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if you can't reason out that a pike is basically the reductio ad absurdam of the spear, without even having seen one in use, then smh
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Jul 31, 2017 14:23
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I just realised that Lindybeige is the MilHist equivalent of Sargon of Akkad. Idiot guy with a youtube channel who speaks authoritatively in a British accent which makes his opinions sound much more important than they actually are. They both have the same allergy to actual research, too.HEY GAIL posted:which reminds me, i just read a thing that said that commanders preferred lots of pikemen for a charge, or to storm a breach, not only because pikes were better for that than muskets but because the pikemen were often the more experienced soldiers, and therefore more spirited attackers Interestingly i've seen quotes from soldiers who fought at D-Day that the opposite was true there - the fact that most of the US troops storming the beaches hadn't seen combat before allowed them to take risks they never would have done a few years later.
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Jul 31, 2017 14:24
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Kemper Boyd posted:I really hope you watched his videos about why tank platoons have four tanks because of Biotruths. Please expand...
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Jul 31, 2017 14:32
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steinrokkan posted:Please expand...
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Jul 31, 2017 14:38
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MikeCrotch posted:Interestingly i've seen quotes from soldiers who fought at D-Day that the opposite was true there - the fact that most of the US troops storming the beaches hadn't seen combat before allowed them to take risks they never would have done a few years later.
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Jul 31, 2017 15:21
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I too derive all of my historical knowledge from playing rome total war and really if you think about it phalanxes beat legions all the time the greeks obviously just didn't know how to use them properly you just have to park them in a line between the buildings and all the romans come and run onto the pikes and die it's easy god how could you not get that stupid greeks.HEY GAIL posted:that is interesting--i wonder what accounts for the difference? I figure with hand to hand fighting you might believe you can drive off the enemy or beat them in a fight, at least, if you get stuck in. Whereas with machineguns you don't develop an increasing sense of your resistance to bullets. Veteran troops in WW2 are people who have probably seen shitloads of their mates die through lack of caution. Also formation fighting maybe? You want to get the whole formation of pikes into the fray whereas WW2 involves more small team fighting giving more room for individual caution, where you very definitely don't want to commit everyone at once until you know you're not walking into an enemy enfilade. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 15:23
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OwlFancier posted:I too derive all of my historical knowledge from playing rome total war and really if you think about it phalanxes beat legions all the time the greeks obviously just didn't know how to use them properly you just have to park them in a line between the buildings and all the romans come and run onto the pikes and die it's easy god how could you not get that stupid greeks. pffft, amateur, you don't need buildings, you can just corner camp, that way nobody can ever flank you.
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Jul 31, 2017 15:34
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I don't know if D-Day's a really good example. What else are you going to do besides run up the incredibly exposed beach to a sand wall while dodging raking fire from various machine guns set up in bunkers and trenches?
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Jul 31, 2017 15:41
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The Lone Badger posted:Yeah, they were the early-modern equivalent of suppressible fire. You use the threat of the pikes to hold an enemy formation in place while your maneuver element (armed with swords) flanks them and does the real killing. Asking the people who actually know how this works: if an enemy force tried to actually use this tactic against you, what would you end up doing to counter it?
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Jul 31, 2017 15:48
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chitoryu12 posted:Asking the people who actually know how this works: if an enemy force tried to actually use this tactic against you, what would you end up doing to counter it?
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Jul 31, 2017 15:50
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[tercio voice] what's a flank?
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Jul 31, 2017 15:53
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P-Mack posted:[tercio voice] what's a flank?   
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Jul 31, 2017 15:55
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MikeCrotch posted:
How many US units or even Allied units would have combat experience prior to d-day? Pacific theatre I assume doesn't contrivute, only Italian and African theatre troops would have combat experience but I think that the Italian front wouldn't contribute in the same vein as the Pacific theatre, you have only the men from the African campaign.
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Jul 31, 2017 16:07
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If you're taking personal experience with naval landings yeah not much but there was tons of institutional knowledge by that point. USMC advisors were three for dday and the Army had five plenty in the pacific as well. If you're talking general combat plenty of people who has been doing that as well in m Africa and Italy. More raw soldiers of course but that experience was there in places.
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Jul 31, 2017 16:19
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Also happy 100th panache deli.
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Jul 31, 2017 16:20
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That should be a Paschendelle but the autocorrect is funny.
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Jul 31, 2017 16:20
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Sicily Landings helped somewhat in terms of what happens when your air/naval assets don't cooperate successfully.
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Jul 31, 2017 16:22
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Cyrano4747 posted:panache deli. landsknecht cake?
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Jul 31, 2017 16:22
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HEY GAIL posted:he does not believe pikes were used to stab How in the actual gently caress could a person believe this? "Ah yes, this sixteen foot pole with a sharp metal point is definitely not for poking people far away" has to be the dumbest take. What does he think they were used for?
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Jul 31, 2017 16:25
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FishFood posted:How in the actual gently caress could a person believe this? "Ah yes, this sixteen foot pole with a sharp metal point is definitely not for poking people far away" has to be the dumbest take. What does he think they were used for? Clubs Specifically, Pole Vaulting
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Jul 31, 2017 16:27
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Clubs what?
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Jul 31, 2017 16:40
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FishFood posted:How in the actual gently caress could a person believe this? "Ah yes, this sixteen foot pole with a sharp metal point is definitely not for poking people far away" has to be the dumbest take. What does he think they were used for? Well you see, historical texts speak of "push of pike" and that means its just a shoving match of haft against haft. Obviously.
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Jul 31, 2017 16:41
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like a scrum in rugby
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Jul 31, 2017 16:43
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:what? Sports clubs?
