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OwlFancier posted:You're responsible for the killing and torture of my brain cells. So is he wrong?
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Aug 5, 2017 19:54
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boner confessor posted:there's a nazi in the white house right now. you're naive There's a long list of bad things Trump is, but Nazi isn't one of them.
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Aug 5, 2017 19:58
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Midig posted:So is he wrong? No clue genuinely, I know Mandela himself was involved in some rather objectionable stuff with targeting civilians as part of his campaign. Though given his actions after his release and his work to dismantle apartheid and build an integrated society in Africa I would be more inclined to question the efficacy of it rather than suggesting he wasn't fighting for a worthwhile cause. I think he's a quite good example of the difference between method and goal. You can fight for a laudable goal with poor methods and you can fight for a terrible goal with otherwise defensible methods. Personally I would suggest that attacking civilians is a bad method to achieve anything not least because I don't think it's going to reliably achieve the effect you want unless your effect is just trying to destroy society. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Aug 5, 2017 |
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Aug 5, 2017 19:58
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fallenturtle posted:There's a long list of bad things Trump is, but Nazi isn't one of them. how clueless are you exactly?  just in case you are actually this clueless https://www.adl.org/education/resources/backgrounders/stephen-bannon-five-things-to-know http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/03/stephen-bannon-fan-french-anti-semite-who-sided-nazis/
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Aug 5, 2017 19:59
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Samovar posted:Yes, because all the KKK did was to go around being mean and rude. They certainly never shot, hung, tortured and murdered the people they loudly proclaimed were sub-human! That was the old KKK. Have you met the new KKK? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q4txN1ut20&t=191s
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Aug 5, 2017 20:09
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:It also doesn't mean that there is. That is NOT my sentiment and I never said it was. I don't support preemptive physical violence... that doesn't mean you can't get at loud as you want. It doesn't mean they shouldn't go unchallenged. It just means I don't think we should be the first to throw a punch. Who What Now posted:Ah yes, the KKK, who as well all know never hurt anybody! And when they do or threaten to law enforcement does their job now a days. Who What Now posted:
If my understanding of the law is correct, its illegal to burn the cross with the intention of intimidate, so no, that's not what I see as a peaceful demonstration. This is what I see:  Now stop flaming liberals in an internet forum just because they support freedom of speech and go and actually protest some loving racists assholes. fallenturtle fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Aug 5, 2017 |
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Aug 5, 2017 20:16
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Edit: Ugh
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Aug 5, 2017 20:21
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I think Nazis did start the conflict, but it was way more then a punch though. We don't have to explain Kristallnacht right?
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Aug 5, 2017 20:34
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noether posted:it's easy to dismiss the kkk and other historically significant white supremacist groups as only being powerful in the past, but they still get up to some pretty nasty poo poo. the far right, including the kkk, have infested american law enforcement in order to harass local minority populations and cover their own asses afterwards, for example, and there's pretty much no way to weed them out entirely. these organizations aren't just has-beens now that civil rights has been "won" or whatever. the whole point of the kkk was to abuse anonymity to get away with murder, and they're still quite adept at that. That's hosed up and we should fight that. I don't think going up to a Klansman at a rally and being the first to throw a punch is going to help much with that.
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Aug 5, 2017 20:39
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Midig posted:I think Nazis did start the conflict, but it was way more then a punch though. We don't have to explain Kristallnacht right? Different Nazis. SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:The problem with Hitler is he painted titties I thought he did landscapes? boner confessor posted:how clueless are you exactly? Sorry, I thought you were talking about Trump. I think Bannon has the power of the little devil sitting on Trump shoulder whispering in his ear more than the actual devil. Certainly we should watch him, and thank God for the leakers, but I think the worst of Bannon will be contained by our system. fallenturtle fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Aug 5, 2017 |
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Aug 5, 2017 20:45
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fallenturtle posted:
You mean the law enforcement that's infested with them? Yeah, sure they will, buddy. And then they'll see the error of their ways after a nice chat over tea and biscuits too.
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Aug 5, 2017 20:53
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Who What Now posted:You mean the law enforcement that's infested with them? Yeah, sure they will, buddy. And then they'll see the error of their ways after a nice chat over tea and biscuits too. How is punching someone in the face going to solve this predicament?
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Aug 5, 2017 21:01
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fallenturtle posted:How is punching someone in the face going to solve this predicament? I mean that's kind of what the police do, only fair that it should be doled out in a more egalitarian manner.
