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SavageGentleman posted:Wow, crazy stuff!http://www.esotericarchives.com/oracle/iambl_th.htm Honestly, I woudn't take Iamblichus' word on anything regarding actual ancient pagan practice. The later Neoplatonists tend to play with a highly intellectualized image of what pagan cults should have been like - it's not for nothing that when the Emperor Julian tried to revive pagan practices - conceived in a Iamblichan vein - against the rising tide of Christianity, the pagans on the street found what he was selling unrecognizable and unappealing. Basically, trusting in Iamblichus would be more or less analogous to some future archaeologist trying to understand liturgical Christianity as practiced by the average believer based on this thread alone.
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Jul 24, 2017 00:39
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While he's perhaps not a perfect resource, he came a generation before Julian the apostate, and honestly what better resource do we have? Serious, not rhetorical question.
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Jul 24, 2017 03:38
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Well, you have depictions of cultic practices in a large number of poetic and prose texts, histories, rhetorical works, the "ancient novels," ritual manuals, travelogues from the era when temple tourism was definitely a thing, Roman legislation pertaining to cults, votary inscriptions, random letters written by someone or other who visited some temple, depictions of ritual practice in the visual arts - there's really no shortage of sources. Granted, it's all but impossible to pull a unified portrait out of all of it, but that's because it was really quite diverse in practice. And yes, Julian was later, but he was supposedly educated by one of Iamblichus' pupils. He basically mashes up his upside-down Christianity with the later strains of Neoplatonism and calls it pagan. That's not at all a difficult thing to do, since with their fixation on the One, the later Neoplatonists weren't really very far from being monotheists already. That's also why Proclean Neoplatonism can so easily become Christian when it is taken up by pseudo-Dionysius.
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Jul 24, 2017 04:09
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Numerical Anxiety posted:Iamblichus would have been basically unknown in the Latin West during the Middle Ages, so there's probably no direct line to be drawn. In a way, he was aware of Iamblichus, I just don't think he really knew it. Aquinas does have access to Porphyry's Letter To Anebo since he quotes it in Summa Contra Gentiles and gets most of his arguments about theurgy from it. In a way, he was continuing Porphyry's fight against Iamblichus' idea that magicians can, through their own human will or action, manifest supernatural effects. Rather it must be an invocation of another intelligence, but definitely not celestial bodies. But the fact that Aquinas never attacked Iamblichus' arguments against Porphyry in De Mysterii seems to indicate that he never had Iamblichus' response to the Letter To Anebo, because that would be rather out of character of Aquinas to know about arguments and not object to them.
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Jul 24, 2017 04:57
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HopperUK posted:Hahaha I love how cross the wizard chap is there. When you are QUITE done pissing about This is more or less how my interactions with forest spirits go. Buggers love singing and dancing around a lot more than paying attention and being a convenience in any way at all 
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Jul 24, 2017 17:26
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Numerical Anxiety posted:Well, you have depictions of cultic practices in a large number of poetic and prose texts, histories, rhetorical works, the "ancient novels," ritual manuals, travelogues from the era when temple tourism was definitely a thing, Roman legislation pertaining to cults, votary inscriptions, random letters written by someone or other who visited some temple, depictions of ritual practice in the visual arts - there's really no shortage of sources. Granted, it's all but impossible to pull a unified portrait out of all of it, but that's because it was really quite diverse in practice. I haven't read the Satyricon, but I have read Apuleius' Metamorphosis, and it really isn't something you could reconstruct a cult of Isis from.
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Jul 24, 2017 21:44
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CountFosco posted:I haven't read the Satyricon, but I have read Apuleius' Metamorphosis, and it really isn't something you could reconstruct a cult of Isis from. Not to mention that the cult depicted in it is heavily influenced by Apuleius's own Platonism. Honestly our best written evidence in this regard is inscriptional rather than literary.
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Jul 24, 2017 22:59
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CountFosco posted:I haven't read the Satyricon, but I have read Apuleius' Metamorphosis, and it really isn't something you could reconstruct a cult of Isis from. Of course not? That's why studies of these things tend to collate whatever fragments can be gleaned from a range of sources, and try to account for differences of period, locale, authorial interest and all that. It's often nebulous work, to be sure, but one works with what one has.
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Jul 24, 2017 23:47
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so, if i were to get another tattoo, would y'all recommend virtu or ἀρετή?
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Jul 28, 2017 14:26
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my biases in this matter are known to the thread
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Jul 28, 2017 16:31
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I'd go with virtus because more people will be able to read it and probably even know what it means. If it's in a place or font where people won't be able to read it either way I'd get arete because it sounds nice. j/k I'd get 随处体认天理 because that's really close to "find God in all things" which is a good motto imo
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Jul 28, 2017 18:12
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HEY GAIL posted:so, if i were to get another tattoo, would y'all recommend virtu or ἀρετή? I looked up both words to see their individual nuances but at the end of the day I just think the Greek is more visually appealing.
