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Stain kinda hates all heroes except All Might.
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Aug 2, 2017 00:50
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dogsicle posted:dunno if this came up already, but Stain taking down Ingenium always confused me. we see in the most recent ep that Ingenium was initially/partially motivated to hero out of a sense of obligation and tradition, but that was in a private conversation to his brother. outside of that i'm not really sure why Stain would have reason to make him a victim. are we just supposed to assume Stain infers this sort of thing somehow or that his adherence to absolutes make this a case where he made a mistake? Stain doesn't do research on heroes; he isn't batman. He tests them by fighting them and if they fight well then he decides they're badass enough to live; look at how he handled Midoriya. If they get beaten like Ingenium then the proof's in the pudding that they weren't proper heroes and were just showoffs. That's his perspective.
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Aug 2, 2017 00:51
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hmm. i like him less now
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Aug 2, 2017 00:56
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Maybe he singled him out because Ingenium is a pretty major celebrity hero, but yeah you imagine he does actual good work too so its kinda hypocritical of Stain. But like somebody said before Stain is so much the perfect summary of 90s anti-heroes. He's Punisher and TMNT and Cable and Wolverine; all those guys rolled into one. I like him as a character even if he is a bit of an edgelord who is too obsessed with his own "code". He's basically Rorschach as a villain.
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Aug 2, 2017 01:01
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stain has real strong convictions but hes also a straight up murderer in a story where i doubt the capacity to kill is supposed to be a positive or even neutral thing.
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Aug 2, 2017 01:03
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Stain has a litmus test of what a hero (Are you All Might enough?) should be and if you don't live up to it you're gonna get murdered.
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Aug 2, 2017 01:14
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Let's not forget that Stain only started respecting Deku when he landed a hit. It had nothing to do with his behavior.
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Aug 2, 2017 01:19
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I think Stain's philosophy is that if you're a pro hero -- i.e. you accept payment for your work -- you're fundamentally corrupt and need to be purged unless you go above and beyond and/or don't make that much. Midoriya was okay because he was All Might-like in his total commitment to saving others, and because (as a student) he's not getting paid to help people. Iida succeeded on the "free work" front but lost on the "save others before attaining revenge" front. Hence, Ingenium -- as a guy with a fairly extensive office, who must be raking in a fair amount of money for his work -- was Stain's target. EDIT: PMush Perfect posted:Let's not forget that Stain only started respecting Deku when he landed a hit. It had nothing to do with his behavior. Wait, really? I thought it was when he said "Butting in is one of the principal qualities of a hero." Like, Midoriya refuses to run away, Stain judges him true and worthy to be spared, leaves him paralyzed, goes on to try murdering Iida and Native.
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Aug 2, 2017 01:22
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dogsicle posted:dunno if this came up already, but Stain taking down Ingenium always confused me. we see in the most recent ep that Ingenium was initially/partially motivated to hero out of a sense of obligation and tradition, but that was in a private conversation to his brother. outside of that i'm not really sure why Stain would have reason to make him a victim. are we just supposed to assume Stain infers this sort of thing somehow or that his adherence to absolutes make this a case where he made a mistake? He pretty much targeted Ingenium because the guy makes money.
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Aug 2, 2017 01:22
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MonsterEnvy posted:He pretty much targeted Ingenium because the guy makes money. Right, but so does All Might and basically everybody. So its not that simple, is the thing. It reveals that Stain is kinda full of it. Like in theory you could say All Might gets money but doesn't do it for the money. But then can you say definitively you know Ingenium is doing it for the money? That's the thing.
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Aug 2, 2017 01:27
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Zaphod42 posted:Right, but so does All Might and basically everybody. So its not that simple, is the thing. It reveals that Stain is kinda full of it. Ingenium is said to have like 200+ sidekicks. He's making a lot of money presumably.
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Aug 2, 2017 01:28
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Poltergrift posted:Wait, really? I thought it was when he said "Butting in is one of the principal qualities of a hero." Like, Midoriya refuses to run away, Stain judges him true and worthy to be spared, leaves him paralyzed, goes on to try murdering Iida and Native.
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Aug 2, 2017 01:46
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Stain's a crazy serial killer who thinks Shigaraki deserved to live more than a lot of seemingly decent folk including children. He's utterly terrible and a huge goddamn hypocrite, but he does have conviction. And he does value All Might as like the ideal hero, and much like every character in the series Midoriya reminds him of All Might. Anyway Stain sucks.
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Aug 2, 2017 01:49
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Yeah that.
