this situation? I've been trying to read up but am getting a lot of detail on events going on but nothing much deeper than that. Is it just everyone is bad, or is there a group that is genuinely endeavouring to do something good? My frame of reference is essentially that Hugo was pretty good, but he died and now it's an impenetrable all in brawl/shitshow that I'm struggling to get my head around. e: like I understand the economics and events that have led to this situation, I just don't understand what the factions involved actually stand for (if anything y'know) and what info that is being supplied is bullshit. JBP fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 02:38
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JBP posted:Can anyone briefly explain who is doing bad poo poo in this situation? I've been trying to read up but am getting a lot of detail on events going on but nothing much deeper than that. Is it just everyone is bad, or is there a group that is genuinely endeavouring to do something good? My frame of reference is essentially that Hugo was pretty good, but he died and now it's an impenetrable all in brawl/shitshow that I'm struggling to get my head around. Whatever we may say about Hugo Chavez, what Maduro and his people have done with chavismo is something else entirely. Maduro barely won the presidential election against the opposition candidate in 2013 (he got 50.6% of the vote). Every since seen, Maduro and the PSUV most of their support. Maduro consistently polls at around the 20% mark. Maduro and the PSUV are so unpopular that they cancelled two electoral processes last year because they knew they were going to lose them. So as of last year, what we've had in Venezuela is an increasingly authoritarian regime that remains in power simply by not having elections. The regime also essentially eliminated the National Assembly (our congress) because people voted in an opposition majority. In May, Maduro announced this Constituent Assembly. Maduro argued that it was necessary to write a whole new constitution in order to bring peace and stability to Venezuela. Most people said, "Wait, hang on -- instead of writing a new constitution, why don't you just follow the one you have?". Ironically, the constitution currently in place is the one that Chavez wrote in 1999. So, despite everything that tankies, Telesur and the regime will tell you, the opposition is actually fighting to defend Chavez's constitution! Two weeks ago, the Venezuelan people said, "Alright, if the government won't let us have elections, we'll just hold our own!". They organized a plebiscite, and over 7 million people voted to demand immediate general elections, among other things.The government just ignored the vote. In short, if you're looking for "the bad guys", it's a handful of wealthy elites who have lined their pockets after years and years in power, and who are outright cancelling electoral processes in order to remain in power. The regime and its propaganda outlets will point to individual instances of protester violence, but an entire nation of 30+ million people is being brutalized by a corrupt authoritarian government every single day. gr8ful4theseforums posted:I think this is a pretty standard and normal and okay attitude to have about violence. Sure. But thankfully, we've found other ways to work out our political differences that don't involve slaughtering each others until the most brutal of us remains. This is precisely why we have elections: so that we can transfer power from one group to another without outbreaks of violence. In a democracy, you have elections whenever the law says you have to have elections, regardless of what the guy in power says. In Venezuela, we only have elections when the guy in power says we have elections. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 02:58
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Bob le Moche posted:Sanctions against Venezuela are going to increase, the situation is going to get much worse, and the US will ensure that whatever government comes next is under their control. The US does not have a good success rate at ensuring the resulting government is actually under their control post meddling, so I sort of doubt they have that ability, especially in the shape they are in now. They will certainly try to gently caress things up though. JBP posted:Can anyone briefly explain who is doing bad poo poo in this situation? I've been trying to read up but am getting a lot of detail on events going on but nothing much deeper than that. Is it just everyone is bad, or is there a group that is genuinely endeavouring to do something good? My frame of reference is essentially that Hugo was pretty good, but he died and now it's an impenetrable all in brawl/shitshow that I'm struggling to get my head around. The Opposition has lots of different factions in it and many of them are genuinely trying to do good. Most of them are busy right now simply trying to prevent bad stuff though, even if they are also bad.
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Jul 31, 2017 03:49
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Speaking of TeleSur: Link Responses are all about CIA plots and the OP arguing with a Venezuelan about how he voted for in the "fake oligarch election" so he knows what side he's one. 
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Jul 31, 2017 03:52
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Still waiting for tankies to explain how a US puppet government would be any worse than the one Venezuela has now.
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Jul 31, 2017 04:40
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ugh its Troika posted:Still waiting for tankies to explain how a US puppet government would be any worse than the one Venezuela has now. It would be US-supported/aligned so it would be deontologically worse than any kind of regime or government that is not US-supported/aligned.
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Jul 31, 2017 04:44
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ugh its Troika posted:Still waiting for tankies to explain how a US puppet government would be any worse than the one Venezuela has now. You don't have a tankie to not think being a US colony is good.