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Aug 5, 2017 21:03
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fallenturtle posted:I thought he did landscapes? I don't remember if anything in that museum he opened was his, but there was a lot of celebration of traditional feminine beauty in his appreciation of the arts. The general conflict here is, is it okay to wait for people to start getting hurt to act. Are you okay with the blood spilled you didn't prevent just to be sure. Is it okay to shoot a guy waving a gun around
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Aug 5, 2017 21:13
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Hitler did decently composed urban landscapes, primarily.
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Aug 5, 2017 21:17
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fallenturtle posted:How is punching someone in the face going to solve this predicament? They stop trying to publicly intimidate non-white people, for one.
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Aug 5, 2017 21:18
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fallenturtle posted:That was the old KKK. Have you met the new KKK? Why should I at all show any respect to people who in any way follow the teachings of the KKK?
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Aug 5, 2017 21:26
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OwlFancier posted:I mean that's kind of what the police do, only fair that it should be doled out in a more egalitarian manner. Not sure what I'm opposing is more egalitarian. SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:I don't remember if anything in that museum he opened was his, but there was a lot of celebration of traditional feminine beauty in his appreciation of the arts. TBH, its just one of the few things I actually remember from the Art History class I took over a decade ago. quote:The general conflict here is, is it okay to wait for people to start getting hurt to act. Are you okay with the blood spilled you didn't prevent just to be sure. Who What Now posted:They stop trying to publicly intimidate non-white people, for one.
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Aug 5, 2017 21:30
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fallenturtle posted:Different Nazis. It is naive to think that such a horrible movement can't appear again. Maybe not under the same name, but difficult conditions can tap into preconsisting racism which sways enough people to put horrible people in power. Luckily Trump is quite neutered. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ylp5iKDFe10
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Aug 5, 2017 21:34
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fallenturtle posted:Punching someone is not going to do that. Spenser is one guy. For every Nazi you punch that's afraid to leave their house (and that's a maybe on that result) there's another to take their place. Didn't realise Nazi's were a renewable resource. Maybe we should start burning them for fuel.
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Aug 5, 2017 21:36
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fallenturtle posted:
I'm not sure I'm capable of rebuking an argument as stupid as "there are literally infinite Nazis". Kudos.
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Aug 5, 2017 21:42
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Scientists believe that much of the unaccounted for mass in the universe might be due to dark energy, however, it is in fact, made of nazis.
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Aug 5, 2017 21:48
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Aug 5, 2017 21:53
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fallenturtle posted:If my understanding of the law is correct, its illegal to burn the cross with the intention of intimidate, so no, that's not what I see as a peaceful demonstration. This is what I see: You're not using a consistent definition of "peaceful" here. Either you include intimidation in your definition of "not peaceful" - which case stuff like the modern KKK definitely apply, since any such group protesting in public areas is inherently intimidation - or you don't, in which case the burning cross would be considered "peaceful."
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Aug 5, 2017 22:04
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Peaceful = legal, obviously.
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Aug 5, 2017 22:14
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Punch a cop, now that's something I can get behind!
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Aug 5, 2017 23:17
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Monglo posted:Punch a cop, now that's something I can get behind! I'll watch the neighborhood you watch the skies
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Aug 5, 2017 23:40
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Ytlaya posted:You're not using a consistent definition of "peaceful" here. Either you include intimidation in your definition of "not peaceful" - which case stuff like the modern KKK definitely apply, since any such group protesting in public areas is inherently intimidation - or you don't, in which case the burning cross would be considered "peaceful." Public protest by a group such as the KKK, even including a cross burning, is not classified as intimidation unto itself. Hate speech is constitutionally protected.This isn't new, nor is it controversial. It's really, really not controversial. Yes, those cases refer to statutes. No, hate speech doesn't give you legal or moral license to commit crimes against the speaker. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Aug 6, 2017 |
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Aug 6, 2017 01:03
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To dispute the point where people just suggested that the alt right would just replace Patreon and more legit sites, with Hatreon or the like, read this article: http://gizmodo.com/the-alt-right-goes-panhandling-1797465499 Relevent section: quote:Whether Wilson considers neo-Nazis the extreme end of his vision or not, Anglin—who, like Southern, also has an active campaign on WeSearchr—is inarguably the highest earner on Hatreon, raking in more than $700 a month. It’s a pittance compared to even moderately successful crowdfunds on the site’s mainstream namesake. (Leftist podcast Chapo Trap House’s Patreon earns nearly two orders of magnitude more.) Wilson sees the road ahead as a difficult one, saying Hatreon “would have to bring in at least 10x more money than it is right now to pay for itself. And I can see scaling being an even bigger headache.” (emphasis mine) Two of his Featured Creators currently have no patrons at all. Forcing these guys to more fringe sites is going to cost these guys big, and may easily overwhelm the ability of their half-assed hate sites to support them. It's a win-win to take a bunch of their support network away and just let them wither in obscurity.