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Aug 2, 2017 01:50
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Stain's ideology is pretty obvious, if you do your heroing to save and help others and not for money you're good in his book, otherwise why the rant about "money worshipers" after he came back to Hosu? Ingenium is part of a long standing hero family, a family who has made their livelihood by being pro heroes, they are exactly the sort of people that Stain would target, part of the old guard, protecting a society that Stain sees as corrupt.SyntheticPolygon posted:Stain's a crazy serial killer who thinks Shigaraki deserved to live more than a lot of seemingly decent folk including children. lol, no, he did not think Shigaraki deserved to live, he thought he could use him to further his goals and then get rid of him afterwards. AVeryLargeRadish fucked around with this message at 01:58 on Aug 2, 2017 |
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Aug 2, 2017 01:55
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Ingenium is a celebrity with a large company that employs a lot of people. I'd imagine he also appears in commercials and stuff from time to time. That sort of "profiting off of fake heroism" is likely enough to trigger Stain's judgement, even if Ingenium wasn't a total rear end in a top hat like Endeavor. Keep in mind that All Might seems to be one of the few people who's actually hiding his real identity, meaning he's definitely not profiting off of his fame as much as he could be. Anyway, All Might's image as the selfless embodiment of invincible justice is the ideal Stain looks up to. But that requires being both selfless and invincible. In a strange way, he kind of buys into the same logic All Might himself uses as the Symbol of Justice: Justice can never show weakness of any kind, because people need to feel that he'll make everything better. A hero who is all talk can't live up to that.
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Aug 2, 2017 02:18
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:Stain's ideology is pretty obvious, if you do your heroing to save and help others and not for money you're good in his book, otherwise why the rant about "money worshipers" after he came back to Hosu? Ingenium is part of a long standing hero family, a family who has made their livelihood by being pro heroes, they are exactly the sort of people that Stain would target, part of the old guard, protecting a society that Stain sees as corrupt. He talks about how he's interested in seeing Shigaraki's conviction, that he wants to see how he'll grow and develop a creed. Then he'll decide whether to kill him afterwards based on that. It has nothing to do with Shigaraki being useful to his goals (Shiggy's the one who wants to use Stain until he decides he hates him too much), he mentions how although they both want to trash society they're complete opposites and the type of person he hates more than anyone. But even so Stain values Shigaraki's half-formed creed, and lets him live based on that. Anyway, it seems that to Stain if your philosophy as a hero meets his standards he won't kill you but it doesn't seem Stain actually researches the people he attacks or try to understand what they value or believe in. Because from everything we've seen of Tensei he's a sincerely good person. He's basically to Iida what All Might is to Deku, and a great role model to him. Stain has his convictions and his creed but he just judges people based on his own warped perceptions. He's insane.
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Aug 2, 2017 02:27
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Yeah, he doesn't really have a nose for people's true natures.
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Aug 2, 2017 02:30
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Ingenium is a regular workaday pro hero and thoroughly decent guy, rather than an inhuman paragon of selflessness and courage. Not good enough, gotta go.
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Aug 2, 2017 02:34
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SyntheticPolygon posted:He talks about how he's interested in seeing Shigaraki's conviction, that he wants to see how he'll grow and develop a creed. Then he'll decide whether to kill him afterwards based on that. It has nothing to do with Shigaraki being useful to his goals (Shiggy's the one who wants to use Stain until he decides he hates him too much), he mentions how although they both want to trash society they're complete opposites and the type of person he hates more than anyone. But even so Stain values Shigaraki's half-formed creed, and lets him live based on that. I went back and watched episode 15 and I hold by my interpretation of the Stain/Shigaraki conversation.
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Aug 2, 2017 02:58
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Zaphod42 posted:Right, but so does All Might and basically everybody. So its not that simple, is the thing. It reveals that Stain is kinda full of it. All Might actually lives in a fairly run down office, and it's confirmed he hands most of his government check off to charities.