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Jul 31, 2017 16:51
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Cyrano4747 posted:If you're talking general combat plenty of people who has been doing that as well in m Africa and Italy. More raw soldiers of course but that experience was there in places. Also, of course, and as discussed earlier in this thread, all the British guys who got out from Dunkirk...
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Jul 31, 2017 16:55
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Max Hastings has a bit in his Normandy/France books covering experience - it seems that units got better with experience as their fieldcraft and knowledge of enemy tactics improved, but then there's invariably a point that Allied commanders noticed where experience causes effectiveness to drop off a cliff as soldiers realise they've had too many close calls and lost too many friends and stop being willing to take risks to take the fight to the enemy. I'm pulling a number out of the air here, but my recollection was that a rule of thumb was that a division was at it's peak after 8 weeks of combat experience, and then could be expected to get worse.
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Jul 31, 2017 17:05
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Clubs No, they're for Clubbing, and specifically Pole dancing. Get it right! 
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Jul 31, 2017 17:07
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The US first division constituted the first wave on Omaha beach, probably the most experienced formation the US army had at the time of D-Day. Was involved in amphibious invasion of North Africa and Sicily and fighting all along the way. This formation was specifically selected because it was the most experienced. There were definitely cases of inexperienced soldiers doing extremely brave/stupid poo poo based on their inexperience but I would pick an experienced formation over an inexperienced one every time.
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Jul 31, 2017 17:08
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Chillyrabbit posted:How many US units or even Allied units would have combat experience prior to d-day? Pacific theatre I assume doesn't contrivute, only Italian and African theatre troops would have combat experience but I think that the Italian front wouldn't contribute in the same vein as the Pacific theatre, you have only the men from the African campaign. feedmegin posted:Also, of course, and as discussed earlier in this thread, all the British guys who got out from Dunkirk... They were apparently criticised (at least initially) for not being very aggressive, probably because they'd fought through North Africa and weren't too keen at being put into yet another major campaign.
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Jul 31, 2017 17:11
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Acebuckeye13 posted:No, they're for Clubbing, and specifically Pole dancing. Get it right! 
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Jul 31, 2017 17:11
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MikeCrotch posted:I just realised that Lindybeige is the MilHist equivalent of Sargon of Akkad. Idiot guy with a youtube channel who speaks authoritatively in a British accent which makes his opinions sound much more important than they actually are. They both have the same allergy to actual research, too. I thought for a bit you meant that the actual Sargon of Akkad was meant to have been a goony motherfucker by ancient sources or something and was very confused
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Jul 31, 2017 17:20
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One of the things i've read about ACW assault combat is that they had to really work to get the men to keep moving rather than stopping to shoot when assaulting because the temptation with a firearm is to want to use it and be safer so I suppose it makes sense if you're a pikeman the only way is forward.
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Jul 31, 2017 17:53
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Kemper Boyd posted:I really hope you watched his videos about why tank platoons have four tanks because of Biotruths. Whaaaaaa Please tell me Linda McBeige hasn't talked about naval history or else I might just strangle him before HEY GAL gets a chance. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 17:57
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feedmegin posted:Also, of course, and as discussed earlier in this thread, all the British guys who got out from Dunkirk... And probably a reasonable proportion of the expat regiments who fought as part of the British army.
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Jul 31, 2017 18:05
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Panzeh posted:One of the things i've read about ACW assault combat is that they had to really work to get the men to keep moving rather than stopping to shoot when assaulting because the temptation with a firearm is to want to use it and be safer so I suppose it makes sense if you're a pikeman the only way is forward.
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Jul 31, 2017 18:07
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So there's an anecdote from Guadalcanal that involves two RNZN corvettes, a Japanese submarine, and a Japanese swordsman. Is this old news to the thread, or...?
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Jul 31, 2017 18:19
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Nebakenezzer posted:So there's an anecdote from Guadalcanal that involves two RNZN corvettes, a Japanese submarine, and a Japanese swordsman. Is this old news to the thread, or...? Continue. Even if it weren't news it would be worth repeating.
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Jul 31, 2017 18:22
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Yvonmukluk posted:Churchill apparently specifically requested that the Desert Rats be sent to Normandy. Strange, because afaik British armour had learned nothing and continued to charge into AT fields in Normandy. tbh the Germans did the same thing right back at them. The biggest tank battle in Normandy was a goofy fizzle.
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Jul 31, 2017 18:49
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Panzeh posted:One of the things i've read about ACW assault combat is that they had to really work to get the men to keep moving rather than stopping to shoot when assaulting because the temptation with a firearm is to want to use it and be safer so I suppose it makes sense if you're a pikeman the only way is forward. You see this earlier, too. I recall the assaults on Redoubts 9 and 10 at Yorktown were done with unloaded muskets for this very reason - or maybe loaded but with strict orders not to reload? Either way, the gist was that the officers understood that reloading took time and they needed to close distance so it was hand to hand all the way.
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Jul 31, 2017 18:57
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FishFood posted:How in the actual gently caress could a person believe this? "Ah yes, this sixteen foot pole with a sharp metal point is definitely not for poking people far away" has to be the dumbest take. What does he think they were used for? Serious answer: His theory is that the first rank of a pike formation would die "instantly" once it moved into range (because apparently they wore armour only for funsies), so pike formations would just never actually attack each other. They'd just sort of amble up until they were almost in range and then just kind of stand there awkwardly waving their dicks at each other. And apparently the only reason why anybody used pikes in the first place was the hope that the enemy would just up and break in the face of a serious-looking (but not actually serious) charge, like with a bayonet charge in napoleonic warfare. He figured all that out from watching (apparently pretty garbage) re-enactors and talking to one of them once.
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Jul 31, 2017 19:02
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