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Jul 28, 2017 18:46
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I'd definitely go with the Greek. Mind you all I have to go on is an anthropology major friend of mine once explained to me the Roman conception of virtus, plus my general sense the modern meaning of the word, but going for the Greek still just seems to be more precise.
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Jul 28, 2017 18:53
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poo poo i forgot the difference between latin and italian again
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Jul 28, 2017 18:57
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Machiavelli's fault for mixing them
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Jul 28, 2017 21:16
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Disinterested posted:Machiavelli's fault for mixing them
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Jul 28, 2017 21:26
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HEY GAIL posted:ya that's who i was thinking of I knew
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Jul 29, 2017 06:44
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I say forget the latin and the greek, and just go for "excellence." Deans love their excellence in teaching, in ethics, in whatever else needs be marketed this quarter. If you have excellence etched into your very flesh, how could you not beat the academic market?
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Jul 29, 2017 07:10
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Numerical Anxiety posted:I say forget the latin and the greek, and just go for "excellence." Deans love their excellence in teaching, in ethics, in whatever else needs be marketed this quarter. If you have excellence etched into your very flesh, how could you not beat the academic market?
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Jul 29, 2017 09:54
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HEY GAIL posted:TENURE on my arm with a banner and a bleeding dagger the dean looks at it and says "you kids with your ironic tattoos"
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Jul 29, 2017 11:28
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Asking advice: Considering picking up either Greek or Russian. As I'm joining the Russian Orthodox, that seems a point in favor of Russian (I want to visit Russia in my lifetime). However, there are points in favor of Greek as well. Getting into the septaguint, may be more useful should I travel to Athos, other Greeek areas which I also want to visit. However, with Greek, there's the question of which Greek to get into, Archaic, Koine, or modern. I guess there's the whole old slavonic/modern Russian problem as well, but there it seems a bit simpler, just learn modern Russian. So I'm leaning towards Russian, especially as the church I go to has a friendly Russian reader who would be willing to give me tips and such, but the academic in me is still tempted by learning Greek, with the allure of its history of philosophy and early church history. Thoughts?
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Jul 29, 2017 16:40
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classical greek. koine is for pussies.
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Jul 29, 2017 18:42
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HEY GAIL posted:classical greek. koine is for pussies. Yeah - Koine is not so different from classical, most of the changes are simplifications of the grammar. So if you can read Classical, you can read Koine pretty much without issue - the opposite will not necessarily be the case. And if you want to read the Eastern Fathers, a number of whom atticize anyway, you might as well know your Attic.
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Jul 29, 2017 19:11
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the plus to learning russian is it can help you get a government job. the minus is everyone and their cousin's being sent to russian language schools by the government so it's a teacher's market right now
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Jul 29, 2017 20:58
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In the weirdest moment ever, my Orthodox priest told me I need to think about myself more and take better care of myself What a world
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Jul 30, 2017 00:39
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is that anything like the time a deaf man told my mother she talked too much
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Jul 30, 2017 00:51
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Smoking Crow posted:In the weirdest moment ever, my Orthodox priest told me I need to think about myself more and take better care of myself well, maybe you should.
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Jul 30, 2017 05:43
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CountFosco posted:Asking advice: There are plenty of Russian monks on Athos, so go for Russian, imo. For tourism, really, all you need is English.
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Jul 30, 2017 15:01
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http://www.salon.com/2017/07/29/from-the-enlightenment-to-the-dark-ages-how-new-atheism-slid-into-the-alt-right It's sad to see how the author is still stuck deeply in the intellectual and political mud of New Atheism without even realising it. Are we at war with Islam? Well yes, but it would be politically impudent to say so. Are black people inherently inferior to whites? We just don't know, and as a ~rationalist~ I'll gracefully refrain from taking a stand. It really galls me how so many self-proclaimed “critical thinkers“ don't have the slightest clue not only about theology, but also about how religion entails so much more than just the faith-based aspects of it. But knowing about this stuff would mean familiarising yourself with things like cultural studies and history, and because those never produce anything you could post on the “I loving love SCIENCE“ Facebook page they clearly must be worthless. Maybe the author of this piece isn't as bad (I haven't read his other articles), but reading this didn't give me much hope in this regard.