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Aug 2, 2017 03:07
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It's not super complicated why Stain was killing seemingly random heroes and crippled Ingenium despite him being a pretty good dude. Stain lost the plot. His background is sympathetic, but he's gotten so loving pissed off (probably because his murders aren't "waking society up" because he apparently never bothered to explain to the world WHY HE IS KILLING PEOPLE) that basically everyone who isn't All Might is a fake until proven otherwise. He doesn't research- he's basically sure everyone's a phony unless they somehow prove otherwise right there when he shows up. Midoriya shows up, says the right words, then puts his life on the line to do the right thing for no promise of a reward in the face of overwhelming odds. That checks all of Stain's boxes, so he tries to spare him, goes easy on him in the fight, and then later saves him. Ingenium never had a chance. He chases Stain and confronts him, Stain sees another costumed rear end in a top hat with a big flashy agency and if he knows Iida's family then it's even worse because this dude is just doing it because his parents and grandparents did it. So he carves his loving spine out. Really- if I was Stain the dude I'd kill is All Might. I wouldn't be happy about it but All Might is in fact the pillar that holds up a world of what Stain considers fakes. All Might is a hero to such a point in power/charisma he holds crime in check just by existing- and this slack lets everyone else be fake. Endeavor being #2 basically proves it- Heroism is more than just being super efficient at beating up criminals but Endeavor doesn't have to check any boxes besides "I can own mentally ill people and street muggers super good" because oh poo poo look All MIGHT has the inspirational/intimidating presence of a top 100 list of heroes. tl;dr This is basically All Might's fault; his pillar of peace thing wasn't a good idea
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Aug 2, 2017 03:41
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My read of it is that every hero he's tried to kill so far (that we've seen, at least) is someone who almost went out of their way to hunt down the hero killer, not save somebody in need. Hell, Tensei is on his way to a call when he senses Stain in an alleyway, and turns around to get him. The only reason Deku and Todoroki get a pass is because they showed up to help someone. It's why Iida has to have his internal monologue weighing his "I'll kill you" statements against Deku's "I'll save you" statements. I'm not saying he's right, he's just set up a honeypot that heroes keep falling into. e: Or that he's not insane, or that this isn't flawed thinking. It's just a little bit more than idolization and insanity.
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Aug 2, 2017 04:00
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Fabricated posted:tl;dr This is basically All Might's fault; his pillar of peace thing wasn't a good idea I don't really want some manga guy to come in and tell me all about it, but it seems pretty obvious from what we've seen in the anime already that All Might's days are extremely limited. (Not only is he critically injured but it seems implied that transferring One For All means you're toast) I imagine that's going to create a major upheaval in the community, and probably bring way more villains out of the woodwork, raising the stakes for the next season or whatever.
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Aug 2, 2017 04:49
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My understanding is that it was hinted at that the nomus are being made by one of all might's predecessors, since that's the only known power that can transfer a quirk at all. I thought it was hinted to be the same person who injured all might too, but I'm not very sure on that. In any case my theory contradicts your theory about one for all
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Aug 2, 2017 05:29
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ninjewtsu posted:My understanding is that it was hinted at that the nomus are being made by one of all might's predecessors, since that's the only known power that can transfer a quirk at all. We know who injured All Might. He says it in like episode 2, its "Toxic Chainsaw" and he sounds like a bit villain and not the Big Bad we're building up to. But we'll see! That would be a fun twist too. There's definitely something going on about All Might's predecessor based on what Gran Torino said. I figured it was that he's dead since he gave his power to All Might, but I guess you may be correct that he's still around and is actually a villain now.
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Aug 2, 2017 05:34
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SpacePig posted:My read of it is that every hero he's tried to kill so far (that we've seen, at least) is someone who almost went out of their way to hunt down the hero killer, not save somebody in need. Hell, Tensei is on his way to a call when he senses Stain in an alleyway, and turns around to get him. The only reason Deku and Todoroki get a pass is because they showed up to help someone. It's why Iida has to have his internal monologue weighing his "I'll kill you" statements against Deku's "I'll save you" statements. I don't really think the native was hunting him, and Stain had to start somewhere, bore he was known. Honestly Stain is cool but he doesn't have an overarching idea just half backed tropes crunched together.
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Aug 2, 2017 05:43
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Zaphod42 posted:We know who injured All Might. He says it in like episode 2, its "Toxic Chainsaw" and he sounds like a bit villain and not the Big Bad we're building up to. You're misremembering that scene. Midoriya asks if it was Toxic Chainsaw when he heard it happened five years ago. All Might says it wasn't. It was a fight that the public doesn't know about.
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Aug 2, 2017 05:52
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Supgaiz posted:You're misremembering that scene. Midoriya asks if it was Toxic Chainsaw when he heard it happened five years ago. All Might says it wasn't. It was a fight that the public doesn't know about. I'm almost positive he says "that's pretty good kid, most people don't know about that fight". So it was him. Hmmm "Its an injury I got from an enemy five years ago" "Five years ago... was that when you fought with Toxic Chainsaw?" "You're well informed. But a punk like that couldn't defeat me. This fight was not made public to the world. I asked that it not be made public." I'm not misremembering; I misinterpreted. I see now my mistake. Its kinda ambiguous in the sub, I THOUGHT that All Might was saying "wow kid, I kept that from the public, so you're a real nerd for knowing about that fight. That guy couldn't defeat me but he did injure me..." but what he actually meant was "thats cool you knew about the toxic chainsaw fight, but no, it wasn't that one. It was a different one from that same time period. That punk couldn't defeat me, the one who did was much stronger."