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Jul 31, 2017 04:56
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The Electoral Council is claiming that over 8 million people voted in today's election. It was obvious they were going to lie, but it's amazing they went with a number that almost matches Chavez's highest voter turnout (approx 8.1 million votes) back in his heyday. Anyway, I guess now we'll see how the regime reacts to international sanctions. The move against PDVSA will affect the entire country, but it might move the military to unseat Maduro once they stop getting their checks. I'm not holding my breath for a good outcome, though.
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Jul 31, 2017 04:59
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ugh its Troika posted:Still waiting for tankies to explain how a US puppet government would be any worse than the one Venezuela has now. Isn't it funny how these things always start with "It's not about class or US imperialism it's about democracy and freedom against a corrupt authoritarian government" and end with "Actually a right-wing CIA puppet regime is good"
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Jul 31, 2017 05:15
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ugh its Troika posted:Still waiting for tankies to explain how a US puppet government would be any worse than the one Venezuela has now. The right-wing opposition will be unable to solve the economic crisis. Instead they'll implement a program of eviscerating social services in a bid to draw in IMF and World Bank loans, immiserating the poor who were finally granted a measure of security under Chavez, while doing nothing to fix the fundamental problems with the Venezuelan economy and enriching the most corrupt. They are also brutal, brutal people. Just today they murdered a Bolivarian candidate in his sleep, detonated an IED on a pass police convoy, and shot at least one police officer dead. The Latin American right are not nice people. They will kill many, just like they did back during the 2002 coup, but you won't read about it in the papers you the way you do with Maduro's crimes.
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Jul 31, 2017 05:16
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Bob le Moche posted:Isn't it funny how these things always start with "It's not about class or US imperialism it's about democracy and freedom against a corrupt authoritarian government" and end with "Actually a right-wing CIA puppet regime is good" "I think the US should be rolling the tanks in Caracas, and for that reason I'll call anyone who disagrees a tankie"
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Jul 31, 2017 05:18
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The right wing opposition where two of the three largest parties in it are members of Socialist International
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Jul 31, 2017 05:26
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Mexico's PRI is in the Socialist International so it's not really a stamp of honest, left wing politics. And probably more damningly Blair's Labour Party was a member.
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Jul 31, 2017 05:31
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The amount of time some people in this thread spend talking about the opposition's credentials and ideology is pretty impressive considering they probably can't name a couple of their parties, its leaders, or know the first thing about their policies. Today the government brazenly held a sham election, killed over a dozen people, and you're debating whether a collection of parties you don't know the first thing about is a better alternative than a violent dictatorship. Come on.
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Jul 31, 2017 05:36
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Did all the tankies come out of the rock they were living under or something? Anyhow, Tibisay Lucena just announced 8 million people voted for the sham that is the constitutional assembly, which is impossible seeing how Maduro got less votes than that in the presidential election. It really isn't hard to see just how much of a fraud it is and the international community is calling it out for what it is. Thug Lessons posted:The right-wing opposition will be unable to solve the economic crisis. Instead they'll implement a program of eviscerating social services in a bid to draw in IMF and World Bank loans, immiserating the poor who were finally granted a measure of security under Chavez, while doing nothing to fix the fundamental problems with the Venezuelan economy and enriching the most corrupt. They are also brutal, brutal people. Just today they murdered a Bolivarian candidate in his sleep, detonated an IED on a pass police convoy, and shot at least one police officer dead. The Latin American right are not nice people. They will kill many, just like they did back during the 2002 coup, but you won't read about it in the papers you the way you do with Maduro's crimes. Just look at how many people the government have killed. Just look at how many people aren't eating under Maduro's rule. Just look at how corrupt the upper echelons of PSUV are. You could have read the thread for maybe 5 or so pages before posting instead of saying such loving drivel. fnox fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 05:36
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Agnosticnixie posted:You don't have a tankie to not think being a US colony is good. It's literally a country that behaves like a particularly incompetent CIA installed 1980s Latin American dictatorship/pseudo democracy right now, up to and including abrogation of a leftist leader's constitution, suppression and invalidation of elections, and massive military involvement in governance. So it's literally behaving like a US colony now, even including massive import/export flows with the US. What's the thing worse than this that you expect to happen?
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Jul 31, 2017 05:40
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fishmech posted:It's literally a country that behaves like a particularly incompetent CIA installed 1980s Latin American dictatorship/pseudo democracy right now, up to and including abrogation of a leftist leader's constitution, suppression and invalidation of elections, and massive military involvement in governance. You know what would make things a whole lot better? Keeping all that, but also pulling the rug out from under poor Venezuelans.