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Jul 30, 2017 15:10
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System Metternich posted:http://www.salon.com/2017/07/29/from-the-enlightenment-to-the-dark-ages-how-new-atheism-slid-into-the-alt-right Slowly, slowly I have come to realise that in public discourse, the words "logical" and "rational" mean "agrees with me". All words are only fit to be shouted anymore. I am rational and moral and telling it like it is, you are disingenuous and hysterical and probably a fascist. I don't need to listen to you because I already know that you are bad. I don't know if the discussion has always been this poisonous: I used to see myself firmly on one side, so portraying the people on the "other side" as evil nutjobs seemed fair to me then. Now whenever I hear somebody talk about politics or religion I just get sad.
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Jul 30, 2017 16:57
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The fact that today's self-avowed "skeptics" are just another brand of dogmatism would make me smile, if they weren't so forceful about evoking a thorough cringe.
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Jul 30, 2017 17:05
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Numerical Anxiety posted:The fact that today's self-avowed "skeptics" are just another brand of dogmatism would make me smile, if they weren't so forceful about evoking a thorough cringe. The concept of a "secular religion" really makes sense in that context. I kinda fail to see the psychological advantages of binding oneself to and fervently defending a worldview which sees humans as badly-built meat-sacks on a socio-darwinistic race to the bottom - but I'm sure these advantages must exist. [edit:Looking at myself: I accepted that worldview mainly due to a)respect for the seemingly endless possibilities of science to explain the universe (still love the scientific method, just not scientism) b) the fact that this worldview is supported by almost all institutions & influencers c) I grew up with self-esteem issues and the concept of a hopeless, cold universe where chance-generated meatsacks hosed each other up just because they can 'harmonized' nicely with that] Also personally, as someone rediscovering Christianity after bad experiences in childhood/youth, I would really love to see (Catholic) christianity stop trying to fit into the contemporary mechanistic worldview and embrace its 'supernatural' aspects: Mysticism, ritual, angels, approachable saints, relics, prayer, incense, whatever happens during transsubstantiation - bring on the mindbending sh*t!! SavageGentleman fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Jul 30, 2017 |
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Jul 30, 2017 17:27
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SavageGentleman posted:The concept of a "secular religion" really makes sense in that context. I kinda fail to see the psychological advantages of binding oneself to and fervently defending a worldview which sees humans as badly-built meat-sacks on a darwinistic race to the bottom - but I'm sure these advantages must exist. so you want orthodoxy
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Jul 30, 2017 17:36
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I don't think it is advantageous for a Christian to make their evangelization about debating or supplanting cosmology if it does not support the universal logos of Christ: the will to love (ie, the desire to make right) oneself, one's neighbors, and all of reality.
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Jul 30, 2017 21:17
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pidan posted:Slowly, slowly I have come to realise that in public discourse, the words "logical" and "rational" mean "agrees with me". All words are only fit to be shouted anymore. I am rational and moral and telling it like it is, you are disingenuous and hysterical and probably a fascist. I don't need to listen to you because I already know that you are bad. You find hints of it Aristotle already, it's not new. But I do suspect that the tenor has increased in these, the twilight years of democracy. Any dissent from the shallow pool of piss we call truth is deemed a personal attack, because somehow we're all too fragile to tolerate the possibility that someone, somewhere might disagree with us.
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Jul 30, 2017 21:48
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Read Ratzinger's Introduction to Christianity and it was very nice. Are his Jesus books as good? Do they contain the same amount of "Academic yells about how wrong everyone else is and how can they be this stupid?" ?
The Belgian fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Jul 30, 2017 |
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Jul 30, 2017 22:34
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I know a lot of people for whom politics fulfills the role of a secular religion, giving them purpose in their lives. But politics, unlike God, doesn’t offer forgiveness.
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Jul 31, 2017 00:19
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Numerical Anxiety posted:You find hints of it Aristotle already, it's not new. But I do suspect that the tenor has increased in these, the twilight years of democracy. Any dissent from the shallow pool of piss we call truth is deemed a personal attack, because somehow we're all too fragile to tolerate the possibility that someone, somewhere might disagree with us. Maybe it's because we keep being confronted by the belief that the world seems a cold place devoid of any intrinsic meaning, and as that belief becomes more visible to an increasingly large number of people, (through 24 hour rolling news continual updates on social media etc) feel that there is less meaning in their own lives. We try and find places of safety because everywhere is constantly reminding you of all the things that are wrong, with ourselves and the world. Its also due to that that mystic understandings of the world are helpful, but because they always tend to be personal they are hard to find and, even worse, hard to contextualise.
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Jul 31, 2017 00:36
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Episcopalian who has been lurking here for about a year. Just wanted to say I have loved every minute reading this thread.
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Jul 31, 2017 01:18
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Went to the first Mass following the renovation of the sanctuary at my parish. New padding in the pews -and- on the kneelers...ahhh!
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Jul 31, 2017 01:31
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