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Aug 2, 2017 05:59
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dogsicle posted:dunno if this came up already, but Stain taking down Ingenium always confused me. we see in the most recent ep that Ingenium was initially/partially motivated to hero out of a sense of obligation and tradition, but that was in a private conversation to his brother. outside of that i'm not really sure why Stain would have reason to make him a victim. are we just supposed to assume Stain infers this sort of thing somehow or that his adherence to absolutes make this a case where he made a mistake? Stain is a loving psycho. "Don't listen to the logic of a murderer" was a really good line.
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Aug 2, 2017 06:09
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Eela6 posted:Stain is a loving psycho. "Don't listen to the logic of a murderer" was a really good line. It's also on point, because Stain's philosophy is riven with cracks. The big example is how he despises other heroes as mercenaries while putting All Might on a pedestal, but we were already shown that All Might himself got into the merchandising game; lil' babby Deku had All Might branded clothing and All Might toys and All Might posters. Stain is almost totally uninterested in results and consequences and completely interested in motivations, and his arbitrary judgement of a particular individual can change mercurially from moment to moment. There's not a lot of consistency in his philosophy besides a burning anger at the current state of society which has some legitimate roots(such as the hero Momo is interning with).
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Aug 2, 2017 06:52
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Moltrey posted:gently caress Stain, go Shigaraki.
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Aug 2, 2017 07:03
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Zaphod42 posted:Its kinda ambiguous in the sub
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Aug 2, 2017 07:33
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PMush Perfect posted:Yeah, this is one of those rare dubs where there's actual arguments of it being higher quality than the sub. Sub's got an issue with some awkward phrasing or unclear wording, probably from trying to translate things a bit too literally. The dub frees itself from that a bit, and so ends up flowing a bit better, even if some of the nuance changes. I have switched back and forth and seen some of both, my friends prefer the dub and its definitely not bad (Vegeta  ) but yeah that part of the sub kinda threw me. In retrospect it makes sense the other way too, but it was ambiguous.
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Aug 2, 2017 08:12
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Kanos posted:It's also on point, because Stain's philosophy is riven with cracks. The big example is how he despises other heroes as mercenaries while putting All Might on a pedestal, but we were already shown that All Might himself got into the merchandising game; lil' babby Deku had All Might branded clothing and All Might toys and All Might posters. Not really? Not sure where you're getting the mercenaries bit from, but he despises most heroes for treating heroing as a job, rather than as a calling - in the "legendary hero" sort of way. The sort of person who would go out and be a superhero, money or no, as opposed to simply rescuing people. And of course heroes of that sort need to be invincible as well, so just good intentions aren't enough in his book. Is this a remotely realistic look at a world where superpowers have become commonplace? Of course not, and it's completely unreasonable to hold everyone to the standard of a seeming paragon such as All Might, but it's not just about heroes making money or whatever.