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Jul 31, 2017 05:43
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fnox posted:Just look at how many people the government have killed. Just look at how many people aren't eating under Maduro's rule. Just look at how corrupt the upper echelons of PSUV are. They haven't killed that many people. Even if we assumed they were responsible for every protest-related death they'd have to keep going at this rate for another couple centuries to reach the level of historical right-wing governments in Latin America.
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Jul 31, 2017 05:45
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Thug Lessons posted:You know what would make things a whole lot better? Keeping all that, but also pulling the rug out from under poor Venezuelans. They're already dying under Maduro you dolt. There's no food, no medicines, the "missions" don't work and on top of everything they have to worry about the military stomping their loving heads. The poor are currently not doing better than what how they would be doing in your fictitious version of an opposition government. Thug Lessons posted:They haven't killed that many people. Even if we assumed they were responsible for every protest-related death they'd have to keep going at this rate for another couple centuries to reach the level of historical right-wing governments in Latin America. They've killed a couple hundred people, including 13 today. They've killed many more to negligence, and extrajudiciary killings. Get the gently caress out.
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Jul 31, 2017 05:46
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Thug Lessons posted:You know what would make things a whole lot better? Keeping all that, but also pulling the rug out from under poor Venezuelans. Uh, the rug got pulled out from under them years ago, by Maduro. You actually pretend the poor have a safety net in modern Venezuela where the hospitals don't have medicine and the government stores no longer have food? You pretend they can afford the black market hustlers?
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Jul 31, 2017 05:46
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How many people are the PSUV allowed to kill before its too many? How high is inflation allowed to go and basic goods be shorted before its accepted as the mismanaged kleptocracy it is?
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Jul 31, 2017 05:49
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fishmech posted:Uh, the rug got pulled out from under them years ago, by Maduro. You actually pretend the poor have a safety net in modern Venezuela where the hospitals don't have medicine and the government stores no longer have food? You pretend they can afford the black market hustlers? Yeah, I am saying that. There's an actual social safety net, which is why Venezuela is not in mass famine despite shortages, and I would prefer to keep it that way rather than consigning them to the mercy of the market and right-wing death squads that the alternative promises.
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Jul 31, 2017 05:50
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Amused to Death posted:How many people are the PSUV allowed to kill before its too many? How high is inflation allowed to go and basic goods be shorted before its accepted as the mismanaged kleptocracy it is? I agree, it's high time we let the right take charge and see if they can kill more. Today's IED didn't kill a single Bolivarian. Let's give them tanks and planes.
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Jul 31, 2017 05:52
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Thug Lessons posted:Yeah, I am saying that. There's an actual social safety net, which is why Venezuela is not in mass famine despite shortages, and I would prefer to keep it that way rather than consigning them to the mercy of the market and right-wing death squads that the alternative promises. There isn't a loving social safety net. I saw people eating from garbage bags. There is a famine happening right loving now. Prices are already at the mercy of the market because you can't find poo poo from government sources so you have to get it through the black market. You're more of a literal tankie than Bob ever was.
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Jul 31, 2017 05:53
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fnox posted:There isn't a loving social safety net. I saw people eating from garbage bags. There is a famine happening right loving now. Prices are already at the mercy of the market because you can't find poo poo from government sources so you have to get it through the black market. I believe you'll find you're the one eating from a garbage bag.
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Jul 31, 2017 05:54
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fishmech posted:Uh, the rug got pulled out from under them years ago, by Maduro. You actually pretend the poor have a safety net in modern Venezuela where the hospitals don't have medicine and the government stores no longer have food? You pretend they can afford the black market hustlers? Technically the rug got pulled out from under them by Chavez not diversifying the economy enough, then the Saudi Arabians tanking the price of oil globally, hitting countries like Venezuela the hardest with it being, frankly, their only export.
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Jul 31, 2017 05:55
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Amused to Death posted:How many people are the PSUV allowed to kill before its too many? How high is inflation allowed to go and basic goods be shorted before its accepted as the mismanaged kleptocracy it is? Allowed by who? By the people of Venezuela? That's up to them to decide. By Donald Trump, the CIA, and international business interests? They need to keep their hands off, but they won't. Bob le Moche fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 05:55
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Amused to Death posted:How many people are the PSUV allowed to kill before its too many? How high is inflation allowed to go and basic goods be shorted before its accepted as the mismanaged kleptocracy it is? I'm not even sure why people are willing to die on the hill of defending some dipshit bus driver who got to become president of a country then burned it to the loving ground like some disney movie from bizarro land.
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Jul 31, 2017 05:56
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