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Aug 6, 2017 01:29
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Discendo Vox posted:Public protest by a group such as the KKK, even including a cross burning, is not classified as intimidation unto itself. Hate speech is constitutionally protected.This isn't new, nor is it controversial. It's really, really not controversial. This is where I love Canada. Hate speech is not only not protected, but can be used as the basis of affirmative defence. A reasonable fear for your life and you can punch the fucker spouting off. Also fighting words statutes. 
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Aug 6, 2017 01:29
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Discendo Vox posted:No, hate speech doesn't give you legal or moral license to commit crimes against the speaker. My impression is that people are debating the moral license or moral obligation to assault such a speaker or commit property damage, and conflating that with legal definitions, perhaps, but I'm not entirely sure. Thank you for statutes. 
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Aug 6, 2017 01:46
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Samovar posted:Why should I at all show any respect to people who in any way follow the teachings of the KKK? Surely you can not respect someone while still refraining from throwing the first punch. Midig posted:It is naive to think that such a horrible movement can't appear again. Maybe not under the same name, but difficult conditions can tap into preconsisting racism which sways enough people to put horrible people in power. Luckily Trump is quite neutered. I don't think its impossible, but I think its not likely. As you said, Trump is quite neutered. We definitely should keep an eye on them and politically fight where we can. fallenturtle fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Aug 6, 2017 |
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Aug 6, 2017 02:08
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rkajdi posted:To dispute the point where people just suggested that the alt right would just replace Patreon and more legit sites, with Hatreon or the like, read this article: this seems to be the case. as loud as they are, there arnt enough of them to keep up momentum. sites like 8chan are practically empty now(for a image board) alot of the reddit boards have gone under too.
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Aug 6, 2017 02:11
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Dapper_Swindler posted:this seems to be the case. as loud as they are, there arnt enough of them to keep up momentum. sites like 8chan are practically empty now(for a image board) alot of the reddit boards have gone under too. That's not quite right. There's not enough ability to support themselves once they are pushed out of the commons and to the fringes. As we can see by transphobes like Gordon Peterson and white nationalists like Sargon, there's more than enough chud welfare as long as you're still allowed on Patreon and Youtube. If these supports go away, these guys will slink back into wherever they are from (or hopefully in Peterson's case, the unemployment office) and complain about the in equity in a corner that normal people can easily ignore and will strangle their support. It makes them invisible to the legion of white failsons looking for any reason they are failures except themselves, which is where the YouTube ignorati's support comes from. rkajdi fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Aug 6, 2017 |
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Aug 6, 2017 02:25
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Praseodymi posted:Didn't realise Nazi's were a renewable resource. Maybe we should start burning them for fuel. Well most of the original ones are dead, so kinda. Who What Now posted:I'm not sure I'm capable of rebuking an argument as stupid as "there are literally infinite Nazis". Kudos. Well lucky for you that's not my argument. Ytlaya posted:You're not using a consistent definition of "peaceful" here. Either you include intimidation in your definition of "not peaceful" - which case stuff like the modern KKK definitely apply, since any such group protesting in public areas is inherently intimidation - or you don't, in which case the burning cross would be considered "peaceful." I don't like either of them, but the law has decided that burning crosses crosses (hee-hee) that line.
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Aug 6, 2017 02:32
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rkajdi posted:To dispute the point where people just suggested that the alt right would just replace Patreon and more legit sites, with Hatreon or the like, read this article: When the big guys like Sargon and Styx are exclusively on Hatreon it will be the real test of how things will go down in regards to Hatreon Pushing extremist ideologues off mainstream platforms isn't necessarily the end for them as you well know They could just take donations of crypto-currencies in the end completely loving your statist final solution for dealing with them
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Aug 6, 2017 02:55
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actually i'm pretty sure The Man would lol forever if youtube racists just traded internet magic eBeans among each other until they were all driven back into the loving embrace of their parent's attics
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Aug 6, 2017 02:58
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fallenturtle posted:Well lucky for you that's not my argument. Then what is your argument? Because mine is that we'll eventually run out of Nazis to punch.
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Aug 6, 2017 02:59
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Intrinsic Field Marshal posted:statist final solution Is that like white genocide for websites
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Aug 6, 2017 03:08
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boner confessor posted:actually i'm pretty sure The Man would lol forever if youtube racists just traded internet magic eBeans among each other until they were all driven back into the loving embrace of their parent's attics An ill informed technologically illiterate hot take
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Aug 6, 2017 03:09
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