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Aug 2, 2017 08:30
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Lord Koth posted:Not really? Not sure where you're getting the mercenaries bit from, but he despises most heroes for treating heroing as a job, rather than as a calling - in the "legendary hero" sort of way. The sort of person who would go out and be a superhero, money or no, as opposed to simply rescuing people. And of course heroes of that sort need to be invincible as well, so just good intentions aren't enough in his book. Direct from ep 28: Stain: "'Hero' is a title only given to those who have accomplished great deeds! There are too many...too many who act like heroes but are really money-worshippers." That's pretty much directly accusing heroes as acting like mercenaries(i.e. a neutral party motivated to take part in hostile action for personal gain), which is pretty much exactly what you're saying about "treating heroing as a job". Stain's philosophy is hosed up arbitrary garbage because he simply goes to kill heroes indiscriminately and makes spot judgments if they're worthy of living from moment to moment rather than as a result of any careful observation or scrutiny. Ingenium, by everything we've been shown, is exactly the sort of hero that Stain should deem acceptable; he's motivated by a desire to help people above all else, and wants to be a role model to others like his brother. Stain cut him up in an alley and left him paralyzed. Kanos fucked around with this message at 09:13 on Aug 2, 2017 |
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Aug 2, 2017 09:09
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The setting has been, from the start, a soft critique on modern capitalism, exposited through the portrayal of vigilanteism as a commodity. Excepting Deku, success in the system never been based off good intent: almost everyone's motivations for going into hero academia is personal, rather than an unconditional desire to save people. Nor is it really based off merit, as Shinso's situation makes clear. It is rather based off the ability to market a product, to sell their heroics. And Stain's methods are actually stated to be effective at reducing crime, which to me reads as society as a whole having a lot of pent up frustration against the hero system that Stain's attacks vent out. That is to say, the hero system, with the hierarchy in ability that it demands in its commodified state, is pushing those it discriminates against towards crime. Both Stain's motivations and Shigaraki's frustrations stem from this critique, which is also what makes them sympathetic villains. Stain even has an "ideology" that recognises the problem for what it is. But ultimately they both lash out individually and hope that through their actions, which are of a limited scope*, they will be able to bring the entire institution down, something that is doomed to failure. *You could argue Shigaraki's targeting of All Might also symbolically targets the entire Hero institution. As much as that's true, symbols are replaceable, and All Might himself has made that explicit throughout his mentorship of Deku.
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Aug 2, 2017 10:51
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I'd probably put the crime reduction from Stain's presence down to people being afraid to go out at night due to there being a crazed murderer on the loose; less people being outside means less potential victims. It's the same reason why less crime occurs in the winter in many areas in real life. Basically, the problem with Stain's philosophy is that there isn't a necessary connection between a pure motivation to be a hero and being an effective hero. Endeavor is the presented example here. Personally, he's a loving trainwreck. He's an enormous, self-absorbed rear end in a top hat with an awful obsession that hosed over his family in a big way. On the job, however, he's pretty much a shining paragon of what a hero should be: he's immensely powerful and effective at his job, and not just at the beating up villains part; he's cool-headed, decisive, great at coordinating the efforts of others in useful ways on the spot, mindful of collateral damage, and capable of trusting the judgment of others. Does Endeavor being a huge rear end in a top hat on a personal level mean that he's bad at being a hero? Stain certainly thinks so and calls him a fake, but even one of the direct victims of the worst of Endeavor's failings, Shoto, is willing to acknowledge that Endeavor is really loving good at his job and should be admired for that and learned from. Kanos fucked around with this message at 11:20 on Aug 2, 2017 |
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Aug 2, 2017 11:12
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Endeavor is such a terrible person I wouldn't want to learn anything from him, regardless of how effective he is. His motivations drive his methods and if heroism is supposed to mean something more than being good at beating up villains and rescuing people from disasters anything you pick up from observing him is tainted right at the outset. Simply being around the guy is placing yourself in a toxic environment.
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Aug 2, 2017 12:01
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I watched through the scene there and the dialogue goes as follows (with some snipped out)All Might posted:It's an injury I got from an enemy's attack five years ago Deku posted:Five years ago... Was that when you fought Toxic Chainsaw? All Might posted:You're well-informed, but a punk like that couldn't defeat me. This fight was not made public to the world. I asked that it not be made public. There is a small bit of ambiguity if you wanted to argue it but really it's very clear that he's talking about a separate fight to the Toxic Chainsaw one. People were discussing the Tuskauchi conversation earlier and I rewatched that too. Tsukauchi tells All Might they ran DNA test on the Nomu he fought at USJ. He opens with a very interesting line. Tsukauchi posted:We're not asking for your help on this investigation, so I'd be leaking information, but I felt like I just had to tell you. It's a clue to lead us to the mastermind. Tsukauchi goes on to say that the Nomu isn't just mute but totally incapable of independent thought. Furthermore his DNA matches some petty thug's. All Might asks why this is a lead to the mastermind. Presumably they are speaking about the mastermind behind the League of Villains. Tsukauchi says there is DNA from at least four different people in Nomu, he continues on saying the thug's body has been modified to hold multiple Quirks and his lack of brain power probably comes from that. Here are the interesting direct quotes that follow Tsukauchi posted:Even if different DNA is introduced, unless there is someway it can be completely integrated, the bearer would not have multiple Quirks. You must understand, since you have One For All. It's very likely that there is someone with a Quirk that can give others Quirks. All Might posted:Don't tell me...! Tsukauchi posted:Looking at the circumstances it would be reasonable to assume such. That's why I thought I had to let you know. All Might posted:Has that man... started to move again...
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Aug 2, 2017 12:11
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